rightclick

I would also agree with equiping SP+stam instead of SP+spirit, aswell as the propper leg enchant.

For me it would mean loosing a total of 44 spirit (aprox 13 SP) for 66 stamina, which seems to be worth it for higher survivability.

 

ninor

You can't really compare the health requirements on hard modes to normal modes. The raid damage is in a whole different ballpark, and Werebeef specifically mentioned that this advice was for hard modes. The raid damage from Freya with all 3 elders up is nothing short of insane. Haven't tried Mimiron hard mode, but that seems even worse. Even Thorim, which is arguably the easiest hard mode, has some hefty bursts at times.

Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?

 

• Arawethion

It's the hardmodes that need HP. [efb, page]

And yeah, I maintain two BiS lists personally, one with 239's and one without. With the hit cap so much in play, it's important to have a sense of which items are going to be most useful in the reasonably near future.

That said, I don't see the point of posting all these gear lists. It's purely a function of the current state of theorycraft and/or the poster's output from Rawr or something. Keep this thread about spec/glyphs/rotations, because anytime that stuff is decided, picking out gear is obvious.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Lemzix

So if OF proc off spells, I wonder if it would be worth finding 3 points to move into it for ulduar. Considering all the spell attacks that could proc it..

Flame Leviathan: N/A
Ignis: Flame Jets - Only cast about once every 40 seconds, so in a 4.5 min fight thats 7 times. 15% chance proc on 7 spells = probably not worth it.
Razorscale: Fireball, Chain Lightning, Wing Buffet - Only the fireballs aren't avoidable, and considering that they can hit any 1/25 people and the duration she actually spends in the air = probably not worth it.
XT: Gravity Bomb, Light Bomb, Tantrum - might be viable for this fight
Iron Council: largely variable depending on diffuculty... Death Rune, Chain Lightning, High Voltage, Lightning Whirl. Most of these are easy to avoid = probably not worth it.
Kologarn: Eyebeam, Shockwave, Stone Grip? By the time you get released from stone grip Of will be largely waisted. Possibly viable due to unavoidable shockwaves and badly run eyebeams?
Auriaya: Horifying Screech, Sonic Screech, Feral Spirit. Possibly viable, however the fear will cut into the 10seconds of OF uptime, and the feral spirits will lock out either nature or arcane for the duration aswell.
Hodir: Biting Cold, Freeze. Probably a great fight for OF due to the frequency of these 2 attacks, so long as they proc OF?
Freya: Sunbeam, Natures Fury, Conservators Grip, Detonating Lashers, Tidal Wave, Lightning Lash. Ground Tremor. Many sources of attacks being mostly unaviodable may make OF viable.
Thorim: Chain Lightning, Forked Lightning, Blizzard, Frostbolt Volley, Frost Nova. Most should be avoided, OF would be better on hard mode clearly though
Mimiron: Napalm Shell, Heat Wave, Rapid Burst. OF likely good on this fight since most attacks are unavoidable
General: Shadow Crash, Mark of the Faceless, Profound Darkness. Only profound darkness should hit you, and thats only for hard mode = probably not worth it
Yogg: My knowledge of this fight is too limited to comment.

My verdict: seems to be very situational, great sometimes, usless others. While imagining having a 10% dmg increase with eclipse and heroism up seems like a wet dream, the practicality leads me to say the 3 points could be better spent on a talent that gives more consistent benefits.

Thoughts?

 

• Arawethion

This is like the 10th Owlkin Frenzy post that lists every boss fight without doing even a basic bit of math to get any useful results out of it.

Let's say you want a DPS gain of 3% for 3 talent points (pretty typical rule of thumb for DPS talents). With a 10% buff, that means you need 30% uptime to be viable. With a 10 second duration, even ignoring overlaps, you'd need 3 procs every 100 seconds. At a 15% chance to proc, you need to be hit every 5 seconds for this to work. Pretty much no boss encounter has unavoidable things hitting you that frequently.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Beregon

Lots of talk about Solar vs Lunar recently, but the last time I saw someone suggest alternating spells and taking whatever Eclipse happens was way back at the beginning of WotLK.

