Am I crazy or was there a datamined Starfire idol from Ulduar? All I'm seeing is [Idol of the Crying Wind] which is 374 sp to insect swarm.
I'm continuing to play around with Rawr and I'm adding in items from MMO-C when I see things that look like they might be better than what's equipped. So far the best gearset is putting me at 6867 dps over 5 minutes with a MF/SF rotation. Presumably this is MF->W to eclipse ->SF with SF filler? Glyphs are MF/SFire/SFall. I also unchecked 100% MF. What does that do? If it's checked it shows 6779 with SF spam. That would seem counter intuitive since 100% MF uptime would be impossible with straight SF spam. I'm using the standard 57/0/14 spec.
Is Rawr recommending you not use IS at all? That seems rather odd. Have you tried WC?
"100% MF" is probably a 2-MF rotation, instead of a 1-MF rotation.
Am I crazy or was there a datamined Starfire idol from Ulduar? All I'm seeing is [Idol of the Crying Wind] which is 374 sp to insect swarm.
I'm continuing to play around with Rawr and I'm adding in items from MMO-C when I see things that look like they might be better than what's equipped. So far the best gearset is putting me at 6867 dps over 5 minutes with a MF/SF rotation. Presumably this is MF->W to eclipse ->SF with SF filler? Glyphs are MF/SFire/SFall. I also unchecked 100% MF. What does that do? If it's checked it shows 6779 with SF spam. That would seem counter intuitive since 100% MF uptime would be impossible with straight SF spam. I'm using the standard 57/0/14 spec.
About Rawr: All calculations in Rawr are taken from Adoriele's WrathCalcs. The 100% MF uptime option means that you cast MF twice per Eclipse rotation, which ensures the dot is always ticking but causes dot clips. Unchecking the option means the dot ticks its full duration, but will fall off. MF/SF with a Lunar eclipse and 100% MF uptime is W to Eclipse -> SF during Eclipse -> SF during cooldown, refreshing MF twice during the rotation. If you checked the 100% MF uptime and it's showing your optimal rotation as SF spam, then it means MF is not even worth casting, which tells me either your spec is messed up or you haven't set up the buffs correctly.
Edit to the above poster: Depending on the situation, Rawr may or may not see IS as worth casting. In particular, it almost sounds as if he has Bloodlust checked, which does NOT compute the average value of the Bloodlust over the fight but actually shows you what you should be doing while under Bloodlust.
I had zero problems with pushback on XT. Your tanks pick up whatever can interrupt you, you ae the scrapbots, right? And kolo adds, since when do they interrupt you? They should be standing 30ish yards away from you in a nice cluster.
Ah, sorry I wasn't more clear. I keep it to avoid pushback from XT's Tantrum and Kolo's Shockwave while finishing up the last adds. Marginal benefit since they're usually dead or close to dead on Tantrum and Shockwave has a long CD, but it was enough (dps aside) to cement the decision.
I let it optimize everything this time, talents included. It's showing MF/SF breaking 7k with no IS.
I've attached my XML file if you want to take a look at the buffs to make sure I'm not doing something incorrectly. I'm not checking the box for focus magic since I never get it.
100% MF is indeed a misnomer, in that yes, it does mean a 2-MF cycle. This only guarantees 100% MF uptime if you have the SF glyph and proc Eclipse in less than 9 seconds, which on average you should.
As for how it's modeled, I'd have to go back and check. It's nowhere near as stringent as it probably could be, but it gets close. The problem with trying to force it to be more stringent is that I would have to assume things about the rotation (i.e. what order the DoTs are cast in), and be unable to support variations. It's nice to have everyone agree in this thread that you should go MF-IS-IS-MF, but that doesn't mean that everyone who uses the sheet will know to do that. The differences between variations of 2-MF cycles are a lot smaller than the variations between a 1-MF and a 2-MF, so I'm much more comfortable with modeling the general case, and allowing for personal discrepancies. There's more than enough shortcuts being taken in the entire model to warrant just putting a "This is for the general case" stamp on it.
[edit] It's also possible that without the IS glyph, it can be entirely dropped from the rotation, especially if 2T7 is also dropped. With 4T8 being so lackluster, I'm not at all surprised that it's not enough to force IS either.
