One more thing is that if you try to proc eclipse with wrath its much better,maybe even mandatory, to have 3/3 eclipse. Also eclipse is not something you can control trying to force it to proc in bloodlust when even with 3 talents its 60% seems too risky, at least I just spam starfire while refreshing only moonfire for the 3% crit.
How many fights in the 25 mans have unavoidable mechanics that will proc owlkin frenzy?
Naxxramas
Spider Wing
Anub'Rekhan - Corpse scarabs and impale
Grand Widow Faerlina - poison bolt volley and rain of fire
Maexxna - web spray
Abomination Wing
Patchwerk - nothing
Grobbulus - mutating injection
Gluth - decimate
Thaddius - both Stalagg and Feugen can warstomp and Feugen has an AoE mana drain nuke, polarity shifts in phase 2
Deathknight Wing
Instructor Razuvious - disrupting shout
Gothik the Harvester - trainees do arcane explosions, riders have unholy aura
The Four Horsemen - all of the marks, and meteor
Plague Wing
Noth the Plaguebringer - most aoe can be outranged, curse of the plaguebringer probably procs it though
Heigan the Unclean - decrepit fever sometimes during phase changes
Loatheb - Inevitable Doom
Frostwyrm Lair
Sapphiron - frost aura, lifedrain, sometimes the blizzard is unavoidable
Kel'Thuzad - aoe frostbolt, detonate mana
I listed a lot more than the constant auras that deal damage like Sapphiron's frost aura, and many of these probably have a very small impact on Frenzy uptime, but talents spent there seem far from useless in Naxxramas anyway. This reset I am going to experiment a bit more with this spec and see better how much Frenzy uptime I have and if there are mana issues.
Yea, I was thinking that if frenzy procs often enough to go with a build like this at least until wrath is fixed to lower the GCD below 1s and/or they add a wrath + starfire idol. I figure I'd juse use the starfire idol with an IS/MF/SF rotation (dropping IS if it is a DPS increase to do so). This would also help out with mana issues.
If it doesn't proc enough then I'll just stick with 2/3 eclipse using the MF/SFx3/IS/W rotation.
I really don't see the use for Owlkin Freenzy in Naxxramas.
Lets have a realistic view of what happens to you during a full Naxxramas run - Adding numbers of the only wws report I have from Naxx so far.
Naxxramas Spider Wing
Anub'Rekhan - You might be lucky & get hit by a corpse scarab - With me being 4th in damage done to Scarabs, I took 4 incomming hits from them.
Impale knocks you up into the air, efficiently wasting half of the proc.
Grand Widow Faerlina - Poison bolt volley true (wws missing from this fight so can't set an approximate number on). Rain of fire doesn't fall into the category unavoidable mechanics, if you pay attention then this might damage you once a year.
Maexxna - Web spray
"Cast every 40 seconds incapacitating everyone for 8 seconds, and dealing 1,750 - 2,250 Nature damage."
An optimistic guess is that you can do 1 wrathcast boosted by the proc pr kill.
----- Abomination wing
Grobbulus - I had 11 damaging hits on me, average seems to be like 25 though. Lets be optinistic & say you proc 4 times, that would have given me 40seconds with 10% more damage dealt. My number of incomming hits is based on the fight lasting 5mins & 45seconds - Granting an uptime of 11.6%. A 1.16% damage increase for 3 talent points spend.
Gluth - Decimate hits you around 3 times during a kill. Perhaps you get "lucky" & overaggro on some adds to take a few addional hits.
Thaddius - Over 2 attempts (a 1% wipe & a kill) I took 33 hits in a total time of 12minutes & 22seconds. Ignoring the fact that several hits can occur simultaneously & assuming 5 procs, your uptime becomes 6.7%. A 0.67& damage increase.
----- Deathknight Wing
Instructor Razuvious - 16hits over 279seconds. Optimistic again saying 3 procs, uptime becomes 10.8%. A 1.08%damage increase.
Gothik the Harvester - I got hit twice, first time was a mob reflecting a spell back on me & the 2nd time was me tanking Gothik for 1 shadowbolt.
