Moonkin Raiding - Page 34

Boytaur · 02/07/09, 8:33 PM

Anyone having trouble with the current itemization of hit, especially if Tauren (no Draenei). Plugging the numbers I get from WrathCalcs (SP = 1.26, Crit = 0.71, Haste = 1.04, Spirit = 0.21, Int = 0.42, Hit = 0) into LootRank (Loot Rank for WotLK), and assuming we want 4 piece without legs, it looks like BIS is:

Head: [Valorous Dreamwalker Cover]
Neck: [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]
Shoulders: [Valorous Dreamwalker Mantle]
Back: [Pennant Cloak]
Chest: [Valorous Dreamwalker Vestments]
Wrist: [Unsullied Cuffs]
Hands: [Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards]
Waist: [Leash of Heedless Magic]
Legs: [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] or [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance]
Feet: [Footsteps of Malygos]
Finger1: [Signet of Manifested Pain]
Finger2: [Band of Channeled Magic]
Trinket1: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
Trinket2:[Dying Curse] or [Embrace of the Spider] or [Sundial of the Exiled]
Main Hand: [Torch of Holy Fire]
Offhand: [Surplus Limb] or [Matriarch's Spawn]
Idol: [Idol of the Shooting Star]

Taking the hit version of each item leaves us with 307 hit with icewalker, which is 44 over the cap. We could replace [Surplus Limb] with [Matriarch's Spawn], but this is barely an upgrade. We would really want to drop [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] for [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance] or [Dying Curse] for a DPS trinket, but either of these choices would put us below cap (even if we enchant hit to gloves). So, is the best answer right now really to be almost 2% over cap? I was 2% over cap,so I've dropped a point in Balance of Power, but it's not like that extra talent point is great either, and with the BIS gear above, we wouldn't even be 2% over. Any thoughts?

Kupeludo · 02/08/09, 1:37 AM

Maybe you could give up dying curse for one of the other dps trinkets, and eat some snapper extremes or use [Cincture of Polarity]?

Calaziar · 02/08/09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Even if there's a Shadow priest? Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Assume there is a competent Shadow Priest in the raid and no Feral or other source of FF. Is it worth casting IFF for the 3% crit buff? If the answer is yes, at what level of crit would it become a waste of time to cast IFF.

I'm speaking purely in personal dps terms here. I realize melee dps will benefit from the debuff the spell casts. I've read through most of the Moonkin threads and apologize if this has been answered elsewhere.

Ashaera · 02/08/09, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Calaziar

Assume there is a competent Shadow Priest in the raid and no Feral or other source of FF. Is it worth casting IFF for the 3% crit buff? If the answer is yes, at what level of crit would it become a waste of time to cast IFF.

I'm speaking purely in personal dps terms here.

For personal dps no -- For raid dps yes.

Eilt · 02/09/09, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Boytaur

Anyone having trouble with the current itemization of hit, especially if Tauren (no Draenei). Plugging the numbers I get from WrathCalcs (SP = 1.26, Crit = 0.71, Haste = 1.04, Spirit = 0.21, Int = 0.42, Hit = 0) into LootRank (Loot Rank for WotLK), and assuming we want 4 piece without legs, it looks like BIS is:

...loot was here...

Taking the hit version of each item leaves us with 307 hit with icewalker, which is 44 over the cap. We could replace [Surplus Limb] with [Matriarch's Spawn], but this is barely an upgrade. We would really want to drop [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] for [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance] or [Dying Curse] for a DPS trinket, but either of these choices would put us below cap (even if we enchant hit to gloves). So, is the best answer right now really to be almost 2% over cap? I was 2% over cap,so I've dropped a point in Balance of Power, but it's not like that extra talent point is great either, and with the BIS gear above, we wouldn't even be 2% over. Any thoughts?

Personally, I am planning on:
Head: [Valorous Dreamwalker Cover]
Neck: [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]
Shoulders: [Valorous Dreamwalker Mantle]
Legs: [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]
Trinket1:[Dying Curse]
-----These items provide 263 hit rating------

This will reach the hit cap for me, which leaves me wearing:
Back: [Pennant Cloak]
Chest: [Valorous Dreamwalker Vestments]
Wrist: [Unsullied Cuffs]
Hands: [Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards]
Waist: [Leash of Heedless Magic]
Feet: [Footsteps of Malygos]
Ring1: [Signet of Manifested Pain]
Ring2: [Band of Channeled Magic]
Trinket2: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
Mainhand: [Wraith Strike] (Possible Torch if we get enough of them to drop so that healers won't need them)
Offhand: [Matriarch's Spawn]
Idol: [Idol of the Shooting Star]

The Dying curse is a REALLY strong trinket, especially if you need the hit, so using it to reach the hit cap is not really hurting you. (Considering weights where spellpower is the highest value, this trinket offers a ton of it in procs.)

Humbaba · 02/09/09, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by pavcc

I was just thinking about the upcoming dual-spec abilities. IMHO, we're goint to be told "2nd skill tree --> resto".

I just thought about becoming a feral-DD (farming, PVP, some bosses still to come).

