Moonkin Raiding - Page 38

Eilt · 02/17/09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

But most people aren't in this situation, and it's a significant point to stress here since our DPS during the meaningful part of the fight is significantly worse when Eclipse is on ICD as Tenebron lands.

On this note I have found that the iCD coincides amazingly well as Tenebron lands and we cast heroism right after the first lava wall.

Hunter MDs tank; sarth begins running into position, I am positioned half way between Sarth and Tenebrons landing spot. (maybe less than half, closer to Sarth) On the run in I applied IS/MF and start my wrath casts right away getting a quick eclipse proc and going a full duration eclipse. A little bit after eclipse fades, Tenebron is starting to come down, I have time to refresh MF/IS on Sarth as I run closer to Tenebron and apply IS/MF to him as well. Around this time the iCD is getting close to coming up and we are getting ready to use heroism, so I throw out treants so they get the benefit of hero for them and can pretty much start the rotation over again.

Of course this is a very variable, but of all the kills we have done there were only one or two times where I did not get a quick eclipse on Sarth and was actually forced to waste some heroism time casting wrath for the proc.

profet · 02/17/09, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by myconoid

If I understand correctly, it weights stats based on what you have now. If it determines that more crit is more valuable to you right now, it weighs it higher.

I understand that. Here are some examples of things it would change from my current armory gear.

I own all of the below items and Rawr "Optimizes" to make my gear set look like:

Wear
[Swarm Bindings]
instead of
[Esteemed Bindings]

Wear
[Valorous Dreamwalker Trousers] and [Gown of the Spell-Weaver]
instead of
[Heroes' Dreamwalker Vestments] and [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]

This can't be right... can it?

thedopefishlives · 02/17/09, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by profet

I understand that. Here are some examples of things it would change from my current armory gear.

I own all of the below items and Rawr "Optimizes" to make my gear set look like:

Wear
[Swarm Bindings]
instead of
[Esteemed Bindings]

Wear
[Valorous Dreamwalker Trousers] and [Gown of the Spell-Weaver]
instead of
[Heroes' Dreamwalker Vestments] and [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]

This can't be right... can it?

It may not be. My suggestion, as I have repeated multiple times in this thread, is to wait for the next release of Rawr and try again. The next release will use the math behind WrathCalcs to do its calculations, and should be much more predictable.

Eilt · 02/17/09, 11:07 AM

This is what I understand of thew situation:
Crit is a better stat than haste, the problem is that it takes way more crit rating to get 1% crit than it does 1% haste.

Thus haste wins out the battle for us. I also have both of the above mentioned bracers, but I simply weight spellpower so much higher than either crit or haste, that a 19 SP gem makes the Esteemed an easy choice.

• Hamlet · 02/17/09, 11:28 AM

Esteemed are better.

1% haste (multiplicative) is better than 1% crit. 1% haste (additive) is roughly equal to 1% crit at typical gear levels. 1 haste rating is significantly better than 1 crit rating, and slightly worse than 1 spellpower.

Toonces · 02/17/09, 1:48 PM

First of all, thanks for all the advice in this forum. It's definately given me confidence in my spell rotation and I even installed and use the squak and awe mod to track the cooldown timer on eclipse. My question is, what's the optimal spell rotation to use during heroism? I've noticed that i'm topping the dps chart, or close to it, on a fight before heroism and then watch as I get blown away on the chart. I heard from other boomies that you should never use wrath during heroism so I end up dotting moonfire and spamming starfire until heroism ends. Should I not deviate from the wrath until proc eclipse rotation even through heroism? Thx

Erdluf · 02/17/09, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Toonces

First of all, thanks for all the advice in this forum. It's definately given me confidence in my spell rotation and I even installed and use the squak and awe mod to track the cooldown timer on eclipse. My question is, what's the optimal spell rotation to use during heroism? I've noticed that i'm topping the dps chart, or close to it, on a fight before heroism and then watch as I get blown away on the chart. I heard from other boomies that you should never use wrath during heroism so I end up dotting moonfire and spamming starfire until heroism ends. Should I not deviate from the wrath until proc eclipse rotation even through heroism? Thx

For a Patchwork style fight:

If you are good at switching to SF when Eclipse procs, you have 3/3 Eclipse, and your Wrath crit rate in raids is at least 40%, you should try to proc Eclipse if the cooldown comes up early (first 10s) in BL/Hero.

- Wrath during heroism should (on average) have at least 60% of the DPS of non-eclipse SF during Heroism.
- SF during heroism should gain at least 25% DPS during Eclipse.
- Wrath should not take more than 6s to proc Eclipse (counting extra, wasted cast).
- You should be able to take advantage of at least 12s of Eclipse.

6s * -.4 = -2.4s SF damage lost trying to proc eclipse.
12s * +0.25 = +3s SF damage gained from eclipse.

I think these numbers are a litte bit on the pessimistic side, but certainly if you tend to be slow noticing Eclipse, you'll be better off just spamming SF.

Note that the gain with my numbers was only 0.6s of your Heroism SF-spam DPS.

Crucial288 · 02/18/09, 4:38 PM

Considering the MF after the eclipse is off (while its on cooldown), Ive seen some say that it would be better to cast it right after the last Eclipsed SF (before or after IS) and some say to wait with it and only apply it at the end of the cooldown so your eclipsed SF can get the benefit too.

So, has anyone got any maths or reasons why one method would be superior than the other?

-Cru

Eilt · 02/19/09, 9:00 AM

If you are not in an eclipse period and MF falls off you want to refresh it. Maximum uptime on MF plays a huge factor in our DPS over a fight.

