Moonkin Raiding - Page 56

Cloudshatter · 05/24/09, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Something like 7%.

If starfire is around 50% of our total dps (wild guess, don't have any WWS to prove, it's a 3.5% increase at 4+k damage? Around 140 extra dps?

Poromu · 05/24/09, 10:02 AM

Just going off our last Council kill
172 ticks of IS at 7% is roughly 12 procs, averaged SF 6672 over 7:03 minutes.

Came out to 190 dps (or 4% of my total). However this is assuming I was in movement every Starfire proc usage. Which on Council could of very well been the case.

Assuming I didn't move for any of them it would be basically cut in half to 95 dps. Either way it feels like 4pc will be a good thing again. Perhaps one of the more gifted people could run the math on it and perhaps what we're sacrificing by not getting BiS over 4pc Nightsong.

Xerophyte · 05/24/09, 11:46 AM

It's almost certainly worth keeping the set over the IL239 pieces. Rawr gives me a 53 DPS gain from the stat changes when going from 4/5 to 2/5 in an optimal way (swapping in the Robes of the Umbral Brute and Shoulderpads of Dormant Energies, specifically) and as noted a first order approximation of the 4 piece bonus puts it at around 100 DPS. The two options are likely quite equal even with the current version of the proc; it procs twice as often but is consumed to no effect 80% of the time, thus ending at around 40 DPS.

A more interesting test is the effect it'll have on our rotations, specifically how much benefit we gain from keeping IS up during Eclipse. We can approximate the effect as simply a larger IS tick: each one does its regular damage plus Starfire * 15% * (Starfire Cast Time - GCD)/Starfire Cast Time. I took some semi-default values out of WrathCalcs: an Eclipse'd Starfire hits for roughly 11750, a typical IS tick with the Glyph is 1230, average SF cast time in Eclipse is 2.14 and GCD is 1.16. The value of an IS tick in Eclipse then becomes around 2030/tick.

Further, DPET for Starfire in Eclipse is 5490 and for IS is 1756 per additional tick gained over not refreshing until the Eclipse is finished. Equivalence occurs at slightly more than 3 ticks, meaning that it's worth refreshing IS instead of casting Starfire when there are 4 or more ticks of IS in the Eclipse or 8 or more seconds of Eclipse remaining.

There are errors in that calculation -- I've not specified my gear setup in detail, I'm not properly accounting for lag, lost NG uptime or procs at the end of the Eclipse that are not fully utilized and probably more -- but it should be a good enough approximation to safely conclude that refreshing IS in Eclipse will be a DPS gain if you have 8-10 seconds or more remaining.

Zifrelm · 05/24/09, 11:52 PM

I plan on keeping just 2T8, legs and shoulders specifically.

It's not just how suboptimal the non-legs T8 are, it's how much +hit they have. A lot of the really good (i.e. non-spirited) non-tier items ([Collar of the Wyrmhunter], [Bracers of Unleashed Magic], [Sandals of Rash Temperament], all of which I have) have +hit on them, so add those to the best T8 item (legs), and there's little room for adding more +hit, such as from the T8 gloves. In fact, if I picked up the T8 gloves, not only would I be losing crit or haste in that slot, but I'd have to change one of my other items to be non-optimal as well.

Whichever way the scale tips in the final analysis, I think I'll be doing just fine w/o the 4T8 bonus.

Dráconus · 05/25/09, 2:06 AM

IMO, I am going at least for now for the T8 bonus. A lot easier to gear up 4 pieces of tier gear then to obtain the 239 items needed.

Vyshe · 05/25/09, 8:19 AM

With the current proc rate of 4p t8 I find myself wrathing a lot more, even during non-Hero/BL eclipses and most of the time during eclipse ICD, just to utilize those procs. It was so depressing to see procs eaten that I had to do something. Since it procs fairly often now I get streaks of it where I feel like a fire mage with Hot Streak, going wrath->SF, wrath->SF. On some fights I hardly care which eclipse I proc anymore since it's either more wrath damage or better chance for instant SF to crit. Once they fix the 4p and lower the proc I'll probably go back to W->SF->SF again. But until then, is anyone else doing this? I haven't really been able to come to any conclusion yet, but it *feels* like my dps range is larger, at the price of even more randomness than usual. It works well for movement fights since it's not always possible to get "perfect" stationary lunar eclipses and I suppose that could be the reason I don't see a big dps drop in Ulduar...

So, for theoretical dps, how does W->W/SF->W stand given 15% 4p procs and some judgement calls on when to just straight SF through lunar, tossing an extra SF on NG and such? Has someone modeled an average of it in WC or Rawr or mathed the highest potential of it given stars aligned and so forth?