OK, I will need to collect 2 complete gears, but why not?
Or maybe it will be more helpful to have some kind of "max-DPS" setup, and a less mana-intense setup; both moonkin?
What are your ideas about dual-speccing?

What does this have to do with this thread? Dual speccing might save me some gold, but who cares, gold is ridiculously easy to get.

Mastahshake · 02/09/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Eilt

Personally, I am planning on:
Head: [Valorous Dreamwalker Cover]
Neck: [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]
Shoulders: [Valorous Dreamwalker Mantle]
Legs: [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]
Trinket1:[Dying Curse]
-----These items provide 263 hit rating------

This will reach the hit cap for me, which leaves me wearing:
Back: [Pennant Cloak]
Chest: [Valorous Dreamwalker Vestments]
Wrist: [Unsullied Cuffs]
Hands: [Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards]
Waist: [Leash of Heedless Magic]
Feet: [Footsteps of Malygos]
Ring1: [Signet of Manifested Pain]
Ring2: [Band of Channeled Magic]
Trinket2: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
Mainhand: [Wraith Strike] (Possible Torch if we get enough of them to drop so that healers won't need them)
Offhand: [Matriarch's Spawn]
Idol: [Idol of the Shooting Star]

The Dying curse is a REALLY strong trinket, especially if you need the hit, so using it to reach the hit cap is not really hurting you. (Considering weights where spellpower is the highest value, this trinket offers a ton of it in procs.)

All of your gear seems almost completely optimal (exception of wraith strike as you pointed out). However I have question of itemization, since haste isn't necessarily optimal for us boomies until we hit a certain amount of crit. Would you consider using [Accursed Spine] instead of the Matriarch's spawn? Or is the amount of crit on the spine really superfluous for your current gear mark?

dukes · 02/09/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mastahshake

since haste isn't necessarily optimal for us boomies until we hit a certain amount of crit

If you read some of the rest of the Moonkin threads you'll see this has been covered - basically because of the conversion rate being better for haste, and the large amount of crit gained through raid buffs, haste will always be better than crit for all current intents and purposes in a raiding situation.

Eilt · 02/09/09, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

If you read some of the rest of the Moonkin threads you'll see this has been covered - basically because of the conversion rate being better for haste, and the large amount of crit gained through raid buffs, haste will always be better than crit for all current intents and purposes in a raiding situation.

This. And on top of this, the Spawn offers more base spellpower (yes, it is only 1 extra, but it is more) on top of a considerable more amount of spirit which will also be converted to spellpower. Rounding for implicity:

Matriarch:
+42 Stamina
+41 Intellect
+43 Spirit (~6 spellpower)
~1% Haste
66 spellpower

Accursed:
+42 Stamina
+41 Intellect
+32 Spirit (~5 spellpower)
~1% crit
65 spellpower

So you trade 1% crit for 1% haste and some added spellpower which throws the battle even more towards Matriarch. So if I got to choose I would always pick Matriarch, but if the spine dropped and I needed an OH I would still take it. The two are very close.

Irondruid · 02/09/09, 4:22 PM

I am sure that if I read every single thread on this forum I may come across someone with the same problem as me but I tend to go blind after awhile and miss things from reading 20+ pages of responses on information that I have no idea about.

So Patchwork from what I am seeing is the one of the few raid bosses you can do to truely judge how well your dps is. I know that on 10 man I can only dish out about 3k where in 25 man I am only doing a few hundred more, somewhere around 3.5 - 3.8. Seldomly do I ever hit 4k or above. Heck I can barely reach 4k on Thaddius or Loethab.

My current rotation after reading many many threads is: IFF, IS, MF, Wrath Spam until Eclipse Proc, then MF,SF, then spam SF refreshing MF as needed until my Addon says that my Hidden Eclipes timer has almost expired and I repeat the process over again.

Maybe my gear is not up to par as the people doing 4k+ DPS but I am all level 80 Epics. I was told that HR>Haste>SP>Crit so I have gemmed and enchanted accordingly. I am with talents and IFF hit capped, I think I have like 10.20% Hit + 3% IFF + 4% Talent. Haste I believe is around 400 or something and crit is like 28%.

I do get spammed alot with whispers about how I am failing at a Moonkin by other classes because my talent tree is so messed up apparently so I respec all the time to find the best way to improve my DPS.

Reading these forums have improved my abilities alot already being that I played Feral for since the beggining of BC. I only post in hopes that I can get some type of feedback on what I am doing wrong or how to improve my DPS to be more of a benefactor to our Guilds Raids. If I receive nothing but more bashings on how I ruining the Moonkin Spec then so be it, not like I have not heard it all before.

• Adoriele · 02/09/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Irondruid

My current rotation after reading many many threads is: IFF, IS, MF, Wrath Spam until Eclipse Proc, then MF,SF, then spam SF refreshing MF as needed until my Addon says that my Hidden Eclipes timer has almost expired and I repeat the process over again.

