klüger

A halfway realistic way to solve that would be to give the charge stacks, but to have a cooldown so you cant say save up 3-4 charges and then become a burst-beast.

(Though, 4pc t8.5 being used in pvp I don't really see)

 

Quewatoka

Does Rawr model Scale of Fates by calculating the average haste provided by the effect? Or does it simulate using the trinket toward the beginning of a Lunar Eclipse? I expected a reusable Potion of Speed with 125 static SP to be one of the top three trinkets.

 

thedopefishlives

Neither. Rawr calculates trinkets by calculating the total damage done under each trinket proc and combination of trinket procs. It then performs probabilistic analysis on the calculated uptimes of the trinkets to determine the weighting it should give each trinket's damage total. These weighted numbers are added together to get the total damage done, taking into account all possible combinations of trinket uptimes. While not as sophisticated as Rawr.Mage's sequence reconstruction, it should provide an accurate average-case assessment of each trinket.

 

bodvarbjarki

4T8 proc rate goes to 15% in 3.1.2.

(Innervate is now 450% of base mana too!)

 

◊ Lord BEEF

That works out to be edit: 15732 at level 80 (Assuming my source for druid base mana at 80 is correct)

This should allow us to either completely ignore all mana talents when raiding, or pick up some and be able to give 17,000 mana to any healer or mana user.

 

anyakaschala

That's a very, very interesting idea. Thus you could go with something like
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...7&version=9835

Especially now that thorns is based on our sp and a well geared boomkin, untalented thorns does about 250ish damage per hit, thus 75% increase will put it over 400, and assuming most fights require about 3 tanks, that can add up to a lot of damage.

Or would putting points in genesis make more of a difference?

 

• Arawethion

I imagine you'd just go back to the pre-3.1 spec. Also, dropping Lunar Guidance and MSS is a bit weird.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

anyakaschala

wow, nice catch, I didn't even realize I did that. I was wondering why there seemed to be a few too many ponts.

switched by getting rid of iIS.

 

Anastassius

Getting a 15% to proc for an instant starfire , would mean one every 20-21 seconds as i understand it. With an average damage of 10k on a starfire,takes us to a 500 dps increase?

Just some rough thoughts here, still not sure if its worth to take the 4 set. Legs and another Tier, as in shoulders or hands and then the cloth head from razorscale, cloth chest from Kologarn and one of the 2 remaining items heroic mode Leviathan(shoulders) or Hodir (hands).

 

Numeno

Not quite. 500dps increase assumes that nothing would normally be cast in that ~1.3-1.4 seconds. The starfire cast I assume still uses a GCD. So basically your replacing a wrath with a starfire every ~20 seconds. The proc is far better for Lunar than Solar.



On the innervate change. What base mana did you get for ~15k mana return? I take off all my gear and am sitting at ~5800. 450% of that is ~26k.


EDIT - Nevermind, didn't realize base int wasn't included in base mana.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

A) Your math assumes that the starfire takes no time to cast. More realistically you get half of a starfire in "free damage" since you still have a global cooldown, so it'd be about half of what you're estimating if you average 10k on starfire which is a little bit higher than what I'm getting.

B) There's currently a bug where if you're casting a starfire and get the proc, that cast that you already started consumes the proc. They need to fix this for the set bonus to be of much worth at all

edit: base mana is naked mana, minus mana from base intellect

 

Starfox

Tauren: 14472 mana from 3.1.2 Innervate
They should just make 4/5 T8 to allow DoTs to crit

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

 

Horao

Celestial Focus VS Owlkin Frenzy in Ulduar

I was pondering the number of fights that have aoe damage or damage taken by casters and I was curious about the comparison between Celestial Focus and Owlkin Frenzy. 3% haste always VS 10% damage proc