The Four Horsemen - Wws is hopeless for this.
---- Plague Wing
Noth the Plaguebringer - 0 damage taken.
Heigan the Unclean - 2 hits, both me failing to dance.
Loatheb - Unsure - I took damage around 70 times, only 8 of those appear to be an attack on me though - Most of the rest is listed as dots ticking. Can a dot ticking proc it?
----
Sapphiron - Loads of incomming hits from his aura, so if that triggers it you might see a benefit here.
Kel'Thuzad - 19incomming hits over 460 seconds, lets assume that I was lucky & look at the caster being hit the most. Then we have 30 incomming hits over 460 seconds, providing us 5 procs with some luck. A total uptime of 10.9%, which equal a damage increase of 1.09%.
-----
We might disagree, but I find a situational talent that might provide you with an optimistic 0.5% damage pr. point very unattactive. To free points for it you would have to skip allmost all mana talents & improved faerie fire wouldn't be an option.
Its a nice tool for pvp & solo aoegrinding though.
I have to agree with Ashaera on this one. Owlkin Frenzy is a talent with the potential for value in PVE situations but Naxxramas is not the zone you would really use it on. Four Horsemen, Sapphiron, and Loatheb are the only fights that would trigger it enough. With dual-spec you could potentially have a specialty frenzy spec for those fights but you'd be wasting the opportunity to switch to healing on the fly.
Sunwell was a much more appropriate zone for frenzy; every encounter had unavoidable aoe damage some almost constantly ticking. It's really a talent we'll have to reevaluate when the new raid zones are released and even on a boss-by-boss casis.
I personally go for a wrath until eclipse then starfire spam rotation. With MF/IS/Starfall/Treants worked in at the appropriate times of course. I've tested on test dummies with nearly all rotations and find this to be the best self buffed(raid buffs might benefit one rotation more than another, I don't know). Here is a WWS of our last patchwerk:
What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.
I tried this and I found it to be of no DPS loss whatsoever during my HCs. It increased my DPS during Heroism/Bloodlust. I'm going to run on a dummy later and see if it's a better option to use. Sadly the random crit factor makes it so hard to say if it's really an increase or not.
I'm starting to feel that Starfall atleast is excess to requirements for trash/heroic aoe. It's probably going to shave less than two seconds off trash packs worth aoeing unless you're the only aoe capable caster and it has a 3 minute cooldown so it's only up 1-3 times between bosses. Typhoon - sure I love it for heroics and naxx trash, it's every 20 seconds it can help with positioning and if needed the knockback can be prevented with shockwave or frostnova.
When considering Starfall for raid DPS would it not be worth taking into consideration the fact that it procs Natures Grace on crits? Especially on fights with 2 or more targets (there are many in Naxx), Starfall would almost guarantee each Starfire will be cast under the effect of NG during its duration.
I'm not sure how to add this to my evaluations of Starfall (and it may be negligible) but it's one more thing to consider.
I like Starfall for several reasons - Any encounter with aoe (also stuns!), faster trinket procs, Nature's Grace etc.
Atleast keeping it until someone does a proper testing of Imp. Faerie Fire.
Yesterday I managed to get my last two tier7 pieces, so I am at full tier7 now (10-man). With the added 5% crit to wrath and SF I should be at around 34% crit for base with theese two spells, giving me 64% during eclipse.
So I am thinking of switching to a W/SF/SF rotation with MF only. Any thoughts on this.
I have been going back and forth a lot between W/SF/SF and SF/W/SF. My biggest problem before was not beeing able to proc eclipse at a regular time with Wrath and beeing "RNG/unlucky" during SF eclipse. But with the added 5% I should be getting more consistant results with W/SF/SF
I read through this thread and see a few WWS parts with extremely good WWS parses, and then I look at their gear and it seems very similar to mine, and I look at the casting frequencies and again seem pretty similar to mine, then I look at the DPS and they are way higher than mine.
At this point I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but I must be messing something up.
