Moonkin Raiding - Page 47

Lilija · 03/20/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Nenaunir

After 3.1 If there's a Feral and a Shadow Priest in the raid there will still be no need to cast Faerie Fire yourself, since the shadow priest will provide the 3% hit and the Feral will keep up Faerie Fire which will also give you 3% crit. The latter was confirmed in a blue post.

If there's no Shadow Priest or no Feral in the raid you should keep up Faerie Fire yourself as it is now. So the priority to keep up Faerie Fire doesn't change, but it just gets easier to do so with a 5 min duration.

It still is better to apply it. As far as I know not all SP spells apply the debuff while for us iFF will always be the very first cast. So in fact we are able to apply it a bit earlier. Not to mention that both moonkins and shadow priests keep hit on level that counts in the hit debuff so there is always a slight chance for a miss - 2 sources of the debuff minimize that rare however possible situation when the hit debuff is delayed by a very unlucky resist. And since iFF will be long debuff the lost from keeping it up is minimal - not to mention that nuking just from start usually isn't the best possible choise anyway so iFF is a safe and usefull way for using the first GCD

Novae5 · 03/20/09, 12:52 PM

I'm new to theorycrafting boomkins, but isnt the 2pc tier 8 bonus superior to the 4pc bonus on tier 7.5?

Prior to today's announcement:
Tier 7 gave +5% critical to wrath and starfire
Tier 8 gave +6% to eclipse meaning, +6% critical to starfire and +6% damage to wrath during the appropriate eclipse? I realize the 5% is static and always on, but it doesn't seem like that big of a loss.

Now with today's announcement of +15% to eclipse, this seems like it would be a lot better than the previous 5% bonus to starfire and wrath.

Has anyone crunched any numbers yet to see if this 15% boost to eclipse comes out higher than the 5% static boost?

thedopefishlives · 03/20/09, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Novae5

I'm new to theorycrafting boomkins, but isnt the 2pc tier 8 bonus superior to the 4pc bonus on tier 7.5?

Prior to today's announcement:
Tier 7 gave +5% critical to wrath and starfire
Tier 8 gave +6% to eclipse meaning, +6% critical to starfire and +6% damage to wrath during the appropriate eclipse? I realize the 5% is static and always on, but it doesn't seem like that big of a loss.

Now with today's announcement of +15% to eclipse, this seems like it would be a lot better than the previous 5% bonus to starfire and wrath.

Has anyone crunched any numbers yet to see if this 15% boost to eclipse comes out higher than the 5% static boost?

They're roughly equal. Rawr puts 4T7 at ~180 DPS and 2T8 at ~178 DPS.

• Adoriele · 03/20/09, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

They're roughly equal. Rawr puts 4T7 at ~180 DPS and 2T8 at ~178 DPS.

This. Consider that, for most people, you'll spend ~12s of a ~35s rotation under the effects of Eclipse (to the point where it can help. You're going to lose some of it to reaction time, and your final cast will likely not be affected). This means you're averaging about a third of its benefit and, if that's a Lunar Eclipse, that makes it pretty much identical to 4T7. If you're going Solar, you might notice an increased effect, since 5% damage is minorly more important than 5% crit.

Needznerf · 03/20/09, 1:42 PM

How do you guys feel about the current item trend, with regen stats like spirit and mp5 being on most if not all peices. I was looking over the loot list today and I see very few pure dps items. Does anyone know if they plan on releasing more dps geared items from hard modes, or is spirit just something we are going to have to get used to on gear?

And if spirit is just something we going to have to get used to, with the what 12.5% crit we lose by upgrading to tier 8 and with the changes in 3.1, you think it will be better to get a certain crit value or still focus on hit > sp > haste > crit?

thedopefishlives · 03/20/09, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Needznerf

How do you guys feel about the current item trend, with regen stats like spirit and mp5 being on most if not all peices. I was looking over the loot list today and I see very few pure dps items. Does anyone know if they plan on releasing more dps geared items from hard modes, or is spirit just something we are going to have to get used to on gear?

And if spirit is just something we going to have to get used to, with the what 12.5% crit we lose by upgrading to tier 8 and with the changes in 3.1, you think it will be better to get a certain crit value or still focus on hit > sp > haste > crit?