Little experience with 25-man so far, we spent 3 hours on Razorscale without a kill. I had no real issues, but we never got past a second ground phase, so it's not really a good judge. 10-man, though, I was running dry on XT every attempt, once we started getting things down. Kill, I needed 2 innervates and a pot, and was still OOM at the end (though just barely). Not real news, since 10-mans are always on the low end of mana, but it surprised me just how bad it was. I'll see how it goes tonight, but I'm already anticipating putting a couple extra points in mana talents, though that might just be Moonglow since the opportunity cost is very low.
I did both 10 and 25man Razorscale, killing them at both times. I found it a quite simple strategy, mana was really no issue at all -- assuming we had at least one replenish class available. My Innervate was sent to a priest more as a safeguard than a need. No mana regen talents, pots or whatsoever.
Back on track, I am not seeing any T8 stats or bonus valuable at all. Unless complementary items (bracers, belt, boots, rings, trinkets, weapons) and extras (enchants/gems) are way too gorgeous, guess I will be raiding with my T7 for a long time. IS Idol damage is cute, got about 250dps/tick while using it, but still do not yet make it better than SF one.
[edit] It's also possible that without the IS glyph, it can be entirely dropped from the rotation, especially if 2T7 is also dropped. With 4T8 being so lackluster, I'm not at all surprised that it's not enough to force IS either.
You know, I just realized that this probably explains everything. With no glyph and no 2T7 bonus, IS completely unboosted is probably not powerful enough to be cast. With a 2-MF rotation and no IS, it's likely that the dots are being clipped too close, which makes MF just plain not worth casting.
Edit to the above poster: The IS idol is just not worth it. It is strictly inferior in all practical cases to the Starfire idol (see previously in this thread for the math). Also, the 2T8 set bonus is extremely powerful and worth picking up - shoulders and legs appear to be the two best pieces so far. The 4T8 set bonus is calculated in Rawr as being ~80 DPS, which is probably a very generous assessment, and so far all permutations I've run have not picked up the 4-set bonus.
Did I miss a discussion of the clipping issues that I mentioned in the Glyphs thread?
Are you clipping 1 tick each of the first IS and MF as you do this? (and if so, is Nature's Splendor still worth it?)
Hahahah, poor words on my part. Perhaps "It would be nice to have...". I honestly haven't looked too carefully at how often I clip. IS gets clipped more than MF, though, but a wrath in between gives a nice buffer if the final ticks don't line up nicely. If it crits, you've already cast MF, your next spell can't be queued, so it gives a great amount of time to notice that Eclipse has or hasn't procced, and if it has you get a nice full-duration MF to go along with it.
[edit]
Originally Posted by hquest
I did both 10 and 25man Razorscale, killing them at both times. I found it a quite simple strategy, mana was really no issue at all -- assuming we had at least one replenish class available. My Innervate was sent to a priest more as a safeguard than a need. No mana regen talents, pots or whatsoever.
I had almost exactly the opposite experience. Any time we made a decent attempt on Razor25 (killed after an hour or so), I needed at least my own, if not also another druid's innervate, and a pot. We didn't get far enough on XT for it to matter, but I could tell that I would need the same. I know I had Wis up, and I think we had enough replen, though I should double-check. Not sure about JoW either. It was enough, though, that last night I respecced for more mana. Which made today's announcement especially irritating.
Head - Collar of the Wyrmhunter (Runed Dragonseye)
Neck - Pendant of Fiery Havoc
Shoulder - Shoulder of Dormant Energies (Runed Dragonseye)
Back - Drape of Mortal Downfall (Veiled)
Chest - Set (Veiled)
Wrist - Unsullied Cuffs
Gloves - Handwraps of the Vigilant
Waist - Sash of Ancient Power (Runed Dragonseye)
Legs - Set
Boots - Boots of Fiery Resolution (Veiled) (Tuskarr's)
Finger - Manifested Pain, Pyrelight Circle
Trinket - IDS, Flare of the Heavens
Idol - Idol of the Shooting Star
Weapon - Staff of Endless Winter
Runed Scarlet Ruby except where noted.
These glyphs:
Moonfire Starfall Insect Swarm
Starfire
This rotation: MF/SF IS/MF/SF (Lunar Eclipse)
And 7015 6055 dps.**
Unless the 4T8 bonus changes, I think we're looking at 1 MF, 0 IS for the rotation.
Obviously the gear will change as more hard mode stuff becomes known.
