Moonkin Raiding - Page 39

Qalor · 02/25/09, 7:49 AM

If you didn't take IS, you can't take improved IS, which gives 3% starfire crit.
I wouldn't think you could make that up with any other talent purchase.

Raqtor · 02/25/09, 7:50 PM

On the Crit vs. Haste issue: Things to consider.

Crit allows you to do higher dps for the same mana while haste burns mana hard.
Critical strikes in moonkin form can regenerate 2% of your total mana.
(Yes running OOM is not a big issue but if you could always give that innervate to someone who needs it or just never have to waste a GCD on it. Or perhaps use gear which focuses more on damage and less on mana regeneration)

Talents have a say too:
If you have the Eclipse talent you want really high critical chance to proc Eclipse sooner. Eclipse procs are a great DPS boost and you want as many as possible.
If you have Nature's Grace talent every crit boosts your next cast time.

You might even have a trinket that procs on critical strikes etc.

My experience makes me feel that you need a good critical strike chance, but once you have that haste is what you should work on.

Daylis · 02/25/09, 8:18 PM

Aright, so i went and downloaded 2.2 beta rawr, imput exact same data in 2.1 as well and compared Relative stat values.

Very suprisingly, it is not as different as i've thought it would be. If you check my armory, you'll see i'm still relatively high on crit and low on spelldamage. To be exact, 2089sp, 494 crit rating, 540 haste unbuffed.

2.1 rawr says 2.2 beta rawr
sp 2,48 2,44
crit 1,96 1,85
haste 1,26 1,43

Considering the general consesus is that haste rating>crit rating mainly because of conversion rate, the value rawr puts out still drastically differs. While haste value is higher on 2.2, it's still far behind crit.

Thoughts?

thedopefishlives · 02/26/09, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Daylis

Aright, so i went and downloaded 2.2 beta rawr, imput exact same data in 2.1 as well and compared Relative stat values.

Very suprisingly, it is not as different as i've thought it would be. If you check my armory, you'll see i'm still relatively high on crit and low on spelldamage. To be exact, 2089sp, 494 crit rating, 540 haste unbuffed.

2.1 rawr says 2.2 beta rawr
sp 2,48 2,44
crit 1,96 1,85
haste 1,26 1,43

Considering the general consesus is that haste rating>crit rating mainly because of conversion rate, the value rawr puts out still drastically differs. While haste value is higher on 2.2, it's still far behind crit.

Thoughts?

What options are you putting into Rawr in the first place? I loaded your character profile, input a standard set of 25-man raid buffs, and I get:
SP 2.11
Haste 1.44
Crit 1.18

The only way I get results similar to what you're getting is when I check the Bloodlust box, which is currently treated in Rawr.Moonkin as a flat 30% haste just so you can see how Bloodlust changes the rotation. I don't average it out over the fight. Obviously this greatly devalues the value of haste when you have that box checked.

Eilt · 02/26/09, 9:42 AM

We are looking at Typhoon.

I believe we fixed the Starfall coefficient already.

We will probably just leave the Owlkin Frenzy talent as is on live rather than risk the PvP nerf. If druids want to stand in the fire with the paladins in PvE, we'll live. Take it up with your healers.

We are also looking at (sigh) Eclipse yet again to make sure the Wrath part of the equation holds up.

We discussed looking at Insect Swarm. It's been a long day, and I can't recall what we decided.

Blue Post by GC: I wanted to post this in a moonkin thread in case it gets lost in the 3.1 changes thread. Not sure if any of this will be seen in 3.1 but I sure hope so.

Post:
http://elitistjerks.com/1122686-post255.html

dukes · 02/26/09, 10:05 AM

I could be wrong, but I think what he's saying about Wrath eclipse is the damage buff, not the %proc chance from Wrath (i.e. making solar eclipse more desirable).

Cdin · 02/26/09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Raqtor

Talents have a say too:
If you have the Eclipse talent you want really high critical chance to proc Eclipse sooner. Eclipse procs are a great DPS boost and you want as many as possible.

Don't forget that that Haste will cause you to proc Eclipse sooner also.

