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Old 04/02/09, 1:24 PM   #811
dukes
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by AlinaSedai View Post
I personally do not take Gale Winds. I am just curious as to why so many people take it? How does it improve your dps vrs bosses? It doesn't. I like my spec as it is now, we always have a shadow priest in the raid so np with the hit, and we always have a feral druid so i save a GCD with the impff but i keep it anyways incase the sp dies.
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I took spirit on chest over stats too. for the Mp5 bonus and the spell power bonus. 15 spirit is better then 8 stats for this reason imho.

I also see a lot of druids stacking haste. LOTS of haste. to the extent that they neglect their crit. I see druids full valor walking around.. 600 haste (no joke) and 14% crit. Do you think that 600 haste is worth such a low crit raiting?
Ugh, what the hell is this post?

Gale Winds increases your overall DPS in an instance by a significant amount due to the majority of instance clear times being on trash. With the current state of the raid game it's clearing instances quickly that is the main point as all bosses are on farm for a lot of people. I'd much rather take 30% more AoE damage than 2% more damage on a single target.

8 stats on chest is superior to 15 spirit due to more survivability (8 stam), more base mana pool (8 int), and more regen (8 int + 8 spirit is far greater regen due to replenishment, JoW, and normal regen). Int also provides almost as much spell power benefit as spirit (12% compared to 15%). You gain 1.16 spell power from 8 int when buffed, 1.32 spell power from 8 spirit, and 2.475 spell power from 15 spirit. The difference is negligible.

Haste is better than crit in a raid environment due to the large number of crit modifiers on spell from talents, buffs and debuffs. Having 14% crit rating on the character sheet gives you a starfire crit rate of approximately 45% on starfire while not during eclipse. This point has been brought up 2 or 3 times in this forum, you may want to check some of the posts previously made on this topic because there's been some pretty good calcs done on the subject and haste has been shown to be better from gear at the current time.

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Old 04/02/09, 1:28 PM   #812
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by dukes View Post
Haste is better than crit in a raid environment due to the large number of crit modifiers on spell from talents, buffs and debuffs. Having 14% crit rating on the character sheet gives you a starfire crit rate of approximately 45% on starfire while not during eclipse. This point has been brought up 2 or 3 times in this forum, you may want to check some of the posts previously made on this topic because there's been some pretty good calcs done on the subject and haste has been shown to be better from gear at the current time.
I'd also like to point out that the highest parse I've seen on Patch also had the highest haste rating I've seen someone gather up. Just sayin'.

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Old 04/02/09, 1:35 PM   #813
fyren
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Is it very serious to not be exactly hit capped ?

I mean I have 261 hit points, must I increase it to 263 ?

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Old 04/02/09, 1:41 PM   #814
Cdin
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Originally Posted by AlinaSedai View Post
I personally do not take Gale Winds. I am just curious as to why so many people take it? How does it improve your dps vrs bosses? It doesn't. I like my spec as it is now, we always have a shadow priest in the raid so np with the hit, and we always have a feral druid so i save a GCD with the impff but i keep it anyways incase the sp dies.
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I took spirit on chest over stats too. for the Mp5 bonus and the spell power bonus. 15 spirit is better then 8 stats for this reason imho.

I also see a lot of druids stacking haste. LOTS of haste. to the extent that they neglect their crit. I see druids full valor walking around.. 600 haste (no joke) and 14% crit. Do you think that 600 haste is worth such a low crit raiting?
1. Most well geared moonkin don't even get close to running out of mana, therefore the Mana regen talents are almost completely wasted, and dropping intensity or Moonglow has no impact on there DPS. Since you have to spend these points some where, Gale Winds is an option. Yes, most bosses don't require much AoE, But it is nice to have in some situations and if it doesn't cost you anything you might as pick it up.

2. You may be happy with your spec but it has a problem. Your skipping Improved Insect Swarm and putting 1 point in Moonglow, 1 point in Typhoon, and 1 point in Starfall. Its a little ironic that you talk about GW being bad but then pick up two AoE spells. And putting a second point in in Moonglow isn't smart. If you need the mana then the point should be in Dreamstate. If you don't need the mana then why is it in moonglow? There are several better options.

3. Haste > Crit currently on Live. I gap will narrow a little when 3.1 comes out but haste is still a little better for DPS. Plus, 14% crit roughly translates into +40% fully raid buffed. That is perfectly fine for procing eclipse and such.

www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

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Old 04/02/09, 1:43 PM   #815
 Adoriele
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Originally Posted by fyren View Post
Is it very serious to not be exactly hit capped ?