*That spec isn't going to work for me in practice, but it's worth noting here since it pushes you over 7k. A standard 58/0/13 costs 80 dps but gains pushback protection for wrath, threat reduction / extra range, better AoE via Gale Winds and extra mana from Omen of Clarity.
**Reran the numbers without bloodlust selected, per discussion later in the thread.
*That spec isn't going to work for me in practice, but it's worth noting here since it pushes you over 7k. A standard 58/0/13 costs 80 dps but gains pushback protection for wrath, threat reduction / extra range, better AoE via Gale Winds and extra mana from Omen of Clarity.
This is the real issue with the optimizer. It doesn't have any way to account for utility talents such as Reach, Typhoon, and GW. Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE. I'd like to see the optimizer allow mandatory talent settings, then optimize the remaining points. Care would need to be taken to ensure possible builds (so you can't mark both Starfall and NS as mandatory, etc.), but it would allow you to set up more realistic builds.
That, or allow the optimizer to only select between certain pre-generated specs, rather than optimizing by points.
This is the real issue with the optimizer. It doesn't have any way to account for utility talents such as Reach, Typhoon, and GW. Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE. I'd like to see the optimizer allow mandatory talent settings, then optimize the remaining points. Care would need to be taken to ensure possible builds (so you can't mark both Starfall and NS as mandatory, etc.), but it would allow you to set up more realistic builds.
That, or allow the optimizer to only select between certain pre-generated specs, rather than optimizing by points.
You can already compare specs. You have to build and save them yourself, but there's a "Talent Spec" comparison chart that shows which one does more DPS.
You can already compare specs. You have to build and save them yourself, but there's a "Talent Spec" comparison chart that shows which one does more DPS.
Yes, but it's not available to the optimizer. Thus I can't compare a spec without BoP but with a metric fuckton of hit on my gear to a normal spec, nor can I optimize that without potentially losing Typhoon or Reach in the process.
Also, the 2T8 set bonus is extremely powerful and worth picking up - shoulders and legs appear to be the two best pieces so far.
I guess determining which two set pieces to pick depends on whether you have any items lying around that can balance your hit at 264. What is really annoying is that there none of them stand out as being significant gear upgrades.
As for the usefulness of 2pT8 bonus, isn't it a rather small DPS increase on Lunar Eclipse? When fully raidbuffed and with Scorch applied your Starfire crit chance during Eclipse is extremely high already, isn't it?
This bonus seems much stronger for Solar Eclipse. Could it possibly make it the stronger of the two (out of Bloodlust only, of course)?
e: that's with a lust in the fight somewhere. With lust out of the picture SF still wins but only by about 40 dps.
Um, you know that the Lust option on Rawr doesn't add a Lust to the fight, it assumes the entire fight is under Lust conditions, right? I.E. checking Lust gives you a flat 30% haste.
Not to mention that during lust you can just switch to lunar eclipse for that period of time while relying on solar eclipse for the unlusted period.
On a different note, while I've heard that the 4t8 is horribly weak given 5% proc rate and the possible 3 min cooldown, has anyone calculated the value of 4t8 if say it had the 5% proc rate but no ICD?
Hey guys, i've been following Elitist jerks for a while now, and though i may as well sign up and submit what i can.
I'd just like to point out, i've taken 2 points in dreamstate at the moment, and 1 in Omen of clarity. I have no mana issues in Uld at this point. We have downed 5 boss's on heroic so far, only on easy mode tho.
The only time ive ever Innervated myself is after stuffing up, and recieving a Battle rez.
Besides that, i have innervate macro'd to a mage that is usually present.
Now, because of no mana issues, i am thinking of taking one point out of dreamstate (or genesis) and spending back into starfall and force of nature.
I should mention, i am a litttle carefull for not dotting up trash that is going to be killed even close to when MF or IS will run out. I rather just wrath/SF spam, it is much more mana efficient with JOW on the target, and since they can crit.
5 moonkin aura 5 scorch 3 totem of wrath 3 IFF 3 imp IS about 30 crit in ulduar gear 45 crit from bonus, which sums up to about 94% crit chance on starfire. I don't remember the crit cap, but if i'm right it is somewhere along 70-80% which means we should either 1 we should avoid crit tottaly on gear 2 we should forget about 2set t8 3 we should start gearing for solar eclipses.
