Moonkin Raiding - Page 3

Unknownchamp · 11/24/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ripuanewhole

What do people think of the spec below for level 80 raiding to start.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=061119050406

One slight change tho, take out starfall and the 1 pt in genesis and put those 2 pts in Nature's Reach

I can't view this while at work because of content filtering... *grumble, grumble*

But to me 1 pt in genesis is a waste of a point especially for 1% increased duration.

Kuruk · 11/24/08, 2:23 PM

Erragal makes a great point here. I was one of those people who thought "trash didn't matter" and was planning to skip AOE talents completely but the combination of the discussion on those forums, the testimonials from people raiding already and my personal experience of using those talents have changed my mind completely.

We have became one of the best AOErs and those talents can help both speed up trash clearing time and help on boss encounters where adds are present.

Whilst I am still some way away from starting endgame, as I didn't have a lot of time to level, in my instance experience so far (cleared most of pre-heroic Northrend instances) Typhoon and Hurricane have been very useful. Typhoon especially is fantastic because of its instant high burst damage and buying a little extra time on "oh shit" situations thanks to pushback.

Alerian, the second Eclipse point should definitely be worth it.

Improved IS might be better than Celestial Focus, however the recent discovery of CF buff being multiplicative might turn the tables.

Ripuanewhole read the discussion in the talent thread - you are making some very bad choices.

Lord BEEF · 11/24/08, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Frenzi

Mages seem to be the worst off at the moment, on Gluth last night (which Typhoon absolutely owns on BTW!) our mages were whining about being OOM when I was on 50% mana with Innervate and Pot still available.

Mages that spec for Blizzard can do just as well as any AOE class, and do some things that no other class can. The problem for them is that they have to skip some single target DPS talents to really take advantage of it.

Fully talented Blizzard can be 60%+ crit in some situations, slow the targets to 15% movement speed, and periodically stun.

khel · 11/25/08, 6:50 AM

The way I have begun to handle eclipse and my dps rotation is a bit different than I have seen mentioned so far.

When Eclipse procs, you should always be already casting your next spell. If you are chain casting Starfires and Eclipse procs, then you will finish your next starfire before switching to wraths to make the most use of the proc. Similarly, if you are chain casting wraths then once Eclipse procs, you finish off your next wrath cast then switch to Starfires.

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.

Ulthwithian · 11/25/08, 8:08 AM

As a second to what BEEF says, Blizzard is very powerful for Mages who spec for it now. Something that he didn't mention is that, fully talented, Blizzard applies Winter's Chill on every mob it hits, with every pulse of the spell. Combined with a Moonkin throwing Hurricane, the AoE potential of those classes is intense.

In that circumstance, Typhoon is also useful if a mob makes it out of the Blizzard, as it can push them right back into it. I must agree with those who find Typhoon an incredibly useful skill to have. I am extremely pleased with Moonkin AoE damage now, and it shines brightest in certain pre-80 dungeons.

My favorite move to date (still leveling) has been to use Starfall to pull all of the boss adds in Azjol-Nerub to me for a quick Hurricane burn-down.

Unknownchamp · 11/25/08, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by khel

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.

This is a very interesting thought. I'd be curious to see how this compares. I should hopefully start raiding next week. But if anyone could test this and provide some numbers that would be great!

Korben · 11/25/08, 11:49 AM

Twisting wraths and starfires does sound interesting. That would make eclipse procs a little easier, assuming it doesn't matter which eclipse procs. Also if you're using the moonfire glyph, it should still give you the full duration extension except possibly when wrath eclipse procs.

Aside from "real world" testing, what is the current simulation that is being used?

Erdluf · 11/25/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Korben

Aside from "real world" testing, what is the current simulation that is being used?

I believe WrathCalcs and Rawr are using static estimates of the number of casts required to proc eclipse (at 40% crit, it takes an average of 2.5 SF to proc 3/3 Eclipse), and then adding an extra cast of the "wrong" spell to handle reaction time. Adjusting those calculations for "twisting" should not be too hard, but would be a bit time consuming.

