This is the basic way that people estimated the issue of DoT refreshing during Eclipse orginally. But it doesn't take into account the dangling portion of the Moonfire, which is reasonably significant. Here are some earlier posts where I try to address the issue:
Moonkin Raiding
Balance Glyphs

For the modeling I'm doing currently in the WrathCalcs framework, the goal is to model whole rotations anyway. I implemented an "always refresh" rotation by simply deducting a certain percentage of casting time from each phase of the cycle proportionally, but I'm not sure how to extend this idea to estimate DoT uptime under a "refresh except during the final X seconds of Eclipse" rule.

I know my guild typically has people oriented one marked person and healers spread out around the ranged so they don't eat up storm cloud buffs. That way we also don't have to move far to get ourselves a Storm Power buff. It's all mostly about minimizing movement time. Definitely should try your best getting the Lunar Eclipse buff too, especially when you get Storm Power (pop CDs too and stuff and also hope Starfall's up also).

Trying to proc eclipse is wrong I mean of course if you manage to get luner eclipse and all the buffs your dps will be great but that's so rare. Each time I tried to get eclipse proc my dps was horrible.

What I do is put on my crit gear (mostly T7) and prioritize standing in the fire. I move to the light only if it's in range of the fire. Stormcloud is pure luck - yesterday I got the buff 4 times and pulled off +12k dps with pure SF spamming and ignoring eclipse. The only time I "try" to proc eclipse is while breaking the ice blocks on the npcs with wrath.

not sure on this fight what to do and what not to do. Did some mechanic get changed in a stealth nerf I am not aware of? Last week I did 11.3k dps on Hodir. Had around a 9.5k-10k avg. This week I had a few attempts between 5-7k, putting me dead last, and none over 10k. maybe a 7.5k-8k avg for the night. Going for a lunar rotation on this fight, but its so so.

BTW, if they up the IS proc chance on our tier set again, there will be a lot of PvP qqing. Might be already. We might suck at pvp, but in 5s boomkin WILL pull off some instagibs with rolling 3-5 IS, which will fall under blizzards problem of "burst pvp dmg".

In the long run, I could see them just pulling this set bonus if it gives them much more difficulty.

PS-bit of an off-topic: trinkets, how would the scale of fates, eye of the brood mother rank vs the old illustration? On most fights I am having it calculate as Illustration>scale>eye, though the proc effect on the scale is excellent for a lunar rotation eclipse. For solar I am getting the eye pull ahead of scale in most fights, and illustration in a couple.

Dps on Hodir is pure luck. When we were learning the fight my dps was jumping between 5k (when I was unlucky with buffs) to 11k.

Well, they prolly won't up the chance more then the 15% the already have, and even then, in 5's, how fast will a moonkin with prolly 250 less resilience then "normal" get focused and die?


I don't really think that will be much of a problem

Just run close to the person with Storm Cloud buff for storm power. It is by far the highest damage increase you can get as moonkin on Hodir and getting it doesn't really require much luck at all.
Ignoring eclipse on Hodir is also really bad advice, due to what storm power does getting a lunar eclipse proc should be your highest priority. Storm power lasts long enough that you can get a full eclipse off even if you get slighly unlucky with your wraths.
Basically, stand next to a fire until someone gets Storm Cloud, go pick up your Storm Power and run into a lightbeam, get a lunar eclipse proc and laugh maniacally as big numbers come up on your screen.

We tank him along the right wall and ranged spread out, people who're marked with the Storm Cloud buff run around like retards passing it out to the casters (melee keep it in melee and the first Storm Cloud buffed person always runs it to the tank.) I try to get my normal rotation out of things - but when I have the crit damage bonus buff and i'm in a moonbeam I stop trying to eclipse and just spam starfire, the 1.3s Starfires making up for the crit percent loss from not trying to proc it. Especially during heroism when it's 1s SF's.

I know one of our hunters (Survival) has assigned himself to a fire so I don't worry about that debuff so much as the not having to move part. All ranged break NPC's out after Flash Freeze. Although i'd like to see our tank move the boss a bit towards some of the npc's to help on that with melee - but that's a different discussion.

Yes, frequent interruptions of movement seem to make it like if I spent too much time trying to proc eclipse I would likely miss most of the window to actually utilize the buffs.

Whenever i'm moving in and out of a beam/fire (Icicle's for instance, or Flash Freeze) I make sure to refresh dots, reguardless on how much time is left on them and maybe get a wrath off if I have a second.

I also made a point to only Starfall after Flash Freeze and i'm actually considering glyphing it so it's up every flash freeze as opposed to every other.



I actual got a good run on vezax only using one vapor (only a five stack which to be honest, I probably didn't need.) Recount said 10kdps but actual dps listed on WMO was 7k(10k), I basically spammed SF in crashes and did nothing else occasionally poping starfall on the way out of the crash (depending on vapor positioning relative to my own) and the occasional IS.