What crit cap are you talking about? What would it be other than 100%?
I'm somewhat intrigued by the possibilities of going for solar eclipses (when out of heroism/bloodlust). Currently my crit to haste ratio is somewhat overly skewed towards crit, 746 to 366. With Nature's Grace, my wraths are are almost exactly 1.0 second casts, so there's not really any clipping issue.
With any multiplier over a base amount of DPS, such as haste and crit, there are ever-diminishing returns on each additional percentage point of multiplication. With already high crit numbers, an extra 45% crit isn't nearly a 45% increase, but the 45% wrath bonus is multiplicative with everything else (as far as I know).
The question is, assuming you are NOT clipping the global cooldown, might wrath ever be the better spell to base your rotation around? It has always seemed to have a higher raw DPCT than starfire... My main concerns are the larger effects of latency and reaction time.
Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE.
At least for Hodir (Easy Mode) and the first 1-2 Shadow Crashs in the General Vezax fight, threat is an issue
Also at least in the Vezax fight it makes a huge difference to have the range to be in a Shadow Crash. It can be also of importance in fights like Freya when you move under the mushrooms, Hodir to be in the buff spots and so on.
In general threat can also be an issue, as we tend to use Herolust quite early after a pull, and if you just procced your first Lunar Eclipse when Herolust kicks in, you can build up quite some threat really fast.
Hey guys, i've been following Elitist jerks for a while now, and though i may as well sign up and submit what i can.
I'd just like to point out, i've taken 2 points in dreamstate at the moment, and 1 in Omen of clarity. I have no mana issues in Uld at this point. We have downed 5 boss's on heroic so far, only on easy mode tho.
The only time ive ever Innervated myself is after stuffing up, and recieving a Battle rez.
Besides that, i have innervate macro'd to a mage that is usually present.
Now, because of no mana issues, i am thinking of taking one point out of dreamstate (or genesis) and spending back into starfall and force of nature.
I should mention, i am a litttle carefull for not dotting up trash that is going to be killed even close to when MF or IS will run out. I rather just wrath/SF spam, it is much more mana efficient with JOW on the target, and since they can crit.
Regards,
Faarque.
As Intensity is quite a bit better than dreamstate, dropping both points from Dreamstate and getting just one in Intensity should yield good results in terms of mana regen, and free one talent point.
Innervate on a mage? Maybe i got it wrong, but isn't the mage BiS list ignoring spirit gear as much as possible?
Couple questions about stats after the patch. I remember seeing that there's a soft cap for haste at about 400 because that's where wraths will start clipping the gcd. Was that just for a solar eclipse rotation or should we shoot for around 400 haste for a lunar rotation now as well? I guess that leads into, lunar is still better correct?
Also, has anyone come up with relative values of sp, crit, and haste (assuming they have changed)? I got [Intensity] tonight just to see if I could juggle some hit and make it an upgrade. Looks like I can get down to 6 hit over cap, I gain 32 sp, 63 crit (1.55%), but lose 155 haste (4.72%). I'd love to use the shiny new staff but that just doesn't look worth it at all... Am I right that it's not worth it?
I got [Intensity] tonight just to see if I could juggle some hit and make it an upgrade. Looks like I can get down to 6 hit over cap, I gain 32 sp, 63 crit (1.55%), but lose 155 haste (4.72%). I'd love to use the shiny new staff but that just doesn't look worth it at all... Am I right that it's not worth it?
I also got Intensity tonight and started swapping around gear to see if I could make it worthwhile. I managed to swap out and gain over 1% crit, some 22 spell power, another 10-15 hit which was worthless to me, but my haste remained the same. Your question doesn't make sense as it's entirely dependent upon which items you are switching out to work in the extra hit from the staff. In my case, I think it was definitely worth it. According to Rawr, the switchout for me gave me 80dps.
I had a few questions about SFall though. I thought it might be best to utilize it during the ICD.
I’m still debating where to put SFall. Here’s my two options:
(1) MF, IS, SFall, SFx4, IS, MF
(2) MF, IS, SFx4, IS, MF, SFall
As SF crits more than W, I’m leaning towards option (2). Contrary to what some of you guys have stated, I feel that SFall WILL assist in proc’n eclipse faster (not in less casts, just faster cuz NG might be proc’d more often).
04/21/09, 11:24 AM
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