Assumption: Right now, Rawr puts Lunar and Solar Eclipse for me within 3 DPS of eachother and although Lunar has a DPM edge it's not huge. So, this is for any case where neither has a clear advantage.

Method: During cooldown cast whichever nuke is slightly better for the situation, Starfire likely since it is better efficiency, extends Moonfire, and should be close to equal DPS. Between cooldowns alternate Wrath/Starfire until proc, then go with whichever you get.

Advantages: Less care needed to proc the correct Eclipse as we really don't care. No "wasted" cast of the wrong spell immediately after the cast before we can switch as we're always casting the correct one already.

Disadvantages: Doesn't make as full use of the +damage to SF/W Idols and not applicable where one Eclipse has a clear advantage.

So, does using this method make sense? Anyone else considering this or already doing it?

 

Poromu

I'm having a really tough time deciding on a few talent points after 3.1.2.

I used to put my leftover points from not getting intensity (in t7) into genesis, but i'm not entirely sure if that's a good decision anymore.

Comparitively;

Brambles - On our last Council kill my treants did 58,546 damage, 2.9% of my overall. 15% onto this with 3/3 is .435% damage increase, seems very weak. (This is not including Thorns)

Owlkin Frenzy - The same fight I got hit 52 times (Assuming green runes proc it since they don't actually "Hit"), assuming the 15% proc rate and assuming 0 overlap (which is sort've up-playing the talent). It would come to 7.8 procs, rounded to 8 for simplicity. 80 seconds of uptime agains't a 423 second fight. 19% uptime. Basically a 1.9% damage increase

Genesis - 11.9% of my damage on the same Iron Council kill came from Insect Swarm, 9% from Moonfire. The hits/crits on moonfire I think are low enough to just avoid for the sake of not doing any more math for such a small change in outcome. 3% of this comes out to a .627%

My math might be a little off from things like blue runes, having to aoe Summon Runes. (As to not get the full benefit from Genesis.) Also the Genesis should be slightly lower since I forgot to take off 1% DoT damage that I already had in the talent.

Also I think during the somewhat hectic of a Phase 3 trying to keep aoe spamming the Runes of Summoning I probably forgot to pop treants again, which would only double their potency to .87% for the 3 points, it pushes it ahead of Genesis but still behind Frenzy.

Now i'm looking for any of these talents over the very obvious larger dps increasing talents like IIS, CF, or MSS. This is merely just leftover points from my spec, point for point Owlkin Frenzy might be a good option for Ulduar. Iron Council I feel is a good fight for this kind of math because it's one of the least benefitting to Owlkin Frenzy.

Let me know if my math is off at all - I usually leave this sort of thing to the guru's.
Here is the WMO combatlog if anyone would like to review my numbers.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

 

• Arawethion

Genesis is actually even worse than it looks, since it stacks additively with Glyph of Insect Swarm and Glyph of Moonfire. It's closer to 0.1% DPS per point.

Brambles will actually be stronger that that based only on its effect on Treants. The damage provided by Thorns on even a single tank is larger than both of these effects; a quick back-of-the envelope calculation puts it at around 20 DPS per point per tank.

Owlkin Frenzy I just discussed in a post; it will add roughly (5/X)% DPS per point, where X is the mean number of seconds between proc-eligible hits. So if you take damage every 10 seconds, you can expect around 0.5% per point.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Poromu

I didn't know about the affecting glyphs part of genesis, that's really gimpy.

Yea, we were going for hard mode Hodir (killed with 1 sec on the clock v.v) and I noticed Owlkin Frenzy basically didn't proc much at all, I was 3/3 and I don't get hit by icicles which apparently is the only type of damage that procs it on that fight making it pretty worthless, Biting Cold is an aura and Frozen Blows i'm not sure about but didn't proc for me once for the 2 hours or so we spent on it.