I ran a quick experiment with Rawr to determine a theoretical best-in-slot set for Ulduar gear. Surprisingly enough, most of the crit that is "lost" is regained from non-set pieces (most especially the delicious ilevel 239 staff!). The biggest loss is nearly 200 haste rating from T7->T8, but that is compensated for by a gain of nearly 500 spell power. I see no reason to change the basic gearing strategy; there just isn't as much haste gear going around, is all.

Cdin · 03/20/09, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

This. Consider that, for most people, you'll spend ~12s of a ~35s rotation under the effects of Eclipse (to the point where it can help. You're going to lose some of it to reaction time, and your final cast will likely not be affected). This means you're averaging about a third of its benefit and, if that's a Lunar Eclipse, that makes it pretty much identical to 4T7. If you're going Solar, you might notice an increased effect, since 5% damage is minorly more important than 5% crit.

When I ran the numbers for my blog last week I found that the Solar Eclipse would be a little worse then Lunar Eclipse even at that the increase set bonus of 15%.

With an extra 15% crit chance Natures Grace has a near 100% uptime. This pushed 15% crit to be a little bit higher then 15% damage in terms of DPS.

Starfox · 03/21/09, 1:00 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

There's also the fact that any haste effect that drops SF's cast time will also drop the GCD proportionately. So you're still getting Starfires at half the normal cast time when 4T8 procs (i.e. similar to a 100% haste proc), until your cast times are under 2s (50% total haste which, under NG, was previously calculated to be about 400 Haste rating with full raid buffs). Even after that, you're getting a major haste to Starfire with the proc well until you have enough haste close to the then-capped 1s GCD.

Consider that the old (okay, current) NG was effectively 20% haste already (i.e., for Starfire, there is no change in cast time reduction from NG). The set bonus proc is 5 times as powerful.

The current Item - Druid T8 Balance 4P Bonus - Spell - World of Warcraft is WAY worse than you imagine in its current form. A measly 3% chance per tick makes this one instant starfire every 66 seconds. From 0% to 50% haste SF casttime is exactly double the GCD it triggers, so every 66sec we get one instat SF. This means we save half the casttime (if you are beyond GCD cap it gets worse), so we get ONE HALF Starfire every 66sec for PW like encounters. Another problem is, if you use wrath to proc eclipse, you are at wrath in the cycle and you get the 4T8 buff, what do you do? Use the buff and risk a the wrong eclipse? Wait and hope the eclipse procs soon enough?

Tested it with some SimulationCraft runs:
Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Gear: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner
Glyph: IS/MF/SF

Druid_T8_58_00_13 has no setbonuses active at all
Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8 has 4t8, uses the proc as soon as possible, if it procs the wrong eclipse he will use it
Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk has 4t8 and takes not risk to proc the wrong elicpse

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.1.0 (iterations=5000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1)

DPS Ranking:
  17008 100.0%  Raid
   5683  33.4%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8
   5680  33.4%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk
   5665  33.3%  Druid_T8_58_00_13

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13  DPS=5664.7 (Error=+/-4.7 Range=+/-894)  DPR=17.8  RPS=318.5/262.0  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=885  intellect=1009  spirit=369  health=16272  mana=22472
  Spell Stats:  power=2255  hit=14.0%  crit=15.8%  penetration=0  haste=18.5%  mp5=15
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.0%  crit=9.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0.0  haste=24.1%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 19.6|15.0sec  DPE= 8687|10%  DPET= 7392  DPR=  30.3  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=133  Tick=1274
    moonfire              Count= 12.3|24.4sec  DPE=10820| 8%  DPET= 9148  DPR=  14.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 319  Crit=  667|  735|43.2%  TickCount=92  Tick=1381
    starfall              Count= 68.8| 7.5sec  DPE=  617| 3%  DPET= 9614  DPR=   8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 438  Crit=  917| 1603|37.4%
    starfire              Count= 92.0| 3.0sec  DPE=10395|58%  DPET= 5277  DPR=  18.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6491  Crit=13567|15629|55.2%
    wrath                 Count= 54.3| 5.1sec  DPE= 5031|17%  DPET= 4311  DPR=  13.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3582  Crit= 7486| 8588|37.1%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1643| 4%  DPET= 1128  DPR=   0.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1714  Crit= 3426| 3624|8.3%  Glance=1286|24.0%  Dodge=6.4%