Nioreh · 02/23/09, 6:34 PM

I belive that the 2 methods are the same - you either skip uptime during the eclipse cooldown or during the actual eclipse, someone might wanna do the math tho. You will refresh it three times either way, unless you get very unlucky with eclipse, and in that case it might be better to not wait. Waiting seems supid, really. Granted that you starfire during hidden CD of course, which you should be doing.

Oh and Rawr is bugging me aswell, but I guess Ill just wait for the next version instead of crying my heart out.

Nailer · 02/23/09, 8:13 PM

Given the guide lines Adoriele set out in his Wrath Calcs thread I decided it was better to post the question here: After digging through these 20+ pages almost everybody seems to advocate a starfire heavy rotation yet no matter what stats I plug into the spreadsheet wrath always comes out on top for me. I understand it scales poorly with spellpower and I could not get my hands on the Razuvious idol yet, but even at unrealistically high numbers of 3000+ sp (plus converting trinket procs to sp at a rate of 1 proc every 70 seconds) and switching to shooting star - although starfire gains in relative value - wrath stays on top. I decided to try this in practice and went to town with a target dummy from fully repaired till my gear broke (no joke) and it reinforced the results. The 5 "rotations" I did were:

- pure wrath spam
- pure sf spam
- MF, IS, wrath till eclipse, starifre through eclipse, in eclipse CD refresh DOTs, 3x starfire, wrath, repeat
- same as above but without the 3x starfires in eclipse CD (my main rotation, prolonged moonfires in elcipse CD tend to mess up things for me)
- same as above but starfire instead of wrath all the way through eclipse CD

Deliberately not going into more details about my rules on when and how to refresh DOTs exactly as they are still open to debate, let's just say I avoided the obviously dumb ones. Note that I have a decent server connection, running with IS, MF and SF glyphs, and have a few resto pieces as that is my main spec. Since - unless I am unlucky with crits - I usually manage to hit the 5000 mark at PW < 3 min, and the spreadsheet says so and target dummy testing says so, while not necessarily ideal this wrath based rotation can not be fundamentally wrong. So why then starfire you say? Am I just a freak of RNG, did I miss something or do the resto pieces make such a difference?

My unbuffed caster form stats in case someone has the patience to put them into Wrath Cals:

bonus damage: 2028
crit chance: 18,62%
hit rating: 222 (using snapper extreme)
haste rating: 567
spirit: 402
intellect: 816
T7 4-piece
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
Idol of Steadfast Renewal

And a fairly standard talent build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Erdluf · 02/23/09, 11:45 PM

Assuming zero latency, haste or crit:

With Idol of Steadfast Renewal, Wrath's base DPS is about 10% higher than SF's. Wrath DPS scales with SP about 10% faster than SF (67%/1.5s vs 120%/3s).

Almost every mechanism would favor Wrath as a filler. The exceptions are

- Mana: at some gear levels
- SF Glyph considerations
- Latency
- Haste/NG/GCD interactions
- SF Idol

Mana is mostly considered to be a non-issue. Some people are going with one MF per Eclipse cycle. For them, the SF Glyph should not be an issue. Others can add three SF per MF cast.

The last three bullets tend to dominate decisions. WrathCalcs ships with an assumed 0.2s latency, which is doubled for a NG'd Wrath. That means that every Wrath cast takes well over 50% as long as an SF cast.

If your effective latency is quite low, you don't have an SF idol, and your haste isn't too high, Wrath will be a better filler.

Nailer · 02/24/09, 1:56 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Wrath DPS scales with SP about 10% faster than SF (67%/1.5s vs 120%/3s).

Obviously this is where I was mistaken, thank you for the succinct description. Probably these considerations would be helpful to be mentioned at least briefly in the Dummies thread as it states quite unambiguously that starfire should be used in eclipse CD no matter what.

Lilija · 02/25/09, 3:07 AM

Recently I was wondering if in 3.1 it would be worth to change [Glyph of Insect Swarm] for the new Starfall glyph.

Originally Posted by www.mmo-champion.com

Glyph of Starfall -- Reduces the cooldown of Starfall by 90 sec.

So I decided to make a little calculation with my lastest WWS as how my dps would change if I had those glyphs switched. The outcome was of around 0.32% dps increase for a 2.40min fight in case of using glyph of Starfall.

However, when I looked at my earlier WWS which was a 2.53min fight Starfall glyph would mean 0.36% dps loss. Although, if only the fight was longer enough to fit one more Starfall, the glyph change would grant around 0.71% dps increase.

Now, I am trying to figure out will it actually be worth to do a switch like this. It seems that the case of if it's a dps increase or loss is situational plus the difference is rather small. However, this would mean also that IS gains the -%hit utility which depending on new content might actually become usefull.

Anyway, for now I am unable to answer the question, which of the glyphs is better but I would really like to see what other people think about it.

dukes · 02/25/09, 4:40 AM

If you're looking at the DPS implications of swapping the IS glyph for the Starfall one you need to look further:

- If you aren't using the IS glyph, is it worth casting any more? (evaluate for both with IIS and without, and for hard bosses that may need the -3% hit)
- If you aren't casting IS any more, then it isn't worth the talent point - what benefit does this one point give?
- Are there AoE burst fights where you gain significant benefit from being able to use Starfall twice as often?

It seems that the gains/losses are very situational and it may even be that with dual spec we can have two builds if required:
- AoE centric with Gale Winds / Typhoon / Starfall with supporting glyphs (and possibly extra mana regen if required); and
- Single Target without the AoE talents with standard glyphs for more dps-intensive fights.