Rawr has, from the beginning, assumed a 5% proc rate and no internal cooldown. The valuation of the set bonus under these conditions is ~80 DPS in full BiS T8-25 gear, depending on the selected options. In particular, Rawr seems to be very optimistic on Solar Eclipse as gear level increases.
Well in particular i notice that the eclipse rotations have the same relationship as haste and crit. As crit goes up and haste goes down solar increases, and as haste goes up and crit goes down lunar increases. So after certain ratios of those one becomes better than the other.
Napkin, but assuming the 5% proc rate is correct you'd average one proc every 20 ticks, or 40s, assuming 100% uptime, which is unlikely. Call it 80% uptime, which is more likely, and you get 1 every 50s. It's worth half of a Starfire when it procs, and Starfire average including Crit rate is, say, 8.5k, 10k during Eclipse. That makes the bonus worth ~100 DPS if you manage to proc it during eclipse every time, 85 DPS on the low end. For comparison, 4T7 is worth ~150 DPS, 2T8 about 165.
So then 4T8: 165 + 85 = 250 DPS
while 4T7: 150 DPS
Is this 100 DPS increase in 4T8 worth more than the two peices of gear you would replace the two tier pieces with?
And is the 5% proc rate likely considering that people are reporting continuous procs?
So if as the above calcs are correct and 4t8=250dps, and 4t7=150. You can conclude that 4t8 is better. However, is it then beter than 2t7+2t8?
Also I was just watching some vids of vodka and mimiron. Boomkin in that video was proccing wratch eclipses. Which is fine, but I curious as the amount of haste that would be ideal for it. As of now, if I'm critting, wraths are still under 1 sec, so I'm clipping, and it makes no sense to use.
Is there an ideal amount and then stacking a crazy amount of crit that'll make this work better? With this question, I'm also assuming Crying Wind idol for IS, and IIS as well.
This is the best in slot list that I threw together last night. If someone could critique me and point out anything blatantly stupid that I may have missed, it'd be greatly appreciated.
max dps shows that +19 spell power gem is not as much dps as +16 haste, is this correct?
im new to moonkin, and im trying to get the exacts down, and im currently using wrath to proc eclipse,
if moonfire happens to expire before i start spamming starfire, should i refresh it before i start spamming starfire (in the eclipse) sense it refreshes it? or is it not worth the GCD during eclipse?
and does the IFF give me the 3% crit bonus using a feral druids FF?
This is the best in slot list that I threw together last night. If someone could critique me and point out anything blatantly stupid that I may have missed, it'd be greatly appreciated.
I think you can do better through use of the [Pennant Cloak] with [Sash of Ancient Power]. Ends up with +51 haste, -9 crit, -21 spell power over the set you're proposing, so it's pretty close really.
max dps shows that +19 spell power gem is not as much dps as +16 haste, is this correct?
im new to moonkin, and im trying to get the exacts down, and im currently using wrath to proc eclipse,
if moonfire happens to expire before i start spamming starfire, should i refresh it before i start spamming starfire (in the eclipse) sense it refreshes it? or is it not worth the GCD during eclipse?
and does the IFF give me the 3% crit bonus using a feral druids FF?
+19 SP is certainly better.
We never got totally solid results on DoT refreshing. I used to refresh MF at the beginning of an Eclipse (at least when I used Glyph of Starfire pre-3.1).
Don't forget that when on almost every fight your 2 piece T8 bonus will never have 100% uptime except on patchwerk. Think about how many times you've procced eclipse and then got picked up by Kologarn, thrown in the slag pot, had to go run AoE instead, had to move out of AoE, had to move out of something, etc. etc. Not == 100% uptime, whereas you always get the 4pc T7 bonus. In theory it might be a 15 - 17 DPS increase but in practice it is most likely inferior to 4 piece t7 bonus. Also, if you are upgrading to 4 pc t8.5 your stats are definitely going to suffer due to terrible stat itemization.
I use something very similar to that build. depending on ur tanks tho you don't need any agro talents. Yes, the extra range is nice but not necessary. i would take at least 1 point out and put it in improved moonfire bc especially if u use a solar eclipse you will crit more and uping your dps over all(not alot) but it will increase. i don't think you need all 3 points in moonglow as well. i run 25 man ulduar and we are on general and i haven't had any mana issues. Only fight is XT because i use typhoon/hurricane on the adds. other things are really just out of preference i could see taking brambles especially to put on trash (ie mimiron) to help slow and not do as much damage. owlkin frenzy is a pretty useful talent * i tank the head on mimiron so its nice bc when it does proc i can spam without getting interrupted. Just my 2 cents and u can do as you need but if your pulling off your tanks either they are bad or your not giving them 5 secs.
I use something very similar to that build. depending on ur tanks tho you don't need any agro talents. Yes, the extra range is nice but not necessary. i would take at least 1 point out and put it in improved moonfire bc especially if u use a solar eclipse you will crit more and uping your dps over all(not alot) but it will increase. i don't think you need all 3 points in moonglow as well. i run 25 man ulduar and we are on general and i haven't had any mana issues. Only fight is XT because i use typhoon/hurricane on the adds. other things are really just out of preference i could see taking brambles especially to put on trash (ie mimiron) to help slow and not do as much damage. owlkin frenzy is a pretty useful talent * i tank the head on mimiron so its nice bc when it does proc i can spam without getting interrupted. Just my 2 cents and u can do as you need but if your pulling off your tanks either they are bad or your not giving them 5 secs.
