Moonkin Raiding - Page 49

thedopefishlives · 03/23/09, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Alerian

Ghost has mentioned that the entire Ulduar loot tables are as expansive as the entire BC loot tables for all raids (from KZ through SW). I'm currently compiling at BiS list for all specs for my guild, but this is extremely close to impossible at this point in time.

If no one has done so at the appropriate point in time, I'll post the MK Ulduar BiS items at some point in the next few weeks. Obviously, this list will be based on certain stat weights (I will likely assume any MK is hit capped in my BiS list).

I've done my best to simulate a BiS list using the data currently on WoWhead and the development version of Rawr. Points to ponder:

1) Most of the BiS gear looks to be the cloth non-spirit items. Big surprise there.
2) Only 2 pieces of T8 were selected. The new math based on Starfox's uptime assumptions shows 4T8 at 3% to be only ~45 DPS if that, and taking the three nicer cloth pieces far outweighs the set bonus at this time. The pieces the optimizer chose were shoulders and legs.
3) Generally speaking, the highest ilevel gear was chosen. The ilevel 239 neck, gloves, and staff are on the list.
4) Holdovers from T7 are the Pennant Cloak from Sarth+2/3, the Signet from KT, and the Illustration of the Dragon Soul. I didn't check the idol, nor do I plan to, as I imagine the Starfire and Wrath idols are better (depending on which Eclipse you're proccing).

princeinexile · 03/23/09, 2:26 PM

Given the nerf to spirit-based mana regen in 3.1, does Intensity still trump Dreamstate? If we need to pick up mana-longevity talents, where will we get the most bang for our talent point buck? Searches for this kind of info have only turned up pre-3.1 data.

thedopefishlives · 03/23/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by princeinexile

Given the nerf to spirit-based mana regen in 3.1, does Intensity still trump Dreamstate? If we need to pick up mana-longevity talents, where will we get the most bang for our talent point buck? Searches for this kind of info have only turned up pre-3.1 data.

While-casting regen has not changed at all. If you were doing fine without it pre-3.1, you will do fine without it post-3.1. The only thing that remains to be seen is if we will need MORE mana regen due to the nature of the fights, less crit giving us fewer Moonkin Form procs, etc.

princeinexile · 03/23/09, 4:55 PM

Yes, and my question is this: if we do discover that we need to put a point or two into mana regen talents, where are those points best spent? Since Intensity is a percentage of your out of combat regen (which has been nerfed), is it now inferior to Dreamstate (which scales off Intellect), or does it still have the edge?

Cube · 03/23/09, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by princeinexile

Yes, and my question is this: if we do discover that we need to put a point or two into mana regen talents, where are those points best spent? Since Intensity is a percentage of your out of combat regen (which has been nerfed), is it now inferior to Dreamstate (which scales off Intellect), or does it still have the edge?

Intensity's overall effect has not changed, though. Oo5SR regen has been nerfed, but Intensity has been buffed to keep the same I5SR regen.

Videl · 03/23/09, 5:18 PM

Intensity is a larger % of your out of combat regen now than it was though (50% up from 30% for 3 points) and the net effect of intensity buff and spirit nerf is that intensity gives the same amount of in combat regen post 3.1 as it does now. The effects of the spirit change on balance druids are a nerf to innervate and loss of regen in fight lulls where you got out of the 5sr. In a straight stand and nuke for 5 minutes type situation Intensity is unchanged.

AmarthGurth · 03/23/09, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by alpiino

Conclusion: Druid set is utter crap compared to all other caster sets. They traded our dmg stats into spirit

remember that 15% of your spirit is gained as additional spell dmg from the Improved Moonkin Form talent

Raso · 03/24/09, 2:35 AM

Originally Posted by AmarthGurth

remember that 15% of your spirit is gained as additional spell dmg from the Improved Moonkin Form talent

Which is pretty pointless compared to what we are losing.

Prokaryote · 03/24/09, 2:57 AM

Its looking like a lot of caster gear is having spirit on it, more so than in naxx

Korhaug · 03/24/09, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by princeinexile

Yes, and my question is this: if we do discover that we need to put a point or two into mana regen talents, where are those points best spent? Since Intensity is a percentage of your out of combat regen (which has been nerfed), is it now inferior to Dreamstate (which scales off Intellect), or does it still have the edge?

Several people answered this, so I'll just clarify. OO5SR regen has been nerfed, and Intensity has been buffed to compensate. The net effect is that Intensity is worth the same in 3.1 as it is on live. Currently Intensity is as good or better then Dreamstate for most reasonable gear setups, and this will continue to be the case on patch day. Dreamstate may edge ahead later if your INT:SPI ratio rises (you get higher level gear without spirit), but this is not an immediate concern.

Originally Posted by AmarthGurth

remember that 15% of your spirit is gained as additional spell dmg from the Improved Moonkin Form talent

This is relatively a very small benefit. Remember that a point of spirit costs the same as a rating point (source). Level 80 epic caster gear is itemized with 5 stats, always in the form Stam+Int+Spell Power+X+X, where X can be hit/crit/haste/spirit/mp5 (no stat can repeat, obviously). This means that an item with 40 spirit could have had 40 haste rating or 40 crit rating instead.