I mean I have 261 hit points, must I increase it to 263 ?
Not a huge issue. You're almost never going to hit it exactly, so you'll have to make do with up to 8 either above or below. Within that range, you can make cases for being on either side of the cap (above the cap means a lot for utility, as you'll never miss that one important spellcast, but may not be the best allocation of stats). Being 2 under almost guarantees that you should stay below, since you'd be trading 10 spellpower for 2 hit. It's just not worth it. You're looking at 6/10,000 casts missing.

[edit]
Originally Posted by Cdin View Post
2. You may be happy with your spec but it has a problem. Your skipping Improved Insect Swarm and putting 1 point in Moonglow, 1 point in Typhoon, and 1 point in Starfall. Its a little ironic that you talk about GW being bad but then pick up two AoE spells. And putting a second point in in Moonglow isn't smart. If you need the mana then the point should be in Dreamstate. If you don't need the mana then why is it in moonglow? There are several better options.
Um, Starfall is far from an AoE spell. It's better DPET than the rest of our spells even single-target. Typhoon you have a point, but I always preach the utility aspect of it. 1% crit on SF (and 1% damage on Wrath) won't make or break a raid. Typhoon can. It's also damn fun, and good for soloing. Also, a point in Dreamstate is never the right choice. Moonglow is the only sub-optimal mana regen talent that's allowable, and only a single point because it gets us into the third tier. After that, OoC > Intensity > Dreamstate. There's never a case where you can put a point into dreamstate but not Intensity, unless Intensity is maxed out. And if you have Intensity and still have mana issue, you're doing it wrong.

Last edited by Adoriele : 04/02/09 at 1:52 PM.

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Old 04/02/09, 3:56 PM   #816
Mideci
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Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Also, a point in Dreamstate is never the right choice. Moonglow is the only sub-optimal mana regen talent that's allowable, and only a single point because it gets us into the third tier. After that, OoC > Intensity > Dreamstate. There's never a case where you can put a point into dreamstate but not Intensity, unless Intensity is maxed out. And if you have Intensity and still have mana issue, you're doing it wrong.
I think the reason the 1 point in Dreamstate is popular is this:

"In some specific gear cases Dreamstate (Atleast the first 4% point) might outshine Intensity."

From the Moonkin Guide for Dummies on this very forum. If that's flat out wrong, perhaps it's worth an edit.

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Old 04/02/09, 4:13 PM   #817
Eldessya
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Night Elf Druid
 
Whisperwind
the first point is usually very close in value to intensity, especially since spirit is a stat to avoid like the plague when itemizing, and it gives out of combat regen, which is nice, so it's defensable. once 3.1 hits with it's promised "better itemzied gear" ( they did say that ;> ) and we're covered in spirit no matter how hard we try not to be, it'll probably be so much better than dreamstate that there isn't a debate.

Last edited by Eldessya : 04/02/09 at 4:15 PM. Reason: typos

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Old 04/02/09, 4:39 PM   #818
Cdin
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Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Um, Starfall is far from an AoE spell. It's better DPET than the rest of our spells even single-target.
Just because Starfall is not a standard AoE spell and is decent against a single target doesn't mean its not an AoE. 1. Its a dumb spell thats not targeted on a single mob. 2. It affect mobs within a specific area. 3. Much more affective against multiple targets then a single target. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, its a duck. Its just not a traditional duck.

I'm not saying its a bad spell. I have it and use it regularly, but I wouldn't be surprised if its current live form isn't close to Imp IS in relative value. I haven't run the numbers though so I could be very wrong.

Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Typhoon you have a point, but I always preach the utility aspect of it. 1% crit on SF (and 1% damage on Wrath) won't make or break a raid. Typhoon can. It's also damn fun, and good for soloing.
I agree that 1% of crit or damage isn't going to make or break a raid, but your raid has serious problems if Typhoon does. On top of that I bet those situations are extremely rare.

About Typhoon being fun, players should go with what ever floats their boat, but the same arguement could be made for Gale Winds as the OP was questioning.

Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Also, a point in Dreamstate is never the right choice. Moonglow is the only sub-optimal mana regen talent that's allowable, and only a single point because it gets us into the third tier. After that, OoC > Intensity > Dreamstate. There's never a case where you can put a point into dreamstate but not Intensity, unless Intensity is maxed out. And if you have Intensity and still have mana issue, you're doing it wrong.
Again my arguement was based upon his current spec. I completely agree that he shouldn't have any mana problems at his level of gear and progression (which makes the lack of Imp IS even stranger). However, for what ever reason he has OOC, 3/3 Intensity, 0/3 Dreamstate and 2/3 Moonglow with 2/2 in Imp MF. I think you would agree that the only time you should ever have more then 1 point in MG is if you don't max out Imp MF. So, if for some odd reason he does want the mana regen then the point should be in Dreamstate not Moonglow.

www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

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Old 04/02/09, 4:50 PM   #819
Feathorne
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Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
I'd also like to point out that the highest parse I've seen on Patch also had the highest haste rating I've seen someone gather up. Just sayin'.
I also want to point out that there is another correlation with the parses i see. The faster the boss seems to die, the higher DPS you get. I have noticed that my DPS drops after the longer the fight. My patchwerk fights are not my best DPS due to the fact that the other classes are not putting out as much DPS as they should. The Nature of relying on the RNG with eclipse means the longer you go at a boss the more likely you are going to get unlucky and get a streak of wraths without a crit and drop in DPS. I sometimes pop a Speed pot if I feel an unlucky streak coming, maybe after the 5th wrath with no crit. This doesn't always work, but gets me out of the hole quicker.

Last edited by Feathorne : 04/02/09 at 11:23 PM.

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Old 04/02/09, 10:47 PM   #820
Ebonwood
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
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Okay, so, I've been reading some of the threads here, and I'm having a hard time keeping track of all this info.

Basically, I have a question about my dps rotation. My dps seems a little low, it could be because of my 3 week non-raiding time, but, i don't want to just write it off as that.

My rotation is pretty simple, IS > MF > Wrath until eclipse > Starfire until just before eclipse CD > repeat.

Any suggestions? The World of Warcraft Armory
There's my armory link to check my spec and gear and all that. I'm just short a few pieces for BiS. To anyone that has suggestions, Thanks a million, i appreciate it.

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Old 04/03/09, 3:16 AM   #821
Feathorne
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Ebonwood View Post
Okay, so, I've been reading some of the threads here, and I'm having a hard time keeping track of all this info.

Basically, I have a question about my dps rotation. My dps seems a little low, it could be because of my 3 week non-raiding time, but, i don't want to just write it off as that.

My rotation is pretty simple, IS > MF > Wrath until eclipse > Starfire until just before eclipse CD > repeat.

Any suggestions? The World of Warcraft Armory
There's my armory link to check my spec and gear and all that. I'm just short a few pieces for BiS. To anyone that has suggestions, Thanks a million, i appreciate it.
Basically you spec is right, though I would drop improved mark and typhoon for Celestial Focus. You should be shooting for over 500 haste, so you can reduce your crit some to itemize for that. The biggest advice I have is drop the gathering professions, thats why Blizz gave you alts. You need JC/LW or BS to Min/Max your toon for the best possible DPS. Also make sure you time your Treants right before a heroism. There are some questionable gem choices, such as +8 crit and +10 Spell Penetration gem, this has no use in PVE and you should never gem for Crit. You cloak should have a +28 Haste enchant and not the spell penetration one. You pants should have the +50 SP and +20 Spirit enchant since you have no mana regen talents. I would read the information about gemming your boomkin in these forums. You should not be using spell penetration and crit gems. Since you are hit capped, you should only need Spell Power or haste if your haste low, but spell power has the most DPS gain over any stat, once you break a certain haste point, then it is a 1 to 1 (roughly) ratio for haste to crit. Again, I don't know the exact math, but it is all in the forums here. These are my simple thoughts at such a late hour.

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Old 04/03/09, 3:26 AM   #822
Celdhyrean
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Night Elf Druid
 
Archimonde (EU)
If you don't tell us what "low" means, we will hardly be able to say much appart from generic advice.
- gems :
blue - sp/spi
yellow - hit (shouldn't be required), sp/hit, or sp/haste.
The green gems you are using are mostly useless.