Poromu · 05/25/09, 8:33 AM

Not using your Eclipse procs is probably going to be a dps loss no matter what. No math but my gut tells me 4pct8 isn't as good as 2pct7+2pct8 or 2pct8+misc except maybe on P2 Yogg w/o Keepers.

Edit: Until they fix the proc.

tarrek · 05/25/09, 10:02 AM

When wearing 4xT8 and using a Wrath rotation, would you benefit more from wearing the Wrath idol or the Starfire idol?

Cynex · 05/25/09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vyshe

With the current proc rate of 4p t8 I find myself wrathing a lot more, even during non-Hero/BL eclipses and most of the time during eclipse ICD, just to utilize those procs. It was so depressing to see procs eaten that I had to do something. Since it procs fairly often now I get streaks of it where I feel like a fire mage with Hot Streak, going wrath->SF, wrath->SF. On some fights I hardly care which eclipse I proc anymore since it's either more wrath damage or better chance for instant SF to crit. Once they fix the 4p and lower the proc I'll probably go back to W->SF->SF again. But until then, is anyone else doing this? I haven't really been able to come to any conclusion yet, but it *feels* like my dps range is larger, at the price of even more randomness than usual. It works well for movement fights since it's not always possible to get "perfect" stationary lunar eclipses and I suppose that could be the reason I don't see a big dps drop in Ulduar...

So, for theoretical dps, how does W->W/SF->W stand given 15% 4p procs and some judgement calls on when to just straight SF through lunar, tossing an extra SF on NG and such? Has someone modeled an average of it in WC or Rawr or mathed the highest potential of it given stars aligned and so forth?

I am doing the same, using starfire only to proc eclipse and spiting instant starfires, my starfire usage ends here. Althought i still prefer lunar during heroism or when fight is going to be long (mana issues).
I strickly keep with my eclipse rotation, meaning no random starfire pewpewing.

When wearing 4xT8 and using a Wrath rotation, would you benefit more from wearing the Wrath idol or the Starfire idol?

Wrath idol, considering you are wrathing during eclipse cd.

• Arawethion · 05/25/09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Vyshe

With the current proc rate of 4p t8 I find myself wrathing a lot more, even during non-Hero/BL eclipses and most of the time during eclipse ICD, just to utilize those procs. It was so depressing to see procs eaten that I had to do something. Since it procs fairly often now I get streaks of it where I feel like a fire mage with Hot Streak, going wrath->SF, wrath->SF. On some fights I hardly care which eclipse I proc anymore since it's either more wrath damage or better chance for instant SF to crit. Once they fix the 4p and lower the proc I'll probably go back to W->SF->SF again. But until then, is anyone else doing this? I haven't really been able to come to any conclusion yet, but it *feels* like my dps range is larger, at the price of even more randomness than usual. It works well for movement fights since it's not always possible to get "perfect" stationary lunar eclipses and I suppose that could be the reason I don't see a big dps drop in Ulduar...

So, for theoretical dps, how does W->W/SF->W stand given 15% 4p procs and some judgement calls on when to just straight SF through lunar, tossing an extra SF on NG and such? Has someone modeled an average of it in WC or Rawr or mathed the highest potential of it given stars aligned and so forth?

Check the latest spreadsheet I posted above, I think with the currently live version it's best to switch your filler to Wrath, Starfire during Eclipse, and use the SF Idol.

Lemzix · 05/25/09, 11:23 AM

On itemization.

For those of you using the solar rotation. How are you guys not waisting a bunch of stats on haste? Im curently using 2p since 4p has been so up in the air, with some other ulduar randoms (robes of the umbral brute, collar of the wyrmhunter, sash of ancient power etc) and I have to stick with lunar because i cant get anywhere near 400 haste. I think i have to lose 140. The 3pieces i just listed do have haste, which lead me to my perdicament: most good ulduar pieces have haste. It seems like getting ulduar upgrades with crit and not haste (and excess ammounts of hit) is going to be an ongoing problem. So I guess I could go the 4p route which im not a fan of since it seems more poorly itemized then other uld gear, then what do i swap? The chest has 75 haste.. so if i need to lower my haste and were to swap it out for the best offset chests (blind denizen or umbral brute).. well both of those have haste. Moving to jewelery the 2 best rings after hit cap are the KT one and the Ignis one, neither have crit and both have haste ..lol. Many of the crit rings have mp5. Anyway im ranting.. so back to the general question, maximizing crit without going much over the solar haste cap and getting upgrades in ulduar, how do you do it?

