Moonkin Raiding - Page 43

Eilt · 03/09/09, 3:25 PM

Oh god, not again
we just got over haikus,
and you brought them back!

Saldek · 03/09/09, 6:57 PM

The Nature's Grace change is also a slight buff to Starfall as it will keep the buff up almost 100% of the time.

If you just got a NG lasting long enough to start 2 hasted Starfires and Starfall is running the chance to NOT get another crit before the next unhasted Starfire starts would be:
(assuming multiple targets, undebuffed, 30% crit chance on starfall, 50% on starfire
At least 6 stars would fall and 2 Starfires would hit)
0,7^6*0,5^2=~3%

In the same situation with one target, fully debuffed and about 40% crit chance on starfall and 50% on starfire the chance would be:
0,6^3*0,5^2=~5%

So, under starfall you are very likely to have NG up almost every cast.

Batguus · 03/10/09, 12:55 PM

Hmm what would the numbers be on using Starfall during a Wrath eclipse? I can see a stream of 1sec casttime, +30% dmg Wraths doing quite some nice burst. Ofcourse, with enough crit your NG uptime when spamming Wrath will be very high already.

Moonkin Kai · 03/10/09, 3:17 PM

The problem stems from the fact that, with Haste levels they are at the moment, Wrath will begin to be clipped. At the moment on live, with the current NG of 0.5 sec reduction, I'm clipping Wrath. Obviously, NG won't reduce Wraths cast time as much, but I still see SF Eclipse being the main powerhouse DPS increase, prehaps even more with the Starfall and NG changes.

I'm more curious about the standing of IS, as will the damage co-efficient increase be enough to keep us wanting to use it, or will we go back to our two main spells being MF and SF.

Erdluf · 03/10/09, 3:57 PM

Unglyphed IS (with Nature's Spendor): Base damage is more than SF base damage. Scaling per cast is 140%. Costs 1 GCD to cast.

Non-crit SF (with Moonfury and WoC): Scaling per cast is 132%. Costs 2 GCD to cast.

So ignoring latency (or possibly GCD clipping at very high haste), non-glyphed IS is higher DPET than Starfire, even at 100% crit. I think you will want to use it, unless the T8 bonus adds more than 30% to our nukes.

Saintdinic · 03/11/09, 1:05 AM

With the change of NG, and the change in our rotation to maximize dps at levels of haste under 400, would it be valuable for us that run higher than 400 to attempt to drop haste? We would add alot of crit in doing so, and I dont know how that would really work out.

Say currently I run 583 Haste , with 19.6% crit out of form, 2063 SP out of form.

Would I gain overall dps by dropping 'excess' haste, and pushing my crit up substaintially due to the change in rotation?

I realize that due to itemization costs, 1 haste > 1 crit, I was just something running through my head, any thoughts would be appreciated.

Remitroll · 03/11/09, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Saintdinic

With the change of NG, and the change in our rotation to maximize dps at levels of haste under 400, would it be valuable for us that run higher than 400 to attempt to drop haste? We would add alot of crit in doing so, and I dont know how that would really work out.

Say currently I run 583 Haste , with 19.6% crit out of form, 2063 SP out of form.

Would I gain overall dps by dropping 'excess' haste, and pushing my crit up substaintially due to the change in rotation?

I realize that due to itemization costs, 1 haste > 1 crit, I was just something running through my head, any thoughts would be appreciated.

With my current stats at 606 Haste, 16.77% crit and 1958 spellpower (out of form) I am starting to wonder the same thing. Come to that I already worry that I have favoured haste over crit too much

Fallenangel · 03/11/09, 10:48 AM

This was brought up in one of the resto threads - does NG reduce the GCD of just wrath or does it apply to every spell? PTR NG is of more interest but knowing both would be nice

It came up w.r.t to nourish, which will suffer the same problem wrath had with NG if its GCD isn't reduced, but it is also meaningful for moonkins since the new NG might affect the GCD (hence cast-time) of MF, IS and the other instants.

Cube · 03/11/09, 10:51 AM

I don't think it will really effect gearing all that much.

Given that it's possible to get upwards of 3 wrath casts and 2 starfire casts with the new NG, the total uptime for the buff should be close to 100% of the time, assuming ~45% crit raid buffed. NG's uptime was directly proportional to crit, and this increases uptime considerably. So, I think it's a buff, overall, without really changing any gearing strategies.

Plus, this helps with highly hasted wraths, because they're not clipping the GCD as much as before, leading to slightly smoother cast rotations.

Ashaera · 03/11/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Cube

I don't think it will really effect gearing all that much

For SF heavy rotations you are right - The amount of haste to push SF below 1.5sec casttime is out of reach or getting there would involve a very funky set of gear either way.

For W there is a huge latency penalty for going below 1sec casttime - This provides a cap of around 400 haste, at which point getting more hurts your dps quite alot. Main problem is that dropping 250 haste from gear is not that easy & leads to using items that are quite far from current best in slot (& this only gets worse as we reach higher tier's).

@Fallenangel - Crit = 20% haste for 3 seconds. No mentioning of spell restrictions to the NG-haste anywhere.

Olddrippy · 03/11/09, 3:39 PM

Edit: In my original post I was looking for a clear explanation of why we have an added latency penalty when our spell cast time is less than 1 second. I now understand that spells can be queued when you are in the GCD and break when your first cast finishes but you are still in the GCD. I was originally thinking that spells can't be queued at all until you are out of the GCD.

Videl · 03/11/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Olddrippy

Edit: In my original post I was looking for a clear explanation of why we have an added latency penalty when our spell cast time is less than 1 second. I now understand that spells can be queued when you are in the GCD and break when your first cast finishes but you are still in the GCD. I was originally thinking that spells can't be queued at all until you are out of the GCD.

Does anyone have the link for the study on this? I'm not having any luck searching it on these forums. If it's elsewhere any help would be appreciated. I think understanding this better would really help when it comes time to make decisions in some of those questionable situations.

Ashaera · 03/11/09, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Videl

Does anyone have the link for the study on this? I'm not having any luck searching it on these forums. If it's elsewhere any help would be appreciated. I think understanding this better would really help when it comes time to make decisions in some of those questionable situations.

Go play the game, this is easy to observe (I.e. theres no magic hidden theory, its just a basic observation of how the spellqueue system works).

Moonwhisper · 03/11/09, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

It's hard to imagine a practical scenario where both lunar and solar eclipses will be useful within one max-DPS rotation. One Eclipse will always provide more of a DPS gain than the other, and so long as they share a cooldown, the rotation will always focus on exclusively proccing whichever one is stronger.

actually this is very simple. Blizzard could reward alternating schemes.
if the lunar eclipse procs a buff that boosts your next solar eclipse and vice versa, (perhaps even stacks when you do this repeatedly). when such a buff outweighs the pure lunar eclipse your best rotation is alternating between solar and lunar.

I would highly appreciate if Blizz would come up with such a thing

It would reward in some way continous and disciplined sticking to your rotation.

• Adoriele · 03/11/09, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Moonwhisper

actually this is very simple. Blizzard could reward alternating schemes.
if the lunar eclipse procs a buff that boosts your next solar eclipse and vice versa, (perhaps even stacks when you do this repeatedly). when such a buff outweighs the pure lunar eclipse your best rotation is alternating between solar and lunar.

I would highly appreciate if Blizz would come up with such a thing

It would reward in some way continous and disciplined sticking to your rotation.

Not really. Currently, You have to make a conscious decision to change to the new spell once Eclipse is off ICD. With your proposed change, you'd change spells when Eclipse procs: reactive, versus proactive.