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8  DPS=5682.7 (Error=+/-4.8 Range=+/-735)  DPR=17.8  RPS=319.6/263.1  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=885  intellect=1009  spirit=369  health=16272  mana=22472
  Spell Stats:  power=2255  hit=14.0%  crit=15.8%  penetration=0  haste=18.5%  mp5=15
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.0%  crit=9.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0.0  haste=24.1%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 19.6|15.0sec  DPE= 8687|10%  DPET= 7386  DPR=  30.3  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=133  Tick=1274
    moonfire              Count= 12.3|24.4sec  DPE=10828| 8%  DPET= 9161  DPR=  14.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 319  Crit=  667|  735|43.2%  TickCount=92  Tick=1380
    starfall              Count= 68.7| 7.5sec  DPE=  617| 3%  DPET= 9612  DPR=   8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 439  Crit=  915| 1603|37.4%
    starfire              Count= 92.0| 3.0sec  DPE=10369|58%  DPET= 5292  DPR=  18.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6494  Crit=13564|15629|54.8%
    wrath                 Count= 55.0| 5.1sec  DPE= 5096|17%  DPET= 4368  DPR=  13.4  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3624  Crit= 7571|11164|37.3%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1639| 4%  DPET= 1125  DPR=   0.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1714  Crit= 3428| 3624|8.1%  Glance=1285|24.1%  Dodge=6.5%

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk  DPS=5680.0 (Error=+/-4.9 Range=+/-763)  DPR=17.8  RPS=319.3/263.1  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=885  intellect=1009  spirit=369  health=16272  mana=22472
  Spell Stats:  power=2255  hit=14.0%  crit=15.8%  penetration=0  haste=18.5%  mp5=15
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.0%  crit=9.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0.0  haste=24.1%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 19.5|15.0sec  DPE= 8689|10%  DPET= 7390  DPR=  30.3  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=133  Tick=1274
    moonfire              Count= 12.3|24.4sec  DPE=10831| 8%  DPET= 9159  DPR=  14.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 319  Crit=  666|  735|43.2%  TickCount=92  Tick=1380
    starfall              Count= 68.4| 7.5sec  DPE=  617| 3%  DPET= 9613  DPR=   8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 438  Crit=  916| 1603|37.4%
    starfire              Count= 92.5| 3.0sec  DPE=10395|58%  DPET= 5301  DPR=  18.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6492  Crit=13564|15629|55.2%
    wrath                 Count= 54.1| 5.2sec  DPE= 5033|17%  DPET= 4313  DPR=  13.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3581  Crit= 7486| 8588|37.2%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1640| 4%  DPET= 1126  DPR=   0.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1714  Crit= 3428| 3624|8.2%  Glance=1285|24.1%  Dodge=6.4%

Gains:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5234.4
        initial_mana=22470.9
        innervate=3021.9
        judgement_of_wisdom=7181.0
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=34179.0
        mp5_regen=5897.1
        omen_of_clarity=5459.7
        replenishment=16188.7

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5235.2
        initial_mana=22470.9
        innervate=3315.2
        judgement_of_wisdom=7169.2
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=34209.7
        mp5_regen=5897.8
        omen_of_clarity=5466.0
        replenishment=16190.8

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5235.5
        initial_mana=22470.9
        innervate=3199.3
        judgement_of_wisdom=7169.5
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=34311.2
        mp5_regen=5898.4
        omen_of_clarity=5449.3
        replenishment=16191.9

Procs:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13:
        dying_curse=5.9|49.3sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=94.6|3.1sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.4|27.8sec

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8:
        dying_curse=5.9|49.3sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=94.5|3.1sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.4|27.8sec
        tier8_4pc=4.0|72.7sec

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk:
        dying_curse=5.9|49.5sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=94.5|3.1sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.4|27.9sec
        tier8_4pc=4.0|72.2sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy
        100.0% : improved_scorch
        100.0% : improved_shadow_bolt
        100.0% : master_poisoner
        100.0% : savage_combat
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath
        100.0% : winters_chill

    Druid_T8_58_00_13:
        50.6% : eclipse_starfire
        73.3% : natures_grace
        100.0% : replenishment

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8:
        49.6% : eclipse_starfire
         4.0% : eclipse_wrath
        73.2% : natures_grace
        100.0% : replenishment

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk:
        50.7% : eclipse_starfire
        73.3% : natures_grace
        100.0% : replenishment

Waiting:
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_T8norisk

:-(

• Adoriele · 03/21/09, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

:-(

Hmm. Detailed enough numbers that I decided to run my own instead of napkining, and they appear to be correct (I got preliminary numbers from the Rawr developer that showed a similar 300 DPS increase to what I'd napkined). Which means that yeah, 3% chance to proc going live would pretty much blow, though I'd been estimating a 5% chance to proc for napkin (I am now on a quest to use that word as often as possible). 15% would put the buff back at the afore-mentioned 300 DPS, and would also give us approximately 1 proc per IS.