Full night WWS on Malygos first night of attempts/kill and Sartharion kill with one drake up: WWS Parse
I am not actually raiding with IotRG as it is only .5% crit, I am using the old Starfire idol until the new spellpower one drops. Should I consider using the Badge moonfire one? I am also going to over hit a little since the spriest and I do not always attack the same target as shown with my average 3% “Mitigated” on the night, I figure adding to 11 or 12% on my char sheet will get me to 15-16% hit before the misery debuff, and if the misery debuff is missed I am only getting partial resists.
I am considering dropping 3/3 CF and picking up the last point in gale winds (helpful for trash not really on single target boss fights) and picking up 2 points in brambles for 10% extra treant dmg.
On the night above (not suing treants every CD they were around ~280k dmg, so those 2 talent points would get me 28k dmg, would this outweigh putting 2 points in CF for 2% haste? Would either of these increase my single target DPS on boss fights?
On rotation:
I have been using MF, SFx3, Wrath through Eclipse (or until an eclipse if one of my first 3 SFs did not crit), SF till eclipse iCD is up then Wrath till SF Eclipse procs rotation.
I throw up IS/Starfall if I have to move around so I have IS glyphed (along with MF and SF) and have been saving treants for a hero, but will start using them every 2min.
I am going to try the MF, Wrath till eclipse, SF rotation as I am finally getting enough crit where I feel it would proc enough.
Looking for any comments on the above questions as well as advice, thanks!
You should be comparing your DPS on Patchwerk, not Sartharion/Malygos. There is too much happening in those fights to be able to compare DPS directly really.
Having said that, looking at Sartharion (bit less of a weird fight for DPS than Malygos):
If you find that you have lower DPS than other players on those encounters it is likely to be because you need to maximise your DPS time. Use instants while moving, and move as little as is humanly possible. If you have to move and have a choice, wait until a good time for your instants. If you don't have a choice, wait for ticks of instants before refreshing to avoid 4-5 seconds between ticks. Your uptime on IS during the Sarth kill is awful - 28 ticks of a potential 'perfect' ~190 (on a single target). With the Glyph you should be looking for 100% uptime really due to the increased damage. For comparison on a very similar length Sartharion, I had 73 ticks, and that's just using it while moving as an extra instant due to not having the glyph.
IotRG is 0.5% crit to all your spellcasters, including healers. It's worth it until you get the Naxx starfire idol imo, and then in 25 mans its probably still more worth using IotRG.
CF > Brambles if you ask me. Treants are too easily killed on a lot of fights to bother improving them, and thorns DPS is pretty low for most fights unless you're looking at a prot paladin.
On hit you should be going with either 10% hit (+4% talents, +3% misery/iff) or 13% hit (+4% talents). You can either rely on 3% hit being up or not. If you can't rely on it being up, you should almost certainly pick up IFF, as it'll help you and all your DPS casters a lot. I'd suggest the 2 points (from cf/brambles/whatever) + a point from eclipse.
As an aside, I'm not quite sure why you're doing 25 mans without any upgrades from Heroics/Craftables/Quest items though. You're using fully level 70 gear other than 25 man Naxx upgrades? I assume you just hit 80, otherwise that's just slack :P
You should be comparing your DPS on Patchwerk, not Sartharion/Malygos. There is too much happening in those fights to be able to compare DPS directly really.
Having said that, looking at Sartharion (bit less of a weird fight for DPS than Malygos):
If you find that you have lower DPS than other players on those encounters it is likely to be because you need to maximise your DPS time. Use instants while moving, and move as little as is humanly possible. If you have to move and have a choice, wait until a good time for your instants. If you don't have a choice, wait for ticks of instants before refreshing to avoid 4-5 seconds between ticks. Your uptime on IS during the Sarth kill is awful - 28 ticks of a potential 'perfect' ~190 (on a single target). With the Glyph you should be looking for 100% uptime really due to the increased damage. For comparison on a very similar length Sartharion, I had 73 ticks, and that's just using it while moving as an extra instant due to not having the glyph.
IotRG is 0.5% crit to all your spellcasters, including healers. It's worth it until you get the Naxx starfire idol imo, and then in 25 mans its probably still more worth using IotRG.