Simulationcraft works off of a spell priority list. It is a simulator, and uses multiple runs to compute average statistics. It handles reaction times. If its priority list has any support for weaving, I don't know how to invoke it.

thedopefishlives · 11/25/08, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

I believe WrathCalcs and Rawr are using static estimates of the number of casts required to proc eclipse (at 40% crit, it takes an average of 2.5 SF to proc 3/3 Eclipse), and then adding an extra cast of the "wrong" spell to handle reaction time. Adjusting those calculations for "twisting" should not be too hard, but would be a bit time consuming.

Simulationcraft works off of a spell priority list. It is a simulator, and uses multiple runs to compute average statistics. It handles reaction times. If its priority list has any support for weaving, I don't know how to invoke it.

Spell twisting would basically be an extra option in Rawr. It would be doable, but it would take quite a bit of time, and I'm honestly not sure about how big the benefit would be.

Khalanis · 11/25/08, 12:23 PM

well, three real question as to the #s viability of twisting.
1) Is it better, worse, or similar DPS to twist or straight cast?(before the eclipse)
2) What is the difference between a wrath hit and an eclipsed starfire hit, and vice verse.(What's the gain for starting the eclipse proc with the buffed spell vs non-buffed)
3) Is the wrath or SF eclipse a better use of the cooldown? Or are they so close together it doesn't really matter?

These are the values you'd have to look @ to see if there is a benefit.(Other than that warm fuzzy feeling that you used the whole eclipse proc for it's benefit =P)

Kuruk · 11/25/08, 12:58 PM

Regarding spell twisting, isn't Starfire-Eclipse a much bigger DPS increase than Wrath-Eclipse?

ryttingm · 11/25/08, 1:18 PM

I am attempting to update my simulator for level 80. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find out how crit scales with intellect at level 80. At level 70 80 intellect provided 1% crit, but my druid is only level 77 so I don't have the final scaling at level 80. (it is clear that it isn't staying at 80 int per 1%). Anyone who knows this number? In addition, I'm not sure the base crit chance is still the same. It used to be that chance to crit = 1.85 + int/80 + critRating/22.08. I know that the critRating scaling goes to 45.91 at level 80, but I'm having a hard time with the rest of the formula. Looking at tooltips of druids at level 80 it looks like the formula is 1.8 + int/164.286 + critRating/45.91.

edit: I have found the answer here http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

• Hamlet · 11/25/08, 3:06 PM

Question on rotations:
I've been tinkering with specs/rotations in Rawr quite a bit as we get started with WLK raiding. With my current setup (think it's not in Armory as I was Resto yesterday, but still mostly SWP gear), Rawr recommends a IS/MF/W rotation, which I'm going to try tonight.

Firstly, just to be clear, the "W" means, "Wrath to proc a Starfire-Eclipse, but still chain SF during the Eclipse CD," right?

What exactly is the right way to play this? After putting up MF and IS, do I cast 3 SF's to extend the MF fully ("risking" a Wrath-Eclipse)? Or jump straight into Wrath spam (risking letting the MF tick out before Eclipse procs)? Similarly, what's the deal with refreshing DoT's around Eclipse (since they frequently are falling off just as, or soon after, Eclipse procs)? Just ignore them until the Eclipse is over?

Finally, as anyone done the numbers on Wrathing during Bloodlust (which wastes some NG procs) to get a sweet Bloodlusted SF-Eclipse?

skeldi · 11/25/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by khel

The way I have begun to handle eclipse and my dps rotation is a bit different than I have seen mentioned so far.

When Eclipse procs, you should always be already casting your next spell. If you are chain casting Starfires and Eclipse procs, then you will finish your next starfire before switching to wraths to make the most use of the proc. Similarly, if you are chain casting wraths then once Eclipse procs, you finish off your next wrath cast then switch to Starfires.

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.

the problem with that I believe is the wrath + nature's grace problem. if you're wasting nature's grace procs on wraths, you're not using it to the fullest extent (except under eclipse, when wrath's increased damage outweighs the damage lost from haste), correct?

• Hamlet · 11/25/08, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by skeldi

the problem with that I believe is the wrath + nature's grace problem. if you're wasting nature's grace procs on wraths, you're not using it to the fullest extent (except under eclipse, when wrath's increased damage outweighs the damage lost from haste), correct?

I was under the impression that the GCD-shortening effect of NG makes it perfectly workable with Wrath, except when under the effect of Bloodlust.