Basically i'm set in stone on Brambles, while it looks like less on damage meters, the actual benefit exceeds that and i'm comfortable with that. Probably end up speccing back into regen though until 3.1.2.


Thanks for the feedback Hamlet.

 

Korhaug

This is very much a personal preference, but once you're comparing Brambles to Frenzy I'd recommend taking Typhoon and Gale Winds. Once you glyph the knockback out of it an extra instant spell is very handy in most fights, and the extra aoe capability shines in the admittedly few places you'd need it.

 

autrui

I got the 4t8 this week, and I've been trying to maximize it. I haven't heard about any incoming fix on the SF casting bug (SF cast eating the free SF). I've switched to solar eclipsing, and I'm using the wrath idol, because I'm basically trying to cast SF as little as possible. I'm now gearing away from haste, to get beneath the solar haste cap.

However, I'm wondering how much I'm gimping myself to make use of the added dps from the free starfires. I've read up on the math, and it always depends on a SF cast *not* eating the 4t8 proc, which it pretty much *always* will, if you're using a SF-based rotation (even if it's solar ecl with SF filler).

My question for everyone is this: Does the 4t8 SF casting bug *need* to get fixed for 4t8 to be a real benefit?

 

• Adoriele

What an idiotic question. Of course it does.

 

autrui

Adoriele, you've successfully extracted all actual content from my post and reduced it to the bare minimum: "do sumfin borked need fixx?/ YA STOOPID LOLO"

My question is: is the dps loss from using a wrath-based rotation, SF'ing only to proc a solar eclipse, greater than the dps gain of the 4t8 proc?

While the answer still may be the same (i.e. "Yes"), it's only an idiotic question if you don't actually read it. It may be a simple question, or, an easy one to answer for those who have a richer understanding of mathematical modeling, but neither of those constitute idiocy, and none of the above warrant insult. (Especially when the last few pages of this thread are useless repetition of ancient knowledge (yes, owlkin frenzy is situationally useful; yes, genesis is crap).)

 

UNKNOWNCRIPPLE

After searching EJ meticulously, in addition to searching all of the loot databases (Thott, Wowwiki, Wowhead), The Grasps of Reason, Treads of the False Oracle, and the Conductive Seal all show stats, but do not state where these items drop? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

autrui

Probably Algalon, but there won't be any confirmation until they actually start dropping.

 

amped

According to MMO-C, Treads of the False Oracle are from Yogg-Saron 25 Hard mode (1 or less watchers helping), The Grasps of Reason are from XT 25 Hard mode, and Conductive Seal is from Mimiron 25 Hard mode.

 

Poromu

You don't really need to be a theory crafter to understand that if the proc gets eaten without the benefit then it's a useless bonus. 5% procrate just amplifies that way of thinking, even 15% probably won't make up for it. Especially since a lot of fights have haste mechanics or bloodlust/heroism included when SF will be your primary spell.

The only fight it comes to mind as perhaps shining 4pct8 is P2 of Yogg-Saron where -sometimes- I have 5-6 Insect Swarms ticking and there is a lot of movement between Crusher Tentacles.

The term you used Ancient Knowledge is exactly right, just because things didn't add up in Naxx/Maly/Sarth doesn't really mean they will be useless in Ulduar. I plan on going thru some WMO reports to see how often I get hit with something to see the usefulness and which fight OF might shine in. Just because it's been looked thru once doesn't mean that will remain a consistent forever. Remember when Eclipse first came out?

 

Bolverick

Ok I've been working my way through this forum trying to find information that I can use. The problem I have is this. I try to use the info here and then get people telling me I'm doing things either right but need to improve or horribly wrong. It's to the point that I sometimes don't want to even start wow. Can someone please help me figure out a proper rotation based on my spec and gear? or perhaps in simple terms tell me where to adjust things to bring my dps in line with ulduarr or naxx 25? Below is a link to my wow armory listing.
The World of Warcraft Armory

 

• Arawethion

Until the TTT article is up (which is in the early stages), there isn't a great place to learn from scratch. I think I'll try to put up a temporary "Moonkin for Dummies" tonight or tomorrow which will at least contain the basic info updated for 3.1.1.