The first rule of Moonkin DPS: Thou shalt hold thine Eclipse procs inviolate. Seriously. If you CAN cast a Starfire, and Eclipse is up, there is no earthly reason to be doing anything else. Do not refresh your DoTs. Do not cast Typhoon. Do not cast FoN. I'd say do not cast Rebirth, but there are raid leaders out there who would eat me alive for this. As Hamlet has mentioned, the best time to refresh your DoTs is just before Eclipse goes down, when it's impossible to fit another one in. Refresh both. If you're not comfortable with low DoT uptime (and I haven't quite mathed out which case is better), refresh both again just before Eclipse ICD finishes. Yes, this means refreshing Moonfire before it runs its course.

The second rule of Moonkin DPS: Take as little time to proc Eclipse as possible. Note that this does not mean "Oh, Wrath has failed to proc Eclipse for the last 10 seconds, I should switch to Starfire and force a Wrath proc, it's alright". Wrath and Starfire have almost identical expected time to proc. This means that, no matter what time it is, or how long you've been casting wrath without a proc, both spells will, on average, take exactly as much more time. It seems like less time because you're casting fewer spells, but trust me, it's not. This rule also covers refreshing DoTs when the ICD is up; namely, don't. Refresh them just before the ICD finishes instead, because that's free time that doesn't affect your Eclipse uptime.

• Hamlet · 02/09/09, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

The second rule of Moonkin DPS: Take as little time to proc Eclipse as possible. Note that this does not mean "Oh, Wrath has failed to proc Eclipse for the last 10 seconds, I should switch to Starfire and force a Wrath proc, it's alright". Wrath and Starfire have almost identical expected time to proc. This means that, no matter what time it is, or how long you've been casting wrath without a proc, both spells will, on average, take exactly as much more time. It seems like less time because you're casting fewer spells, but trust me, it's not. This rule also covers refreshing DoTs when the ICD is up; namely, don't. Refresh them just before the ICD finishes instead, because that's free time that doesn't affect your Eclipse uptime.

I refresh DoT's when the ICD is up if for some reason they're down. Which should be rare, since IS should be coming down ~14s after the Eclipse ICD ends, and MF will last ~9s even if you only cast it once as Eclipse ends. The expectation time to proc Eclipse is ~4s. But I still have slightly ad hoc Moonfire usage, as I've mentioned before, and I think it's an open question exactly what's optimal.

Your point is right and has to be generally emphasized to people, to at least try to stem the tide of "I cast W until Eclipse and then SF why do I only do 3k DPS" posts. The goal of the cycle is to cast as many Eclipsed Starfires per unit time as you can, so avoid wasting Eclipse time and avoid unnecessarily extending the time-to-proc (e.g. the denominator in your Eclipse uptime).

Query: If the right solution is to cast only one Moonfire per cycle (for 24/(30+x) uptime), is it best to cast that Moonfire near the end of the Eclipse cooldown rather than at the beginning, so it's up during Eclipse?

Cube · 02/09/09, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Query: If the right solution is to cast only one Moonfire per cycle (for 24/(30+x) uptime), is it best to cast that Moonfire near the end of the Eclipse cooldown rather than at the beginning, so it's up during Eclipse?

I'd imagine right before the end of the CD rather than at the beginning, for two reasons.
1. You're not losing any more time proccing eclipse
2. For people with higher latency, it gives a "barrier" between getting off that last SF and the cooldown ending, making misfires less likely.

• Hamlet · 02/09/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cube

I'd imagine right before the end of the CD rather than at the beginning, for two reasons.
1. You're not losing any more time proccing eclipse
2. For people with higher latency, it gives a "barrier" between getting off that last SF and the cooldown ending, making misfires less likely.

1. To be clear, I'm comparing casting it right as Eclipse ends (specially, immediately following the IS that I keep telling people they should be casting right as soon as you can no longer fit in one more Eclipsed Starfire) to casting it immediately before the second IS just before the Eclipse CD ends. In neither case are you taking time to refresh it when you could be trying to proc Eclipse.

2. This is helpful. I really like being able to finish a Starfire <3s before the CD ends, use an instant (IS), and throw a Wrath that's going to travel and hit the boss just as the CD ends. No risk of error.

The risk with casting MF right then is that if you take too long to proc the Eclipse, you miss the MF extension window. As noted above however, the odds of going 10+ seconds with no Eclipse proc are very small.

Daylis · 02/10/09, 6:47 PM

I'm not certain, but i think i remember reading here of a most likely gear mess-up in rawr that evaluates crit rather high.
I'm at a point where i've quite a wide selection of rings (except Manifested pain 25KT) and i've been playing around with rawr trying to determine which is best. Results are a bit suspicious to me.

Here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
(spec is pvp, i've correct pve one normaly)

As you can see, i'm low on SP, relatively high on haste and crit. The two rings i'm wearing atm are the two rawr is saying are best for me.

I'm mainly deciding between Titanium Spellshock ring, Lost Jewel, Signet of Kirin Tor, Band of channeled magic and Ring of the Fated.

Now, rawr places them in that exact order. One reason is obvious and logical = higher spellpower. But not that both spellshock and lost jewel are high on crit (and pretty much equal to rawr) while others lag behind.
With my higher level of haste and low sp i'd expect the first, but i've also fairly decent crit, yet it seems to value it high still.

Thoughts?