Kuruk · 05/25/09, 11:57 AM

1. A Basic but Fundamental Question

Under "normal" stand-and-nuke conditions, Moonkin DPS relies on having the highest DoT uptime possible, whilst performing an Eclipse rotation.

However, such conditions rarely exist in Ulduar. Fights are more complex and interesting and "standing and nuking" is impossible due to multiple combat mechanics that need to be avoided, as well as adds that need to be dealt with.

Which brings me to this question:

When is applying DoTs worth the GCD and when should we just nuke Wrath/Starfire?

Whilst I always strive to have the highest DoT uptime possible on bosses, I never know what to do on adds and trash. If a mob has very low HP and dies fast (let's take the Razorscale healer mobs as example), is it worth it to apply MF/IS on it? Or will it die before enough ticks are applied?

How long does a mob have to live for, for the DoTs to be worth spending the GCD to cast them?

I realise that it's a very basic question, but I can't recall it being discussed anywhere, and my extremely limited understanding of maths prevents me from calculating it myself. If any more knowledgable theorycrafter would be able to provide an answer (even if a general, napkin math one), I would be very grateful.

2. No Glyph of Insect Swarm

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Your spec/gear has a few significant errors (no Glyph of Insect Swarm, Dreamstate, Int/MP5 gems).

I'm not saying that lacking it wasn't an error in that particular case, but lack of Glyph of Insect Swarm doesn't always have to be one. I don't glyph for it, on purpose, as I was asked by my raid leader to provide the 3% hit debuff for the raid.

3. Rotation

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Check the latest spreadsheet I posted above, I think with the currently live version it's best to switch your filler to Wrath, Starfire during Eclipse, and use the SF Idol.

So that would mean:
Pre-Eclipse - Wrath
Eclipse - Starfire
Eclipse on CD - Wrath

Correct?

Two questions:

First of all, does it mean that you should aim for a bit more crit and a bit less Haste due to the amount of Wraths you are using? Or does most of your damage come from eclipsed Starfire anyhow, so that it shouldn't be an issue? Just worrying about Wraths getting clipped.

Secondly since most of the spells you will be casting will be Wraths, wouldn't the Wrath idol be a better choice? Or again is that because most of your damage comes from Starfire (and the DPS value of the SF idol doubles with crits) anyhow?

Finally, isn't Starfire during Eclipse CD still better if you are glyphed for it?

4. Talent Discussions

The conditions I am under at the moment:

- killed all bosses in Ulduar on non-Hard modes
- attempted Heroic Hard modes and successfully completed some Normal Hard modes
- gear is overall dissapointing (Armory shows solo gear, not my raid gear I'm afraid).

However, with the new Innervate (I always cast one on myself), I am never finding myself OOM. Even in 10-man raids.

Maybe that's partly my fault (not doing enough casts) but at the moment I am seriously considering going back to my pre 3.1 spec.

That would mean dropping all mana regen talents and give this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

However, once my guild starts attempting more Heroic Hard modes very seriously, fights will be getting much longer, healers might require my Innervate and OOM problems could possibly return. If they do, I would go with:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

3/3 Moonglow instead of taking Omen of Clarity because I use a Lunar rotation and keep a 100% uptime on Moonfire (two casts per Eclipse cycle) so prefer to take 0/2 Improved Moonfire and 3/3 Improved Insect Swarm to 2/2 Improved Moonfire and 2/3 Improved Insect Swarm, that I would have to if I took 1/1 Intensity.

Do I correctly assume that one point in Improved Insect Swarm is worth more than two points in Improved Moonfire under the conditions described above? (Having said that, since I have the Starfire glyph I probably should forego Moonfire clipping in any case)

3/3 Moonglow would also have the benefit of being the only talent helping on Vezax Hard mode (that we're currently aiming for on Normal mode).

timmytomma · 05/25/09, 12:03 PM

I dont try for itemization and i can find a way to get to 400 haste if i swap out some gear. I also dont have that much to begin with. However, a few things you said are wrong...both the kt and ignis rings have crit as well as alot of crit and haste. You will probably have to use a 2 hander with no haste or a no haste cloak to get what you want. I have seen several people's BiS sets that come out to rright around 400 haste. You may not be able to do it right away, but if you itemize with it in mind you should be fine.

• Arawethion · 05/25/09, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kuruk

1. A Basic but Fundamental Question

Under "normal" stand-and-nuke conditions, Moonkin DPS relies on having the highest DoT uptime possible, whilst performing an Eclipse rotation.

However, such conditions rarely exist in Ulduar. Fights are more complex and interesting and "standing and nuking" is impossible due to multiple combat mechanics that need to be avoided, as well as adds that need to be dealt with.

