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Old 02/16/09, 9:46 AM   #541
Eilt
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Night Elf Druid
 
Bloodhoof
As Daylis just mentioned there ARE situations where pulling aggro is possible, The two biggest ones for me are sarth 3d and the few 6min maly attempts.

On sarth 3d we do a big burst on Sarth before vesperon ever lands and our DK is spec'd for pure survivability which hinders his TPS slightly, at the same time on Maly we start DPSing before Maly really lands so our pally that tanks him is at a disadvantage, I had IS. MF, and 2 wrath casts when I got an eclipse proc, then the next 2 SFs crit for about ~13k and I had to stop attacking because I was almost to 130% threat already.

Now once the tank has established aggro I won't ever catch up, but on fights where you have to go all out at the very start, getting an eclipse proc and a string of SF crits will have a large chance of pulling aggro if the tank has to move/misses/any number of bad things happen.

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Old 02/16/09, 4:02 PM   #542
Humbaba
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Humbalo
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by Eilt View Post
On sarth 3d we do a big burst on Sarth before vesperon ever lands
I assume you mean Tenebron?

Tangentially, why would you do this? Sarth is a joke when the drakes are dead. Why risk a wipe to shave 30s off a fight? And why burn cooldowns so early?

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Old 02/16/09, 5:02 PM   #543
Beregon
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eitrigg
Originally Posted by Daylis View Post
There's so little point in not taking 2/2 Nature's Reach it's almost a waste of time to discuss it.... i'll take Nature's reach over .. genesis? anyday.
Compared to what I would consider the standard spec, your tradeoff for 2/2 vs 1/2 Nature's Reach is a 2/3 vs 3/3 in Improved Insect Swarm. So, for that extra 3yd range you're giving up ~1% crit on your Starfire (times Moonfire uptime percentage).

I have no way to give a hard number to the additional casts you get for having the range and it will vary from fight to fight. A single additional starfire would be more than worth 1% crit. In most cases though, it is going to give you less than 1 additional cast...most of the time those 3yds take less than a second to close.

In either case, the difference is not great.

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Old 02/16/09, 6:17 PM   #544
Narninian
Glass Joe
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Beregon View Post
Compared to what I would consider the standard spec, your tradeoff for 2/2 vs 1/2 Nature's Reach is a 2/3 vs 3/3 in Improved Insect Swarm. So, for that extra 3yd range you're giving up ~1% crit on your Starfire (times Moonfire uptime percentage).

I have no way to give a hard number to the additional casts you get for having the range and it will vary from fight to fight. A single additional starfire would be more than worth 1% crit. In most cases though, it is going to give you less than 1 additional cast...most of the time those 3yds take less than a second to close.

In either case, the difference is not great.
Assuming 2/3 intensity (which most moonkins dont need in a raid setting)

Which of the following talents are you including in the 'standard' spec?
Typhoon, Gale Winds, Brambles, Owlkin Frenzy, genesis, dreamstate?

I guess gale winds could be argued for, as it allows for faster trash clearing, but improved insect swarm and nature's reach are clearly better for bosses.

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Old 02/16/09, 6:30 PM   #545
 Adoriele
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Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
Assuming 2/3 intensity (which most moonkins dont need in a raid setting)

Which of the following talents are you including in the 'standard' spec?
Typhoon, Gale Winds, Brambles, Owlkin Frenzy, genesis, dreamstate?

I guess gale winds could be argued for, as it allows for faster trash clearing, but improved insect swarm and nature's reach are clearly better for bosses.
Reach is a given. 6 yards is all the difference in the world for a lot of fights. More time on target after shifting for Lava Waves, easier to spread out on Kel/Sapph (before Blocks are up, plus time on target after shifting for Blizzard), Easier DPS on Scions. It's utility that you literally cannot get anywhere else, while you can always gear for more haste/hit/crit/spellpower. Similarly for Typhoon, though I can understand some people's aversion to it. Genesis is shit, DS is the retard check of Wrath. Gale Winds, if you're on Sarth+, is a big help, OF and Brambles are more flavor. If you've got the points, go for them.

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Old 02/16/09, 6:48 PM   #546
Narninian
Glass Joe
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Mal'Ganis
My question was more directed torwards beregon, he felt that the talent points came down to choosing between nature's reach and Improved insect swarm - but I feel that any PVE raiding spec would have room to include both.

I feel the 'optional' talents are intensity (which admittedly isn't really optional if its needed) Brambles (for single target DPS), Owlkin Frenzy (more for outside of raids), Typhoon and Gale winds (for AOE). Nature's Focus and Improved Insect swarm I don't feel are optional at all.

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Old 02/16/09, 7:04 PM   #547
Ashaera
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Whenever I respec I allways place points like this & then decide what I need for whatever im speccing for.