- hit : if you often have a dranei with you then you're far over the hit cap
- enchants : i'd take the sp/spi rather than the sp/sta for legs though, and the weapon is good enough that you should have put the +63sp on it. Haste on cloack too.
- gear : your spellpower seems very low to me. You have some BiS but there are some very easy upgrades for a few slots : Band of channeled magic, any of the Malygos kill quest necks (or the chain of Latent Energies), Embrace of the Spider
- talents : CF is more dps than iIS. Either switch some of the "options" to CF (gale winds, typhoon, starfall) or switch iIS to CF. Are the points in Moonglow really usefull to you ? That'd free some points up to mostly refill iIS too.

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Old 04/03/09, 1:22 PM   #823
Neura
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Night Elf Druid
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Feathorne View Post
I also want to point out that there is another correlation with the parses i see. The faster the boss seems to die, the higher DPS you get. I have noticed that my DPS drops after the longer the fight. My patchwerk fights are not my best DPS due to the fact that the other classes are not putting out as much DPS as they should. The Nature of relying on the RNG with eclipse means the longer you go at a boss the more likely you are going to get unlucky and get a streak of wraths without a crit and drop in DPS. I sometimes pop a Speed pot if I feel an unlucky streak coming, maybe after the 5th wrath with no crit. This doesn't always work, but gets me out of the hole quicker.
Yes, the longer the fight, the lower your DPS is going to get. On Patchwerk specifically, you start out with burst early on (bloodlust/heroism/trinkets/whatever) and then your sustained DPS will bring the avg down the longer the fight lasts.

Saying that the longer the fight lasts, the more likely you are to get an unlucky streak is the same as saying the longer the fight goes on, the more likely you are to get a lucky streak. It doesn't actually make sense. Random is random. Either is just as likely to happen. Well, I guess that's not completely true. You'd probably see yourself getting an unlucky streak most of the time, unless your crit chance is greater than 50%.

Simply put, there are two ways to look at it. If you've not crit 20 times in a row, you may think your next cast is more likely to crit. In reality, the 21st cast still has the same chance to crit that all other 20 casts did. Streaks are a view of a set of events, but entirely useless data when trying to predict the next random number. Flip a coin 10 times in a row and that 11th flip still has a 50/50 chance at either heads or tails.

If you want to go deeper into that hole, think about how the server has to generate the random numbers. Even if they're pseudo-random and there's an algorithm being used to limit streakiness, you're not the only person they're being generated for. If the generator had what you consider to be a streak, you wouldn't even see it, since the n other people that needed a random number for their cast or swing or whatever, would get one before your next cast. The next number you get is determined by how many requests there were in between.

I also have a hard time believing that the fault is factually (as you state) that of the other players in your raid, since you have your one potion for that fight still available and sometimes use it for a speed boost. If you were attempting your best DPS as you expect others to do, you would have used a Potion of Wild Magic during Heroism/Bloodlust.

As a note: Potion of Wild Magic is not only a much higher DPS potion than Speed for a Moonkin, but it also gives a higher chance at that Eclipse proc you're looking for, since it ups your crit by a lot, instead of just putting your lower crit chance casts closer together.

*prepares to get yelled at for being a jerk this early in the morning*

Last edited by Neura : 04/03/09 at 1:30 PM.

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Old 04/03/09, 1:45 PM   #824
dukes
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Dukes
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Originally Posted by Neura View Post
As a note: Potion of Wild Magic is not only a much higher DPS potion than Speed for a Moonkin, but it also gives a higher chance at that Eclipse proc you're looking for, since it ups your crit by a lot, instead of just putting your lower crit chance casts closer together.
Any chance you have the maths behind that statement?

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Old 04/03/09, 2:31 PM   #825
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Baelgun
Originally Posted by Neura View Post
As a note: Potion of Wild Magic is not only a much higher DPS potion than Speed for a Moonkin, but it also gives a higher chance at that Eclipse proc you're looking for, since it ups your crit by a lot, instead of just putting your lower crit chance casts closer together.
Potion of Wild Magic: 200 crit rating, 200 spell power. Spell power is worth roughly 1.1 DPS at T7.5 gear levels, crit is worth ~0.7 DPS. We'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say 0.75 DPS per point of crit rating. Wild Magic comes out at 370 DPS.

Potion of Speed: 500 haste rating. Haste is worth ~0.8 DPS at T7.5 gear levels. That's a 400 DPS increase. Advantage: Speed. Quite ignoring the fact that increasing your haste by that much will have much the same effect, or possibly even more, on your Eclipse proc time as upping your crit by less than half as much.

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