0.15 SP is a much lower contribution to DPS then 1 crit or haste rating. This is why gear without spirit will give much higher dps. Spirit also contributes mana regen, but since most moonkins don't even take Intensity this is mostly wasted.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want a hugh difference in DPS between a caster who managed to avoid spirit and one who didn't. Considering that, I think the spirit to spell power conversion on IMF should be raised to 30%, similar to the warlock conversion, and that Eclipse be nerfed to compensate. This will both make spirit less painful (though still inferior to crit/haste rating) and reduce the RNG impact of Eclipse.

Fallenangel · 03/24/09, 8:52 AM

Not sure I follow Blizzard's logic. What GC posted can basically be boiled down to:
1. We know that gear with spirit is weaker than gear without it.
2. We don't make a lot of gear without spirit so if you have a set of it you're lucky
The immediate conclussion is "We tie your DPS to the loot RNG". Yes that's always the case to some extent, but that the exact problem bears faced with armor trinkets - have it and you're good, don't have it and you suck.

• Adoriele · 03/24/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Not sure I follow Blizzard's logic. What GC posted can basically be boiled down to:
1. We know that gear with spirit is weaker than gear without it.
2. We don't make a lot of gear without spirit so if you have a set of it you're lucky
The immediate conclussion is "We tie your DPS to the loot RNG". Yes that's always the case to some extent, but that the exact problem bears faced with armor trinkets - have it and you're good, don't have it and you suck.

Actually, he's since tried to explain that they're not going to be making much at all, especially not a full set, of no-spirit gear. Not even cloth. As a corollary, they're also trying to make it so that there is no glaring difference between the two. They want there to be a choice. A meaningful one. Right now, we have no choice as no-spirit gear is so much more powerful. If they buff spirit too much, there will be the opposite non-choice. They're still looking for the medium.

I do think our spirit-to-spellpower conversion needs to be bumped up to make the choice meaningful, but I'm not sure Eclipse is the right place to compensate.

Cube · 03/24/09, 11:46 AM

I'm not sure if T8 is going to be all that much of an upgrade, when doing a straight comparison of stats.

T7.25 has, in straight stats, not counting bonuses:
101 more crit
41 more haste
72 less spellpower
122 less spirit
53 less int
99 less hit(which is somewhat trivial at the moment, since several BIS non-set pieces have hit on them)

Assuming the following, totally arbitrary weights(from what I remember rawr saying a few months ago):
1.0 SP
.5 crit
.75 haste
.15 spirit
.13 int
0 hit(hitcapped through other pieces of gear, the sets don't change that)

T8.5 gives: 525+.5*135+.75*75+.15*216+.13*386=731 total points
T7.5 gives: 453+.5*233+.75*116+.15*94+.13*333=713 total points

18 point difference.

By comparison, at minimum, the next set(ele shaman) is 35 points higher. Spriest is 131 points ahead, mage 67, and warlock 86.

Does anyone else find this strange?

• Adoriele · 03/24/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cube

I'm not sure if T8 is going to be all that much of an upgrade, when doing a straight comparison of stats.

T7.25 has, in straight stats, not counting bonuses:
101 more crit
41 more haste
72 less spellpower
122 less spirit
53 less int
99 less hit(which is somewhat trivial at the moment, since several BIS non-set pieces have hit on them)

Assuming the following, totally arbitrary weights(from what I remember rawr saying a few months ago):
1.0 SP
.5 crit
.75 haste
.15 spirit
.13 int
0 hit(hitcapped through other pieces of gear, the sets don't change that)

T8.5 gives: 525+.5*135+.75*75+.15*216+.13*386=731 total points
T7.5 gives: 453+.5*233+.75*116+.15*94+.13*333=713 total points

18 point difference.

By comparison, at minimum, the next set(ele shaman) is 35 points higher. Spriest is 131 points ahead, mage 67, and warlock 86.

Does anyone else find this strange?

Uhhh, you can't just ignore the hit on the pieces. It's not like you're going to swap them in, and then ignore the fact that you're 100 hit over the cap. You'll instead swap out other pieces as well to make sure you're closer to the cap. So yes, given that Hit is about 1.8 SP, I see no problem with T8 being ~200 points.

thedopefishlives · 03/24/09, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Uhhh, you can't just ignore the hit on the pieces. It's not like you're going to swap them in, and then ignore the fact that you're 100 hit over the cap. You'll instead swap out other pieces as well to make sure you're closer to the cap. So yes, given that Hit is about 1.8 SP, I see no problem with T8 being ~200 points.

I might also add that the stat weights seem to have changed with all the new changes in 3.1. My latest numbers from Rawr are as follows, from a full BiS T7.5 set:

Spell Power 1.18 DPS
Haste 0.84 DPS
Crit 0.82 DPS
Int 0.46 DPS
Spi 0.185 DPS

Migrating from T7.5->T8.5 increases the value of haste over crit somewhat, but in general, haste and crit appear to be MUCH closer together in 3.1 than they are right now. Add that together with the delicious amount of hit on the T8 gear, and they are quite powerful in their own right.