Moonkin Raiding - Page 56

Videl · 04/03/09, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Not a huge issue. You're almost never going to hit it exactly, so you'll have to make do with up to 8 either above or below. Within that range, you can make cases for being on either side of the cap (above the cap means a lot for utility, as you'll never miss that one important spellcast, but may not be the best allocation of stats). Being 2 under almost guarantees that you should stay below, since you'd be trading 10 spellpower for 2 hit. It's just not worth it. You're looking at 6/10,000 casts missing.

It's worth adding that the cap is only needed for utility spells on boss level mobs. Generally the only utility spells that have to land on boss mobs are interrupts, which we don't have. Often the trash that accompanies a boss which you may find yourself wanting to CC is level 80 or 82, which you should be well over the hit cap for.

Ebonwood · 04/03/09, 5:44 PM

To you guys that helped, thankyou. A few things I knew about, I sort of left them there for placeholders and long forgot about them haha. The two green gems I have are to make my meta gem work, but I'm swapping them for Sp/spi, although i don't really have mana issues. And, I'm far over teh hit cap because My BiS belt puts me just at the hit cap :P
Thankyou though, guys! I'll be changing things up a bit and seeing how they do.

Korhaug · 04/04/09, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

Potion of Wild Magic: 200 crit rating, 200 spell power. Spell power is worth roughly 1.1 DPS at T7.5 gear levels, crit is worth ~0.7 DPS. We'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say 0.75 DPS per point of crit rating. Wild Magic comes out at 370 DPS.

Potion of Speed: 500 haste rating. Haste is worth ~0.8 DPS at T7.5 gear levels. That's a 400 DPS increase. Advantage: Speed. Quite ignoring the fact that increasing your haste by that much will have much the same effect, or possibly even more, on your Eclipse proc time as upping your crit by less than half as much.

Those numbers are for sustained DPS, so it's incorrect to use them here. Your second point is also problematic, because assuming you're using lunar eclipse (which you should) you risk clipping your wraths. But that doesn't matter, because no one should use potions to proc eclipse faster.

You want to use the potion when it's most beneficial, which is at least during Eclipse, and during Eclipse+Bloodlust if you can. In that situation, assuming you're using lunar eclipse (see above), squeezing out 2 more SF is more valuable then getting an extra 200 SP and ~4.4% crit on the ones you're already casting.

Feathorne · 04/04/09, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Korhaug

Those numbers are for sustained DPS, so it's incorrect to use them here. Your second point is also problematic, because assuming you're using lunar eclipse (which you should) you risk clipping your wraths. But that doesn't matter, because no one should use potions to proc eclipse faster.

You want to use the potion when it's most beneficial, which is at least during Eclipse, and during Eclipse+Bloodlust if you can. In that situation, assuming you're using lunar eclipse (see above), squeezing out 2 more SF is more valuable then getting an extra 200 SP and ~4.4% crit on the ones you're already casting.

I disagree with your pot usage a bit, you can actually use 2 pots on a lot of fights if you time it right. Use a wild magic a second before the pull, then once in combat and after the 1 min internal CD of your potion, pop a speed pot during heroism. You are going to get your eclipse procing right away and Crit almost every cast during that time of your first pot and on the second more SF cast through the heroism. You can look at the numbers and compare math, but this works, I've seen the results.

Keifie · 04/04/09, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Feathorne

Use a wild magic a second before the pull...

While i understand the mechanics behind this, doesn't this really get wasted during the majority of the debuffing phase? Aside from that, is it really going to help the pull if we go all guns blazing and the tank has to use every cooldown going just to keep the boss off us? All we would end up doing is slowing our DPS a little after to allow the tank time to build threat before the next proc stage of our rotation.

Feathorne · 04/04/09, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Keifie

While i understand the mechanics behind this, doesn't this really get wasted during the majority of the debuffing phase? Aside from that, is it really going to help the pull if we go all guns blazing and the tank has to use every cooldown going just to keep the boss off us? All we would end up doing is slowing our DPS a little after to allow the tank time to build threat before the next proc stage of our rotation.