Flame Leviathan - NA
Razorscale - Flame breaths from above, lower odds of being active when she comes down. Does her flame buffet when she is in phase 2 proc it, even if its doing no damage?
Ignis - Flame Vents / slag pot.
XT - people with light bomb get a tick or two as they run away. Temper tantrum.
Council - With any sort of decent healing can stand near enough to take the lightning aura of steelbreaker, but on a good fight very few chain lightnings and lightning whirls will get out.
Kologarn - His aoe nature blast is consistent, plus possible grip.
Auriya - plenty of things hitting you.
Hodir - Even if you perfectly avoid every falling ceiling, flash freeze does damage to the entire raid.
Thorim - If you avoid the lightning, not sure that ranged is really taking much damage. On hard mode, I'm sure Sif's various frost spells would tho.
Freya - During the add phases plenty of opportunities for it to proc, but during the boss herself if your avoiding the pods, doubt it would proc at all.
Mirmiron - P1 only from napalm cannon, P2 heat wave / gun, P3 none really, P4 hand pulses
General - Curious about his aura if it is considered being re-applied constantly and would proc Frenzy a lot, if not then at least the refilling of your mana / random damage would proc.
Yogg - Haven't done yet, unsure.

Seems like the majority of the fights have good opportunities to proc it, not to mention some of them have hard modes which would cause even more procs.

So I guess I have 2 thoughts:
1. Straight up, I'm curious how the two compare side by side.
2. If your using solar eclipse and already have your 400 haste, it would seem that there'd be no need for more, so Owlkin would win out?

 

Skjaven

I haven't tested it myself, but without spell- and aurahits it seems not to be worthwhile.

ad 2: You need 400 haste rating as well as all the other haste-improving talents and buffs, to push the casttime of wrath under 1 second (while under the NG buff).

 

klüger

This is a tooltip error, it was first changed to that description in 3.1 on PTR but they changed the proc nature back to how it was pre 3.1.

To summarize: Frenzy works exactly like it did pre 3.1, its just the tooltip that is bugged.

It could be an alternative to have your offspecc be with owlkinfrenzy, but I'm still unconvinced of its viability for pve. Three talent points is a lot for a relative small chance. (esp considering what you gain for those three (either iis or cf i reckon))
Add to it that if you are choosing between frenzy and cf, you have no interrupt-protection for sf when frenzy is not up. For a lunar eclipse that would be utterly devastating I'd imagine.

 

Anastassius

Last night i used for the first time 2 points in Owlkin frenzy in Ulduar so far. We did thorim, hodir and freya. The proc was good on most fights and i would like to squeeze another point in it to make it 3/3.

With the new change on innervate,i will try going with no mana talents, take out gale winds,but keep treants and typhoon (with the minor glyph that takes push back away,since it annoys tanks). The daze from typhoon helps on the trash and boss fights which include mini adds and saves the raid from some hits when we are overwhelmed.

I won't use brambles, nor want to waste any talent points in it for some dps gain on tanks or pets that get hit. Tried it also on some melees,but it doesn't help tanks to get aggro back from loose adds.

As for gear,cause my last post wasn't clear enough and also got a warning about it :

Collar of the Wyrmhunter for head , Robes of the Umbral Brute for chest,along with T8 legs and/or hands/shoulders, completing the set with either Shoulderpads of Dormant Energies or Gloves of the Frozen Glade.

Bracers of the Broodmother,Boots of Hasty Revival,Belt of Arctic Life ,Staff of Endless Winter or Soulscribe with off hand, Drape of Mortal Downfall, Pendant of Fiery Havoc, Pyrelight Circle, Frozen Loop , Flare of the Heavens/Eye of the Broodmother, Scale of Fates, Idol of the Crying Wind for not having to stick to one type of eclipse.

All these are still hard to get with loot priority,but seem as a good Ulduar moonkin set.

One thing that bothers me is the little feedback we got of the t8 4 set bonus,we'll have to see in the future i guess

 

spiritryu

Managed to get onto the PTR just now.
Tested to see whether the bug where if you gained the instant starfire proc(named Elune's Wrath) while casting a Starfire, you'd lose it when the Starfire finished casting.
Tested it a couple times to make sure it was right, and the bug is still there.
Also tested with the new 15% proc rate on the 4pc bonus to see if an internal CD was added.
Elune's Wrath refreshed itself, so it's safe to assume there is no internal CD.
And lastly, tested the mana returns of Innervate.
I dropped my mana down to around 300 and Innervated myself. I ended up at about 8k mana after the duration. The tooltip clearly stated the new version too.
I just got booted off for the server shutdown so I can't post my int/spirit levels when I Innervated. I'll post them if needed after I get back on tomorrow.