Your spec/gear has a few significant errors (no Glyph of Insect Swarm, Dreamstate, Int/MP5 gems). But your DPS is truly deficient, it's likely a problem with your rotation.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Bolverick

I start off my rotation with IFF > IS MF Starfire till wrath proc then wrath then recast is and mf and start on starfall again.

as for glyphs should I remove the innervate one and replace it with insect swarm?
I'm not sure what you think I should do with Dreamstate. should I get rid of it and put the points elsewhere? Which Gems do you recommend replacing and with what??

Note: in the earlier post I didnt have my t7 helm on.

Testing it on the target dummies I seem to be hitting roughly 2600 and change dps

 

Poromu

Pretty much all gemming should be straight spell power gems, except your meta requirement.

You have 3 points into each of the 3 regen talents, that is entirely too many wasted points, I would start by dropping Dreamstate and putting those points into Imp Insect Swarm. If you still find yourself not having mana problems, drop 2 points from Moonglow for Imp Moonfire.

I would also update your enchants to top dps enchants, things like Vitality never belong on a caster dps' boots, it's pretty universal that you should get Icewalker. Some get the speed/stam enchant, but that's a matter of flavor. 10 stats to Chest is a minor increase, 63 spell power to weapon is a decent increase. Getting the spell power/spirit leg enchant will yeild more dps than the stam one, but it's pretty minimal.

Yes dropping either Innervate or Starfire for Insect Swarm glyph will yeild a pretty hefty dps increase.

Edit: Looking at your first post you said you read the threads in this forum, all of this is pretty well covered.

 

Bolverick

I have. but it's late and I'm frustrated with my failure to do the dps I want to.

 

timmytomma

with your stats a lunar rotation is pretty much the only option...your crit chance is too low for wrath to be viable and your haste is about 110 or so over give or take. Go with a IFF->IS->MF->wrath until eclipse->starfire until eclipse is gone->reapply dots and starfire down the eclipse GCD and repeat. Also, the 2 blue gems you should use are purified twilight opals (9sp 8spirit) and you should NEVER gem for intellect. Unless you need hit or you have to make a meta requirement, you should probably gem for straight spellpower, especially in your belt socket like that. Your enchants are also not right. First off, get the sp/crit rating shoulder enchant...moonkins dont need mp5...idk where you got that idea. 63 sp to your weapon would be a decent increase, and you should get a different boot enchant. You should not be enchanting/gemming for mp5 (just to reiterate). Go with +12hit and +12 crit or tuskars vitality. With that you should increase your dps by quite a bit. Hope this helps.

 

Bolverick

The main reason for the 16 int gem is to boost my mana so I dont have to go through mana as fast. The mp5 thing is a holdover fromw hen I was always oom ing. going to try to work away from those and see how my mana regen is.

 

Moonwhisper

Bolverick,
looking on your talents. You also should consider to reduce your mana regen talents.
If you have currently no mana problems reduce in the first step your TPs in Moonglow to 1/3 and check if this is working for you. Consider in the next step to reduce Intensity to 2/3 or 1/3 and check if you are still ok.
For raiders with full raid buffs this should be in general of no big problem.
If you have problems, just go back and put stepwise more TPs in Intensity, till you are happy.

Options for free TP to increase dps:
Gale Wind 2/2 --> it will significantly increase your aoe output.
Imp MF 2/2. (just a general minor increase)
Typhoon 1/1. (situational...consider also to use the glyph)

one further hint:
Damage UP time (minimum movement, keep DoTs rolling,etc) is the biggest factor to optimize DPS.

and one more:
Your total dps is not important if you contribute optimal to raid success by resurrecting key persons, buffing the raid during fight and doing damage at the right time.