Horao · 03/21/09, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

You cannot cast spells faster than 1s. This has nothing to do with queuing, and everything to do with the GCD. Even if you could queue a spell during the GCD, 95% of Wraths will be unaffected by haste past 400 rating. You just simply cannot cast it any faster.

Forgive my dumbness here, I must be missing something. But in looking at the patch notes, I must be mis-understanding this.

2.4.0
Spell Haste: Spell haste now reduces the global cooldown on spells, down to a minimum of 1 second. This change does not apply to melee and ranged abilities.

3.0.2
Nature's Grace (Balance): Now also reduces the global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 50% while in effect.

So if we are hasted enough to have a 1 second global cooldown, when Natures Grace procs, shouldn't that take Wrath's global cooldown to .5?

Again I apologize if I've missed some discussion in the past where this was already answered.

Edited the 3.0.9 to 3.0.2.

alpiino · 03/21/09, 8:47 AM

A little comparison between caster T8 sets:

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

Conclusion: Druid set is utter crap compared to all other caster sets. They traded our dmg stats into spirit

And if the 4pc bonus has 3% chance to proc/tick I suspect that we will see a lot of druids with 2 pieces of T8 and cloth in other slots.

Hjalte · 03/21/09, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Horao

3.0.9
Nature's Grace (Balance): Now also reduces the global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 50% while in effect.

I am pretty sure that this is from before haste was allowed to lower the gcd to 1.0 seconds.

Latas · 03/21/09, 11:13 AM

What happened with NG was before it would drop wraths cast time by .5 seconds but it wouldnt do the same for the gcd of wrath. So if you had a 1.5 second wrath cast time, it would drop to 1 sec but the gcd of wrath would still be at 1.5 sec.

Horao · 03/21/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hjalte

I am pretty sure that this is from before haste was allowed to lower the gcd to 1.0 seconds.

Actually I misposted, it was "World of Warcraft Client Patch 3.0.2: Echoes of Doom" where I pulled that from, which should be the one right before the expansion went live. The haste affecting GCD was "2.4.0 (2008-03-25)". So haste affecting GCD was a good 7-8 months in place.

Originally Posted by Latas

What happened with NG was before it would drop wraths cast time by .5 seconds but it wouldnt do the same for the gcd of wrath. So if you had a 1.5 second wrath cast time, it would drop to 1 sec but the gcd of wrath would still be at 1.5 sec.

That was the problem, but the fix didn't reduce the global cooldown by .5, it reduces it by 50%. So with no haste, it should reduce it by .75. Thus at 1 second GCD it reduces it to .5.

Hence the original question remains, if it reduces the GCD of wrath by 50%, isn't is possible to throw wraths faster than 1 second?

Dreavgona · 03/21/09, 12:34 PM

Havent had a chance to run Ulduar yet, but has anyone noticed big mana issues in there? I normaly didnt run any mana regen talents apart from omen of clarity, but I am expecting that with the much longer fights in ulduar, some mana regen talents may be needed, and if so, just how much more regen is needed?
Moonglow is fairly easy to get, and for just a minor dps loss, but will we actually need to get dreamstate and/or intensity? With my current gear (Half topped out on 25 man gear) my innervate is just about useless on the ptr, giving back at most 5k mana thanks to the nerf to spirit and with the massive loss of crits giving back mana aswell as the loss of wisdom or totem, just how badly will we be strapped for mana when Ulduar does come out?

I can fairly easily pick up either dreamstate or intensity (Would be dreamstate with my current gear, gaining a bit more mp5 from that one), at the cost of aoe talents, but will having just one of those talents actually be enough? One of those pretty much covers the loss of wisdom/totem, but will we actually have to abandon either faerie fire or improved insect swarm to pick up the other aswell?

And if we do need to drop one of those talents, can our dps still be competitive with the loss of even more crit?

Hopefully I am just being paranoid and scared of losing the dps I finaly managed to get, but any opinion would be welcomed.