 

Benita

Brambles does not work on other people anymore. The tooltip of the talent is ambiguous anyway "Damage from your Thorns", but it was stealth hotfixed mid april to only work on the caster.

 

Ubaka

Maybe its me (it typically always is) but I like to have my innervate to use on either my Pally Healer or Mage. Mainly my Mage so he can go buck nutty on his casting. So I stack points in Intensity for myself, though even with these I had to pop Innervate on myself for Iron Con. and RazorScale I came close.

For Razorscale I spam Wrath on the trash until proc of Eclipse then SF until CD is close and when Razorscale herself is down FFF, Treants, IS, MF, Wrath till Proc SF while this is going on I cast Starfall every time the CD expires (unless of course I am in the middle of an eclipse.) I use mana pots when need be since my healers are always on point.

Is something off with my Mana or Cycle that would cause me to be rough on mana with pts in Intensity or I am just getting lash back from the Mana Regen Nerfing?

 

Lemzix

Using your innervate on a pally before the change is a complete waist. Pallies dont use spirit. Much better going to druids or priests. After the innervate change it will be great for any mana user.

Also on a seperate topic. Im curious why people list Belt of Arctic Life for their ideal belt. I would definately choose Sash of Ancient Power. Using Ancient Power over Arctic Life yields +9 haste, +43 hit, +4 Int, -10 stam, -57 spirit. Basically trading spirit for hit seems like a no brainer, allowing budget for less hit elsewhere.

 

Ainur

I came up with a simple system that helps a lot as far as trying to pick hit pieces, since there's a wide variety of them. Using lootrank, you can easily develop scores for all the different gear based on scaling factors of your choice. I looked at all the hit pieces, but left the hit scaling at zero. You can then go through and calculate the difference between BiS after hit cap and the individual hit pieces. Assuming the score of the hit pieces is lower, take the hit it provides and divide by the score difference. This gives you a numerical scale for the opportunity cost of equipping the various hit items, especially since hit is so spread out on all sorts of pieces.
My scaling factors gave the Leggings of the Enslaved Idol, Sash of Ancient Power and Collar of the Wyrmhunter as the clearly best choices in these regards (moreso than any other hit pieces), but that may vary based on your scaling factors.

 

Erdluf

From last night:

0:00'00.547 Coringe Thorns reflects 379 Nature damage to Emalon the Storm Watcher #1. #23418
0:00'02.641 Schleg Thorns reflects 362 Nature damage to Emalon the Storm Watcher #1. #23447
0:00'04.704 Schleg Thorns reflects 362 Nature damage to Emalon the Storm Watcher #1. #23524
0:00'05.907 Coringe Thorns reflects 379 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #3. #23565
0:00'07.470 Coringe Thorns reflects 379 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #2. #23700
0:00'07.939 Coringe Thorns reflects 379 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #3. #23738
0:00'11.408 Schleg Thorns reflects 409 Nature damage to Emalon the Storm Watcher #1. #24033
0:00'12.642 Coringe Thorns reflects 379 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #1. #24164
0:00'18.252 Schleg Thorns reflects 409 Nature damage to Emalon the Storm Watcher #1. #24813

Coringe is a DK. Schleg is a Warrior.

Schleg's jump from 362 to 409 is 13% from E&M going up on Emalon.

If the only talent helping Schleg's early numbers was Brambles, my spellpower would have only been about 2028 which seems low for even a PuG 25-man. I suppose it is possible that I gave him Thorns before I was buffed (my unbuffed boss gear is only around 1900 SP in form).

On the other hand, if Schleg's thorns were also benefitting both my E&M and my MSS, but not my Brambles, my Spellpower would had to have been 4014, and that doesn't seem likely either.

The only other boost I saw for Schleg's damage was Tricks of the Trade, but it went up at 5s and down at 10s, so shouldn't affect these results.

Unless there is another significant buff to Thorns damage out there (or the coefficient has changed from the previous 6.6%) it seems like my Brambles must have been at least partially effective.

Edit: In a later try, I took a hit from Emalon and my Thorns did 394, the Warrior on Emalon averaged 373 and the Warrior on the Minions averaged 349. Another druid (I assume he buffed himself and did not have Brambles) had one hit for 237.