Usually I end up with Typhoon + 1/2 Nature's Reach. Ill repeat again that its very dependant on the people you play with, for some people my basespec is not possible due to manaissues & others may play with tanks that makes Nature's Reach threat reduction matter.

With 1/2 aggro is never an issue -- I tried 0/2 which lead to me using some Hands of Salvation, but mostly for Immortal safety & not so much due to risk of breaking 130% tank threat. In the fights where the breakpoint is 100% then 0/2 is borderline, allthough in most cases tanks are miles ahead.

That being said I would spec 0/2 Nature's Reach if there was a proper alternative for singletarget dps. I cant think of 1 fight where I feel a noteable difference between 30, 33 or 36yards.

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Old 02/17/09, 3:11 AM   #548
Knoway
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by Ashaera View Post
Whenever I respec I allways place points like this & then decide what I need for whatever im speccing for.

Usually I end up with Typhoon + 1/2 Nature's Reach. Ill repeat again that its very dependant on the people you play with, for some people my basespec is not possible due to manaissues & others may play with tanks that makes Nature's Reach threat reduction matter.

With 1/2 aggro is never an issue -- I tried 0/2 which lead to me using some Hands of Salvation, but mostly for Immortal safety & not so much due to risk of breaking 130% tank threat. In the fights where the breakpoint is 100% then 0/2 is borderline, allthough in most cases tanks are miles ahead.

That being said I would spec 0/2 Nature's Reach if there was a proper alternative for singletarget dps. I cant think of 1 fight where I feel a noteable difference between 30, 33 or 36yards.
Spreading out for KT
Backing out of blizzard on Sapph
Avoiding lava waves for Sarth
Heigan P1
More time standing still on Grobbulus
P2 Malygos

These are the times off the top of my head when 6 yards of extra range can and will come into play.

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Old 02/17/09, 5:02 AM   #549
ninor
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It's perfectly possible to deal with all of your examples without having those extra 6 yards. It all boils down to how you and your raidgroup plays, as Ashaera pointed out in his post. Saying range "can and will" come into play in these examples seems unnecessarily absolutist, since it's mostly about positioning. Heigan was apparently changed in 3.0.8, and his Spell Disruption is now 30 yards. That's the only place 0/2 NR might be a problem.


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Old 02/17/09, 5:34 AM   #550
Vitanebuna
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Bladefist (EU)
Dont know how your tanks are but i like a lot the aggro reduction on fights like malygos especially or when the 1st drake lands on sarth ( did have to stop on other bosses too ). To be honest i d like an aggro dump move for moonkins but this might just be our raids case.

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Old 02/17/09, 8:34 AM   #551
Eilt
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Humbaba View Post
I assume you mean Tenebron?

Tangentially, why would you do this? Sarth is a joke when the drakes are dead. Why risk a wipe to shave 30s off a fight? And why burn cooldowns so early?
Yes, sorry bad with names. How does this risk a wipe? We have no issues with Sarth 3d and are just competing with ourselves to get a better time every week. We don't blow CDs since we blow them all on Tenebron when he lands, but we still go all out and at worse I use shadowmeld early in the fight or just stop DPSing. For us, the encounter is not fun if you are not pushing yourself, so every week we have the goal to beat last weeks time. Keeping everyone sharp and dedicated instead of just blowing though it hastily.

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Old 02/17/09, 10:39 AM   #552
profet
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Runetotem
It seems that the current version of Rawr 2.19 values crit higher than haste.

Is this a bug?

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Old 02/17/09, 10:41 AM   #553
Ashaera
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Auchindoun (EU)
His comment is based upon what you originally wrote: I.e. blowing CD's for a massive initial burst on Sartharion before first dragon add lands. Which would indeed be a weird approach, but seems like you found common ground now.

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Old 02/17/09, 10:50 AM   #554
 Hamlet
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
It depends on the context of your Sarth3 as well. If you're learning the fight, or still trying to get stabilized farming nailed down, you shouldn't DPS before Tenebron. You want your tank to have full attention for positioning and not have to push threat, you want everyone to position ideally to pounce on Tenebron, and you want all DPS timers/ICD effects (trinkets/Eclipse) to be up.

Once your farming the fight and aren't going to wipe anyway, then yes, DPSing before Tenebron obviously kills faster than not DPSing before Tenebron. But most people aren't in this situation, and it's a significant point to stress here since our DPS during the meaningful part of the fight is significantly worse when Eclipse is on ICD as Tenebron lands.

Originally Posted by profet View Post
It seems that the current version of Rawr 2.19 values crit higher than haste.

Is this a bug?
The current Rawr module is pretty sketchy; I think a complete overhaul is underway. Gear for haste.


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Old 02/17/09, 10:51 AM   #555
myconoid
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Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by profet View Post
It seems that the current version of Rawr 2.19 values crit higher than haste.

Is this a bug?
If I understand correctly, it weights stats based on what you have now. If it determines that more crit is more valuable to you right now, it weighs it higher.

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