This week i'm gonna try for none in preparation for hard mode attempts. Although it's been frustrating with server lag to do anything in Ulduar hard mode. Our first try on XT hard mode consisted of heroism on the first heart and getting it to 40% because of 10second starfires. v.v



Sorry for the multi-thought posts, just had time to reflect on the night a bit. Also i'm curious about the 4pct8, if they straighten the proc up and lower its rate back down to 5%, how much dps are we talking here? I know this math has been done I just can't seem to find the post for it.



The Storm Cloud buff doesn't buff the player it's cast on. Only the people who get the buff Storm Power get the crit bonus - so basically the person with Storm Cloud should be running around passing the buff off as opposed to 10 people losing dps time moving to them. We basically stayed true to this, except if our Holy Paladin got it due to that he was healing the MT.

Thanks for the information!

It seems it's the difference between accurately computing a whole cycle and returning the numbers for "what's best, right now" where eclipse is treated as its own little bubble.

I'll shut up now, you're far ahead of any useful suggestions I could make. :-)

Well, at our first tries I really tried to get lunar eclipse. I managed to get it timed with the buffs 1 time per whole night of tries. And even then I did less total dps because it happened only once per fight than when I simply spam SF like mad and just run after buffs. RNG of those buffs plus RNG of eclipse is really a tricky combo.

I mean sure, it's cool to get 1st best world report with good eclipse timing but because it's so uncontrollable, trying to proc eclipse and being unluky is worse than just ignoring it. Since we did so far only 2 kills (2nd for some strange reason was a 1 shot xD ) I do prefer safe approach of stable good dps rather than trying to win meters and do badly cause I didn't have enough luck. Maybe, when we get to the point when we have more space for errors I will focus on winning the meters ^^

Storm Power lasts 30sec, let's say you spend 5 seconds on moving to get to a lightbeam after getting stormpower(yes, while it is technically true that the one with storm cloud should be spreading it, it is still a net dps gain to worry about it yourself a bit as well).
That leaves you with 10sec in which to proc eclipse to get full benefit of eclipse. Assuming a 30% critrate for wrath and a 1sec casttime in a lightbeam(so 9 wraths in 10sec when corrected for latency), you have a 1-((1-(0.3*0.6))^9) = 84% chance to get an eclipse proc in those 10 seconds, so 84% chance to get full benefit of eclipse. 15 wrath casts make that go to 95%, which is basically if you didn't move after getting stormpower.

Now let's compare overall damage done in the 30sec with storm power in a lightbeam.

15sec of wrath+15 sec of eclipsed starfires, which is basically worst case scenario and usually you should do better than that.
14 wrath casts with 30% critrate and 11 starfire casts(1.35 cast speed, which seems reasonable) with 75% critrate(assuming 2p t8 bonus).
Storm power increases critical strike damage by 135% so crit multiplier becomes 3.45(including metagem which stacked multiplicatively iirc).
Opened a random wws for average wrath and starfire damage, average wrath seems to be 3500 and starfire 6000 noncrit.
So, with eclipse damage:
14*(1-0.3)*3500 + 14*0.3*3500*3.45 + 11*(1-0.75)*6000 + 11*0.75*6000*3.45 = 272 290

Without trying to proc eclipse:
22 starfire casts with 30% critrate:
22*(1-0.3)*6000 + 22*0.3*6000*3.45 = 229 020

Which makes it a 16% damage increase to use eclipse in pretty much a worst case scenario, on average the gains should be much higher(average number of wrath casts required to proc eclipse under these assumptions should be 6, not 14).

Edit: Just realized that my crit multiplier is probably completely wrong, since 6000*3.45*1.6(singed debuff) gives numbers which are much lower than what my starfires on Hodir actually crit for. Could someone clarify how exactly the storm power is calculated?

There's a couple things you're not factoring in, generally moonbeams have a few people in them and icicles like to spawn there causing movement penalties.

You're also saying 30% crit which in reality should be much higher. I have 24% with mark/ai/kings, with ISB5%/ToW3%/IIS3%/IFF3%/Nature's Majesty4% it's more like 42% for an average Moonkin.

Also you're assuming Eclipse is off cd, which given the random nature of getting the buff is a maybe 20-40% chance it will be off cooldown, however I have gotten the buff right after proccing eclipse and i'm not denying the benefit. Also moonbeams sometimes run out too.

I'm not saying your math is completely wrong, it's just not really taking the encounter practically and much like Solar Eclipse it looks a lot better on paper.

There are a few times in Ulduar where we have 3 targets to dps (Mimiron, Freya, and to a lesser degree Yogg-Saron), and I have been trying to optimize overall dps in these situations. I was hoping for some feedback in case some of you may have already figured out the best way to do this.