I'd guess that Thorns can be partially resisted, but those resist numbers are not showing in current WWS reports. For a Warrior:
0:00'20.643 Fightordie Thorns reflects 362 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #4. #34339
0:00'20.643 Fightordie Thorns reflects 362 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #1. #34341
0:00'22.206 Fightordie Thorns reflects 326 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #2. #34608
0:00'22.956 Fightordie Thorns reflects 289 Nature damage to Tempest Minion #4. #34707

 

Cdin

I've been thinking about the 4T8 Set Bonus and wanted to throw something out there.

This set bonus has two benefits.

1. It gives you the ability to cast a nuke while moving. This benifit would be infrequent but still nice. Unfortunately I have no clue as to how to quantify it.

2. The second benefit is that it saves you time and allows you to cast a second spell. I am going to try and quantify the value of that saved time.

I am a little unsure of my results so I wanted to put them out there to be torn apart by the masses.

Assumptions.
My hypothetical Moonkin has 2900 spell power, 41% crit chance, 29.44% haste (16.2% from gear), and is fully hit capped. I also a relatively standard Talent build. If you want an example, look at mine. Graylo on US-Garona.

This Translates into the following relative stat values: Hit = 1.48, SP = 1, Haste = 0.84, Crit =0.80, Int = 0.35, Spirit = 0.15.

I'm also assuming a single target and that there is no internal cooldown on the proc.

The Math:

First I want to calculate the average Cast times of SF and Wrath.

If you include a 0.1 second delay for the spell queuing issue then the avg Wrath and GCD lengths are:

Now lets look at the average damage you get from SF and Wrath:

So, When 4T8 procs you cast a SF cast in 1.1498 seconds instead of 2.0525 seconds, thus saving you 0.9027 seconds to cast another spell. How much is this extra time worth?

If I assume a Lunar rotation where SF is cast 75% of the time and W the other 25% then each proc is worth 3625 on average

Now, lets see how often 4T8 will proc.

With a 15% proc rate it should proc on average once every 6.6667 ticks (1/0.15=6.6667). Assuming 100% uptime that would be 1 proc ever 13.3333 seconds. So the set bonus is worth 272 DPS (3625/13.333=272). In comparison the 4T7 set bonus increases DPS by about 192 DPS for the same hypothetical moonkin. Of course you won't have 100% uptime on IS, but even with just a 70% uptime the DPS boost is 190 DPS.

There are a lot of ifs in this analysis, and I have a really hard time believing that there is no Internal Cooldown for the set bonus as some have reported. However, if it doesn't its looking like this could be a very nice set bonus.

www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

 

spiritryu

Here's a screenshot of the combat log for when it refreshed itself.
The buff lasts 10 seconds, so at minimum, if there is an internal CD, it isn't be longer than 10 seconds.
And going by the combat log, it refreshed itself on the 2nd tick after the first proc.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9748/...0109044625.jpg

 

Korhaug

This is a difficult subject to model. Here are the largest holes I see in your assumptions:

* I believe your NG uptime calculation isn't sufficiently grounded. It assumes constant casting of the appropriate spell, which is never true even in a standing fight. Movement, IS, Starfall, FoN, Eclipse and Innervate all affect the calculation in significant ways. At the very least you need to account for the IS casting time and for the higher NG uptime inside eclipse (you then see the interesting phenomena that inside Eclipse each proc saves you less time, but the average SF damage is higher). Even then movement is going to reduce NG uptime drastically in almost every fight.

* The standard spell queuing/latency delay is usually taken as 0.2sec, not 0.1sec. Not a major change there, but people should keep a close eye on this - the effective GCD is highly affected by latency and performance, and even small changes there can cut the benefit from this bonus to a fraction of your calculation.

* What happens when you get a proc during your wrath spamming section of the cycle? My napkin math tells me it's not worth it to risk a solar eclipse, so it will go to waste unless you get the lunar Eclipse soon enough. I'm not sure how large the loss is here, but it's probably non-negligible. And if the proc overwrites itself if not used quickly enough, as spirityu suggests, then you should just stop assuming that all procs will be used altogether.

Overall the buffed bonus seems good, and might be worth picking up 4T8 for (especially after they buff spirit's benefit into usefulness), but there is no chance that the bonus provides a higher DPS increase under realistic circumstances then the 4T7 bonus.