Thanks! I had the points in for the range not the aggro, my guilds tanks don't have any issues with it at all. And i was considering brambles, but wasn't sure if it was worth it, but I can see that it is, thanks! Thanks for your input
i run 25 man ulduar and we are on general and i haven't had any mana issues. Only fight is XT because i use typhoon/hurricane on the adds.
i wonder what im doing wrong. im assuming im going into ulduar with the same gear as most everyone else: 4p T7.5 + legs of the wanton spellcaster etc. im having to worry much more about mana then i used to. i have 3/3 intensity and even took 3/3 moonglow over 1/3 + 2/2 imp moonfire. lots of bosses require lots of hurricanes: XT corner adds, Razorscale adds, Freya adds, etc and some other bosses that are just longer fights i have some issues aswell. im almost always innervating myself which only gives like 5k mana these days, and often find myself popping runic manas intead of wild magics or speeds.
i wonder what im doing wrong. im assuming im going into ulduar with the same gear as most everyone else: 4p T7.5 + legs of the wanton spellcaster etc. im having to worry much more about mana then i used to. i have 3/3 intensity and even took 3/3 moonglow over 1/3 + 2/2 imp moonfire. lots of bosses require lots of hurricanes: XT corner adds, Razorscale adds, Freya adds, etc and some other bosses that are just longer fights i have some issues aswell. im almost always innervating myself which only gives like 5k mana these days, and often find myself popping runic manas intead of wild magics or speeds.
any thoughts?
This is just me and my guild * we don't aoe the trash on Freya bc when they all blow up we all fall down lol. (that actually happened) Razorscale adds i actually just single target focus bc i can get my rotation going and when Razorscale actually comes down im usually A) in the middle of an eclipse B) its over and i am spamming Starfire C) i target and do the regular rotation which is fine.
Side note make sure your 25 man is running with all the buffs (I'm sure you are just thinking of alternative answers).
Last edited by reverancee : 04/28/09 at 2:16 PM.
Reason: grammar error
i wonder what im doing wrong. im assuming im going into ulduar with the same gear as most everyone else: 4p T7.5 + legs of the wanton spellcaster etc. im having to worry much more about mana then i used to. i have 3/3 intensity and even took 3/3 moonglow over 1/3 + 2/2 imp moonfire. lots of bosses require lots of hurricanes: XT corner adds, Razorscale adds, Freya adds, etc and some other bosses that are just longer fights i have some issues aswell. im almost always innervating myself which only gives like 5k mana these days, and often find myself popping runic manas intead of wild magics or speeds.
any thoughts?
You AoE too much. Going through all fights:
FL: No mana problems, even if you are one of the guys getting shot up
Razorscale: Don't aoe 3 adds, it's usually not increasing your dps and worse for threat than finding the add thats getting main tanked. It should hardly be more than 5-6 hurricanes when adds are conveniently bunched up. Volunteer for shooting the harpoons if you think you won't be able to keep enough mana for p2.
Ignis: 4min zerg seems easier than doing it the normal way after all the nurfs, no mana problems at all then.
XT: I agree on this one, hurricane is not a great aoe spell for this as you can't move it with the groups. Don't recast too often and focus on shooting down the single bots that are ahead or behind the big group.
Assembly: 8-9min Normal mode has lots of running, no mana problems at all. Medium has aoe at the end, make sure you innervate early so you can do it a 2nd time for aoe in the end. Hard mode will be faster and require max dps, not sure where Boomkins will end up here, but if push comes to shove you could go easier in p2 to go into p3 with enough mana.
Kolorgarn: 3 AoE's max, do one or two on the rubbles, let the others finish off the last 10%. Running or being grabbed can work in your favour mana wise.
Cat lady: Make sure you know who the swarm is targeting (grid and enable the debuff, raidwarnings or whatever) and aim at the person not the mobs, this prevents having to recast hurricanes. Overall with fears and repositioning afterwards and for voids not a fight with big mana issues.
Hodir: The closer you get to doing the hard mode, the less of a problem mana will be (mana is a great concept).
Thorim: Hardly a fight where you shoot 24/7, never had mana problems there.
Freya: 2 AoE's total. Don't aoe 3 mobs of which you should dps 2 only anyway. The small mobs are usually so fast down that i have to interrupt the first hurricane to not kill them too early.
Mimiron: 0 Mana problems with 30sec transitions.
General: ...
YS: With enough dps theres plenty of downtime to regen mana. Hard mode might become nastier for mana as you cut it closer timing wise.
If push comes to shove you can also exchange trinkets or items for mana regen. Ask to get into the mana tide groups. Also upgrading your gear should usually give you a mana upgrade as you gain more int for the crit and replenish mana regens. I run with 1 in moonglow and 2 in intensity and find myself usually fine with my mana pool (using my own innervate).