This is situational, on Patchwerk, as long as I am not pulling the boss, I am not going to pull agro.

verron · 04/06/09, 1:50 AM

i have been thinking of crit vs haste lately. i can't find a spot that says you should aim for x amount of haste or x amount of crit. my thinking is simple that if you have more crit isn't that more beneficial because more crit is more eclipse procs, more mana regen, and half a second off your next cast... is this a wrong train of thought?

Sorail · 04/06/09, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by verron

i have been thinking of crit vs haste lately. i can't find a spot that says you should aim for x amount of haste or x amount of crit. my thinking is simple that if you have more crit isn't that more beneficial because more crit is more eclipse procs, more mana regen, and half a second off your next cast... is this a wrong train of thought?

It is. Read here:
A Tale of Two Ratings

verron · 04/06/09, 3:05 AM

thanks for that post. so basically what i got from the post was that haste has a small lead in raw dps. what he doesn't take into account (he even says so) is the mana regen that crit grants us moonkins. so basically over shorter fights haste would always better, but what about longer fights? how about w/ the changes coming up in 3.1 to NG?

Erdluf · 04/06/09, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by verron

thanks for that post. so basically what i got from the post was that haste has a small lead in raw dps. what he doesn't take into account (he even says so) is the mana regen that crit grants us moonkins. so basically over shorter fights haste would always better, but what about longer fights? how about w/ the changes coming up in 3.1 to NG?

From a DPS standpoint, for an SF rotation, Haste is quite a bit stronger than Crit. If you need to gear for mana (trade Haste for some other stat), crit would be a good choice.

			Gear	Gem
	DPS	MP5	Cost	Cost
SP	1.47			
Int	0.53	1.18	0.45	1.00
Int DS	0.53	1.30	0.41	0.91
Spi	0.25	0.77	1.05	1.90
Cri	0.9	0.27	0.59	3.02
MP5		1	2.65	4.29
Haste	1.06

DPS column is from Simulationcraft PTR sample output.

MP5 column is my estimates (100% replenishment, 25k mana, 3/3 Intensity, 5/5 Furor, BoK, 2.5 casts/5s, 1.7 crits/5s, chain casting, 10 minute fight).

"Gear cost" column is DPS lost from removing enough haste to gain 1 MP5.

"Gem cost" column is DPS lost from removing enough SP to gain 1 MP5.

For the "cost" columns, lower is better.

"Int DS" row assumes 3/3 Dreamstate. Its "cost" ignores the cost of putting those talent points there.

For gear, where you typically have a choice between Haste, Spirit, or Crit, you'd want Crit in a low-mana situation.
For gems, where your choices are SP vs. the world, Int would be your best choice.

aeiron · 04/06/09, 5:39 PM

So I think I've gathered that for 3.1 3/3 IFF is worth the 3% crit, especially given the 5 minute duration, and if you have a shadow priest with misery and feral druid putting up FF, you don't even have to cast it. Sound about right?

Lord BEEF · 04/06/09, 5:42 PM

Improved faerie fire is worth it already for the 3% crit. It doesn't need to be your faerie fire to gain the crit.

Feritas · 04/07/09, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

IS-MF-W->eclipse-SF till 4-5secs left on icd-refresh dots-W->eclipse.

That could confuse some people to think they are supposed to refresh their dots in the end of eclipse CD if they are still running..

• Hamlet · 04/07/09, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Feritas

That could confuse some people to think they are supposed to refresh their dots in the end of eclipse CD if they are still running..

This shouldn't be an issue (although 4-5s is too early).

IS should be case when Eclipse is ending and again when it expires, which should be right as you're switching to Wrath (maybe after one Wrath).

MF: if you're running a 1-MF cycle, it will be down during the Eclipse ICD, so you put it up at some point (either at the beginning or end, end is a bit better). If you're running 2-MF, you do clip at the end of the ICD.

So in every case, you typically wind up refreshing DoTs right before starting the pre-Eclipse phase of the cycle again.

Keifie · 04/07/09, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Improved faerie fire is worth it already for the 3% crit. It doesn't need to be your faerie fire to gain the crit.

So when the Feral Tank is bashing away at Faerie Fire in thier rotation, we don't need to?
What about the whole, "There is a more powerful spell active" message that used to annoy me as a tank?