My experience makes me feel that you need a good critical strike chance, but once you have that haste is what you should work on.

I see this comment around the web a lot and I think it is one of the most misleading pieces of advice that is given.

Of course it is best to have a balance of Crit and Haste, but it isn't something that any of us need to work for. We can get 12% crit just from talents. Another 10%-13% is easy from raid buffs. When you start to add the set bonus and crit from Int you get another 9% - 10%, and we havent included one point of Crit rating yet. As long as you don't actively ignore crit a "good critical strike chance" is easy to acheave and doesnt' require any special effort.

Eilt · 02/26/09, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

I could be wrong, but I think what he's saying about Wrath eclipse is the damage buff, not the %proc chance from Wrath (i.e. making solar eclipse more desirable).

While I can not discount that may be true, I think that with all the issues of Wrath clipping the GCD (even without Heroism) they would need some serious work to make a solar eclipse desirable, but I guess we will have to wait and see. Hopefully they will allow the GCD to go under 1s with NG active, but that may be wishful thinking....

Daylis · 02/26/09, 1:00 PM

The only way I get results similar to what you're getting is when I check the Bloodlust box, which is currently treated in Rawr.Moonkin as a flat 30% haste just so you can see how Bloodlust changes the rotation. I don't average it out over the fight. Obviously this greatly devalues the value of haste when you have that box checked.

Aah, that explains it. While i'm still getting different values, the ratio seems to hold up, so it is probably only particiular differences between raid setups and availability of buffs.

It is good to know about bloodlust, thanks.

Jishosan · 02/26/09, 6:51 PM

I have read this thread and Boomkin for dummies. I'm still trying to determine some information about DOT refreshing.

Up until now, I have been doing the following rotation:

1. IFF -> MF -> IS
2. Wrath until Eclipse. IF MF and IS are down and Eclipse does not proc, refresh them both and continue wrathing.
3. On eclipse, I refresh MF if it has less than 3s left on it, then spam Starfire until Internal Cooldown on SF is up.
4. Refresh IFF -> MF -> IS and continue cycle.

My crit still runs a little low on my Boomkin, as he just dinged 80. My haste is also low. So, my Wrath is a 1.4s cast and my Starfire is 2.8s. WIth all buffs and debuffs, I think I run about 30% crit rating. With Eclipse, I should get eclipse after 9s of wrath (6.67 casts). Due to MF and IS GCD, this means I'm usually having to refresh MF at almost every Eclipse proc due to the extra wrath cast after eclipse proc.

I have seen some different advice:

1) Don't refresh your DoTs at all during the cycle, and simply refresh them after the Eclipse iCD.
2) Dont refresh your DoTs during Eclipse proc, but refresh one or both during the iCD while spamming SF.
3) Throw DoTs, Wrath until eclipse, Starfire til iCD, refresh DoTs, then SF Spam until wrath eclipse proc, and spam Wrath (basically alternating Eclipse procs)
4) Refresh MF whenever it's down but only IS between Eclipse cycles.

Are any of these items affected by your stats? For instance, I have low haste, so does that mean maybe 2 would be better for me, since MF + IS over 3s might be more DPS than SF over 2.8 while on iCD?

Lord BEEF · 02/26/09, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

If you're looking at the DPS implications of swapping the IS glyph for the Starfall one you need to look further:

- If you aren't using the IS glyph, is it worth casting any more? (evaluate for both with IIS and without, and for hard bosses that may need the -3% hit)
- If you aren't casting IS any more, then it isn't worth the talent point - what benefit does this one point give?
- Are there AoE burst fights where you gain significant benefit from being able to use Starfall twice as often?

I'd imagine that unglyphed, insect swarm wouldn't be worth casting unless you want the hit debuff, or are moving. The damage while moving would make it still worth getting the talent point I think.

I'd certainly LIKE to be able to unglyph insect swarm and provide the hit debuff. Hunters aren't likely going to be using scorpid sting any time soon and there's a good chance that there will be really hard hitting bosses in Ulduar.