These are my Damager per Execution Time calculations based on WrathCalcs and current gear setup, using IS, Starfire, and MF glyphs:

Wrath: 4310,25

Wrath under Eclipse: 6249,86

Wrath under Insect Swarm: 4396,45

Wrath under Eclipse, Insect Swarm: 6374,85

Starfire: 4762,93

Starfire under Eclipse: 6734,28

Starfire under Moonfire: 4853,33

Starfire under Eclipse, Moonfire: 6815,17

Moonfire: 6112,78

Moonfire, 3 Starfire casts: 9538,82

Insect Swarm: 8110,24

I generally start with IS on each target, then MF on each target, then Starfire each target, rotating through to try to fully extend the Moonfire for each. Once the MF has been fully extended on all 3 targets, I begin the cycle again, and the MF's have fallen off by the time the 3 IS's are reapplied. Do you know a better way to optimize dps on multiple targets?

To estimate the DPET of casting a starfire specifically to extend the MF dot, I'm just using ((9538.82-6112.78)/3)+4762.93=5904.94

Maybe I am making this too complicated and should just be speccing Gale Winds and using Hurricane more often.

I think your best bet is to only tab-DoT while moving.

I don't know about other moonkins but Mimiron/Freya there are melee/ranged assignments for distinct reasons. For Yogg the Tentacle priority (Crushers>Constrictors>Corrupters) dictates what you should be killing while standing still.

I basically spam IS on anything that moves while i'm moving though. I was thinking about using 4pc on Yogg this week just to play with it and all the movement seems like it might shine.

Ok I just want to ask a question. Even with the bonus not fixed is there any reason to wear the 4 t8 over offset items. If so, does it only pertain to solar rotations? Would using a solar rotation with the 4p bonus provided you had enough crit and such be better than say running a lunar with better (and more lunar itemized) offset pieces? Thanks in advance

My guild has been farming Hodir on Hard Mode for the past 3 weeks (still haven't gotten the achievement though for some reason), and there are several things we found that greatly increase the raids' DPS.

First and foremost we have everyone in our raid enable Projected Textures in their Video -> Effects options, this allows the normal icicles dropping from snowflakes to display a blizzard rune circle on the ground covering the affected area. To maximize DPS we just step outside of the circle a couple seconds after it appears and wait for the icicle to fall then move back into the Moonbeam, obviously preferring Moonbeams near a Fire.

For tanking position, we have our tank have his back against the cache to the left when you enter the room, putting Hodir in the corner. This forces the NPCs to be closer to him and the Moonbeams and Fires are all spawned in a crescent within 20 yards of Hodir. Players are all closer together within the crescent, allowing less movement with Stormclouds and Flash Freezes. With Stormclouds we force that one player (who is marked with a skull from DBM) to spread it to as many DPS as he can, the first Stormcloud attempting to get it to the tank to minimize threat issues. Having one person moving to spread it is better than the entire raid moving to him, in terms of DPS. Obviously everyone focuses on Flash Freezes to break out NPCs when they're trapped as priority over the boss.

So far with this setup we've killed him in an average of 2 mins 35 seconds, this week being 2 mins 55 because our mages forgot that our locks don't provide 5% crit with their fire-destro build, and didn't apply scorch. Last night we brought a caster-stacked group for 10 man and killed him in 1 min 38 seconds

As far as what I do for the fight myself, I have a crit set pushing 800 crit rating with only sacrificing a minimal amount of Spellpower and a lot of Haste. Since most of your DPS is going to be during Moonbeams and when you have the crit buff, stacking Crit to get a Lunar Eclipse ASAP with it will yield more than stacking haste like our usual setup and almost pushing the GCD cap with Starfire. Movement-wise you obviously want to minimize it as much as possible to maximize your DPS, I only apply my DoTs when I do have to move. I typically push around 13k DPS, 15k being my best on kill.

Just some helpful tips to maximize you and your raids' DPS :]

Eclipse increases Wrath damage by x%. Is this bonus calculated at the beginning of the cast, end of the cast or at the impact? I wonder when I should switch back to Starfire in my rotation.

The damage from Solar Eclipsed Wrath is calculated at the end of the cast.

is there a formula to calculate how much dps the 2 piece t7 bonus is worth? (based off your stats and talents)

im looking at having my t8.5 pants/gloves, ill be dropping my tier 7.5 gloves, will still have 3 pieces, but at that point im wondering if i can start looking for major upgrades over single pieces and keep the 2 piece bonus, or if i should go ahead and look at replacing it all (if the 2 piece is ignorable)

4T8 Thread Followup

I'll try to brainstorm ways to fit this into the modeling I was doing in WC, but for napkin math, estimate an increase in Starfire spam DPS equal to (SFCastTime - GCD)/13.3 . Something like 7%.

e: wait, 13.3s is the proc frequency at 15%. So maybe half that gain.

It'll be more than a straight 3-4% gain because any time when it procs while moving is a full starfires damage gain, instead of just the reduced cast time.