Speaking more generally, go for exactly the amount of mana you need and focus on the fights your guild wipes most or wants to progress on, the other fights you will be able to manage raidwise even if you go lower in dps. Hopefully your guild can understand why you don't teleport to moonglade after every fight. Obviously after you got exactly enough mana it becomes the worst stat except maybe to open up the possibility to innervate someone else.
It seems they settled for just disabling mana issues for dps classes or giving them a small infight dps decrease like Evocation, Dispersion or Viper Aspect. I hope they can fix this for moonkins without completely screwing the tree's out there, but it feels like i'm playing a dps only class from 2 years ago while they drive their new sports cars on nitro.
i wonder what im doing wrong. im assuming im going into ulduar with the same gear as most everyone else: 4p T7.5 + legs of the wanton spellcaster etc. im having to worry much more about mana then i used to. i have 3/3 intensity and even took 3/3 moonglow over 1/3 + 2/2 imp moonfire. lots of bosses require lots of hurricanes: XT corner adds, Razorscale adds, Freya adds, etc and some other bosses that are just longer fights i have some issues aswell. im almost always innervating myself which only gives like 5k mana these days, and often find myself popping runic manas intead of wild magics or speeds.
any thoughts?
Well if your using solar eclipse as many people seem to be doing these days don't forget, one of the reasons lunar is so good is that it provides more crits and thus more mana from moonkin form so u might want to swap to lunar on fights where mana is a problem. Also, moonglow does not cut the mana cost of your AoE spells which are your biggest mana sink so you might consider going for Dreamstate instead.
I think you can do better through use of the [Pennant Cloak] with [Sash of Ancient Power]. Ends up with +51 haste, -9 crit, -21 spell power over the set you're proposing, so it's pretty close really.
That's a really good call. I was surprised that after I switched to using the 239 chest instead of the gloves the hit magically fell to 263. I took that as a sign from raptorjesus that I was on the right track.
So final consensus on taking 4pc tier 8? I've heard yes I've heard no. Anybody have testing done to say yes or no? It seems to be like they want us to have different rotations for different fights that being said they want us to rotate gear. I like the idea of running with 400 haste to not run into clipping the gcd. Is it better for lunar as well if you didn't stack haste over that just bc you wouldn't be wasting points when your spamming wrath? and could get better crit/sp etc? i understand 1 sec whatever starfires are nice but at wat point does it become wasteful itemization?
Here's the lowdown from what I've gathered playing with Rawr.
1) 4T8 is just not worth it. The ilevel 239 caster gear is just better itemized than the tier pieces, and the bonus as it stands is not strong enough to make up the difference.
2) Solar Eclipse becomes stronger when you accumulate a lot of crit and are at relatively low haste values. Higher haste and lower crit makes Lunar Eclipse stronger. From the gear available so far in Ulduar, it appears that Solar Eclipse is preferred - it seems the higher-level, better-itemized pieces are higher in crit and lower in haste.
3) Haste is still a decent stat above 400 haste rating, even if running a Solar Eclipse rotation. It will be partially wasted, of course, because of GCD clipping on Wrath, but it will still be of some benefit as long as you are casting at least one Starfire. For a Lunar Eclipse rotation, haste > crit unless you have absurd amounts of the former and none of the latter.
I'm having trouble with finding a complete, or the most complete, list of gear out right now, to compile my BiS list.
My rotation of choice is a solar eclipse, and I'm trying to find gear high in crit and moderate haste for that. Does anyone know where I can find a decent loot list to start forming my BiS?
Also, I don't know about you all, but I haven't used any mana regen talents since the xpac came out. I've never needed them, except on a few fights, and even then, only if it's a bad night. In those cases, i use innervate or a pot and I'm good. I don't get why everyone sees them as such staples, I have those points in dps talents.
I'm trying to compile a BiS list geared toward Solar myself, and I'd assume that the T8 2p bonus is basically required for that. But the individual pieces themselves are just so... underwhelming. I'm having a hard time justifying replacing any non-set piece with a T8 one.
Originally Posted by Florrie
It saddens me that despite your apparent success in life, there still exists within you a childish delight in lashing out at whim when you are disagreed with.
1) 4T8 is just not worth it. The ilevel 239 caster gear is just better itemized than the tier pieces, and the bonus as it stands is not strong enough to make up the difference.
Are you taking account of fights where you can have multiple IS running, or fights which require lots of movement? The sim may show in a pure stand-and-nuke fight that the bonus isn't worth it, but there's very few fights in Ulduar that are like that. Also 239 gear isn't exactly readily available right now, and any upgrades in terms of DPS from prior gear will make that gear more accessible by making the hard modes easier.
Cabrillo: I think it's a case of just pushing that button harder and making sure you get the most out of eclipse. Your gems and enchants are all good, and your spec is alright. If you've got a lot of mods installed you may want to try trimming them down to try and reduce lag as much as possible, and if you experience any graphical lag (especially in raids) you might want to turn some settings down to reduce computer lag as far as you can.
04/27/09, 5:22 PM
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