CF > Brambles if you ask me. Treants are too easily killed on a lot of fights to bother improving them, and thorns DPS is pretty low for most fights unless you're looking at a prot paladin.
On hit you should be going with either 10% hit (+4% talents, +3% misery/iff) or 13% hit (+4% talents). You can either rely on 3% hit being up or not. If you can't rely on it being up, you should almost certainly pick up IFF, as it'll help you and all your DPS casters a lot. I'd suggest the 2 points (from cf/brambles/whatever) + a point from eclipse.
As an aside, I'm not quite sure why you're doing 25 mans without any upgrades from Heroics/Craftables/Quest items though. You're using fully level 70 gear other than 25 man Naxx upgrades? I assume you just hit 80, otherwise that's just slack :P
A patchwerk WWS Gear has changed a bit since this raid though....
I was only using IS when I was forced to move, I was not aiming for 100% uptime, even with the glyph as I thought it was a DPS loss, I will work on 100% uptime though.
On the aside, we literally leveled to 80 and startied raiding, we were all in full Sunwell and T6 so the green quest rewards were not upgrades (except in stam). Now that we have fully cleared all of the raids currently out, I can sit back and start looking for upgrades in heroics, etc.
I am finding a lot of gear with either crit or haste on it though, I would be very interested in eharing what kind of itemization points other are using. (i.e, spellpower = 100, hit = 115. haste = ???, etc).
Thanks for the reply, I will probably end up sticking with CF, although still interested to see everyone else's thoughts!
What meta gems are you all using? Chaotic Skyflare Diamond looks to be probably the best choice for overall DPS, but Ember Skyflare Diamond is also appealing because it doesn't require any pesky blue sockets. Unfortunately, nobody on my server seems to have that pattern yet.
It seems to me that a number of the things suggested give you better numbers maybe over the raid, however in my eyes the things that count are in boss fights where it is more typically 1 target rather than multiple.
In terms of progression it is the boss fights that pose problems not AoE trash pulls Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
would stand to reason to be the best spec for those conditions with a possibility at changing Nature's Reach for Imp MF. depending on your Glyphs.
If someone has a Reason why they think AoE moves imps or treants would be a better Single target dps boost, then please illustrate it. I don't have math at my back to straighten my point this spec just seemed the most logical for those ends.
treants are amazing single target dps. on this parse i figured we would kill it right at 3 minutes so i only cast them once (we had a dps disconnect so it was slightly longer than 3 minutes). the spec i used was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft so it was more focused on single target. mana regen talents are more or less useless for me at this stage of raiding but i would feel uncomfortable speccing out of intensity and omen (especially omen due to hurricane). oh and i made sure shamans popped hero the instant they came out so yea..
What meta gems are you all using? Chaotic Skyflare Diamond looks to be probably the best choice for overall DPS, but Ember Skyflare Diamond is also appealing because it doesn't require any pesky blue sockets.
The dps increase from using Chaotic over Ember makes socketing 2 purple or green gems worthwhile. In an ideal world, I would use Purified Twilight Opals (Power, Spirit), but they're not yet implemented. Probably the next best bet is Intricate Forest Emerald (8 Haste, 8 Spirit) or Shining Forest Emerald (8 Hit, 8 Spirit) if you need the +hit. Those two blue spots wouldn't be a horrible place to pick up +hit if you're hurting for it.
I get bloodlusted. Eclipse isn't active or on cooldown. I have about 27% crit on starfire and wrath (working on that).
While bloodlusted, using wrath seems suboptimal due to the 1 sec global cooldown.
Do I cast a few wraths and hope for eclipse to proc to use starfire?
Do I just cast starfire and ignore wrath entirely? Or do I use starfire and use wrath under eclipse?
I have been wondering that also, I just tend to go about my regular rotation using wrath to proc eclipse, but if it does not happen within five or six casts then I go to starfire and ignore the eclipse proc. (I do not have any numbers to back this up. It is just what I have been doing)
11/26/08, 6:22 AM
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