It of course also depends on what coefficient starfall ends up with. They say they've increased it, but I don't think that's live in the current PTR build. I'd definitely like to cast it more often and have it be a damage upgrade, mainly because it looks so cool

Ashaera · 02/26/09, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jishosan

3. On eclipse, I refresh MF if it has less than 3s left on it, then spam Starfire until Internal Cooldown on SF is up.

Ok lets talk logic for a second. Let me start by saying that im very much against casting anything apart from SF during Eclipse proc, but ignore that for now.

Now if you believe that its worthwhile to refresh MF during eclipse:
In both cases lets assume that MF has less than 3 seconds left & Eclipse procs.
a) (What you wanna do) - Instead of letting MF tick you refresh it.
b) (What makes sense) - Let MF tick out, refresh it.

Do we agree that you are gonna cast an equal amount of Starfires in both scenario a & b? If so, then give me one good argument for a if you can, I dont understand your reasoning.

------
What rotation works best with your current gear is something Id play around with Wrathcalc to estimate --- If you intend to gear up your moonkin I would just get used to a raiding geared moonkin cycle while gearing up.

Basically that means:
a) FF refresh just as or just before it drops (Only if you are assigned to this task naturally).
Phase 1 (Proccing eclipse) - If any dot falls refresh it, then spam W till eclipse procs.
Phase 2 (During eclipse) - Spam SF.
Phase 3 (Hidden cd) - Starts & ends with an IS cast / reapply MF when it drops / else spam SF.

Try being clever with using dot reapplication to ease phase transitions - Dont clip dots.

alpiino · 02/26/09, 8:29 PM

When it comes to refreshing dots during eclipse or not the deciding factor is: How many potential ticks of MF or IF would I gain by possibly downgrading 1 eclipsed starfire to normal starfire.
Many players seem to overvalue eclipsed starfire compared to normal starfire.
For example eclipsed starfire has 80% crit and therefore average dmg it does is 1.8*6000=10800dmg while
non eclipsed starfire average damage is 1.5*6000=9000dmg. The difference between average eclipsed/noneclipsed starfire is only 1800dmg. (Numbers are rough averages for t7.5 moonkin)

It comes down to this: Refresh dot and POSSIBLY downgrade 1 eclipsed starfire into normal starfire or dont refresh and lose X amount of dot ticks but gain 30% crit for 1 starfire.

We can safely say that if you get atleast 2 ticks of moonfire by refreshing it during eclipse you win.
Insect swarm propably needs 3 ticks to justify refreshing it during eclipse.

To sum it up: Refresh MF and IS during eclipse if they fall off and theres more than 6 seconds of eclipse left.
Im extremely happy if someone proves me wrong.

• Hamlet · 02/26/09, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by alpiino

When it comes to refreshing dots during eclipse or not the deciding factor is: How many potential ticks of MF or IF would I gain by possibly downgrading 1 eclipsed starfire to normal starfire.

Almost. The fact that you're refreshing a DoT earlier rather also carries a small opportunity cost which can be best described as a "virtual fraction of a GCD." It's kind of like interest--the value of a GCD in the present (for the purpose of refreshing DoT's) is slightly higher than that of a GCD in the future. I haven't worked out exactly how to model this.

alpiino · 02/27/09, 3:04 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Almost. The fact that you're refreshing a DoT earlier rather also carries a small opportunity cost which can be best described as a "virtual fraction of a GCD." It's kind of like interest--the value of a GCD in the present (for the purpose of refreshing DoT's) is slightly higher than that of a GCD in the future. I haven't worked out exactly how to model this.

Hmm, can you explain a bit more on this?
I agree if you mean that GCD is more valuable during eclipse than when theres no eclipse. But I think the cost in practise is as I described: Possibly downgrade one eclipsed SF to normal.

Also remember that when refreshing a dot during eclipse, you dont straightly lose dps time worth of a GCD because you would refresh that dot anyway, just a bit later!
Or if you refresh a dot during eclipse, it doesnt mean that you automatically cast 1 starfire less in the match, you just cast the starfire a bit later possibly making it uneclipsed which aint a big loss compared to those 2+ dot ticks that you gain.