Which brings me to this question:

When is applying DoTs worth the GCD and when should we just nuke Wrath/Starfire?

Whilst I always strive to have the highest DoT uptime possible on bosses, I never know what to do on adds and trash. If a mob has very low HP and dies fast (let's take the Razorscale healer mobs as example), is it worth it to apply MF/IS on it? Or will it die before enough ticks are applied?

How long does a mob have to live for, for the DoTs to be worth spending the GCD to cast them?

I realise that it's a very basic question, but I can't recall it being discussed anywhere, and my extremely limited understanding of maths prevents me from calculating it myself. If any more knowledgable theorycrafter would be able to provide an answer (even if a general, napkin math one), I would be very grateful.

2. No Glyph of Insect Swarm

I'm not saying that lacking it wasn't an error in that particular case, but lack of Glyph of Insect Swarm doesn't always have to be one. I don't glyph for it, on purpose, as I was asked by my raid leader to provide the 3% hit debuff for the raid.

3. Rotation

So that would mean:
Pre-Eclipse - Wrath
Eclipse - Starfire
Eclipse on CD - Wrath

Correct?

Two questions:

First of all, does it mean that you should aim for a bit more crit and a bit less Haste due to the amount of Wraths you are using? Or does most of your damage come from eclipsed Starfire anyhow, so that it shouldn't be an issue? Just worrying about Wraths getting clipped.

Secondly since most of the spells you will be casting will be Wraths, wouldn't the Wrath idol be a better choice? Or again is that because most of your damage comes from Starfire (and the DPS value of the SF idol doubles with crits) anyhow?

Finally, isn't Starfire during Eclipse CD still better if you are glyphed for it?

4. Talent Discussions

The conditions I am under at the moment:

- killed all bosses in Ulduar on non-Hard modes
- attempted Heroic Hard modes and successfully completed some Normal Hard modes
- gear is overall dissapointing (Armory shows solo gear, not my raid gear I'm afraid).

However, with the new Innervate (I always cast one on myself), I am never finding myself OOM. Even in 10-man raids.

Maybe that's partly my fault (not doing enough casts) but at the moment I am seriously considering going back to my pre 3.1 spec.

That would mean dropping all mana regen talents and give this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

However, once my guild starts attempting more Heroic Hard modes very seriously, fights will be getting much longer, healers might require my Innervate and OOM problems could possibly return. If they do, I would go with:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

3/3 Moonglow instead of taking Omen of Clarity because I use a Lunar rotation and keep a 100% uptime on Moonfire (two casts per Eclipse cycle) so prefer to take 0/2 Improved Moonfire and 3/3 Improved Insect Swarm to 2/2 Improved Moonfire and 2/3 Improved Insect Swarm, that I would have to if I took 1/1 Intensity.

Do I correctly assume that one point in Improved Insect Swarm is worth more than two points in Improved Moonfire under the conditions described above? (Having said that, since I have the Starfire glyph I probably should forego Moonfire clipping in any case)

3/3 Moonglow would also have the benefit of being the only talent helping on Vezax Hard mode (that we're currently aiming for on Normal mode).

1. Very roughly, looking at my current spreadsheet numbers, IS/MF will beat the DPET of W/SF at around 4 ticks each.

2. Yeah, it's good to keep in mind.

3. I'm just going by the model I posted about above. It does slightly overvalue the W filler because it assumes Moonfire extension, but it's currently giving the W filler about a 50 DPS advantage. So it might be pretty close. Starfire Idol seems to have the edge in any case.

4. Trading 2 IMF for 2 Moonglow and trading 1 IIS for 1 OoC are roughly equivalent--each trades about 30 DPS for about 80 MP5. So it seems pretty reasonable to do either one and not the other. If you're not regularly able to Innervate yourself on long fights, doing both is probably good. With an Innervate, you should never have mana problems on any fight. OoC and Moonglow both help on Vezax, and I would imagine you'd certainly want both for the hardmode.

Selini · 05/25/09, 1:19 PM

Taking a dual spec for Vezax hard mode, with 1 point left would you take a point in Genesis or play with Owlkin Frenzy?

I'm leaning more towards Owlkin Frenzy in the hope that it would proc when a shadow crash is available for the straight up extra damage.

Any thoughts?

Kha · 05/25/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Selini

Taking a dual spec for Vezax hard mode, with 1 point left would you take a point in Genesis or play with Owlkin Frenzy?

I'm leaning more towards Owlkin Frenzy in the hope that it would proc when a shadow crash is available for the straight up extra damage.

Any thoughts?

Probably brambles as dots aren't worth putting up and I don't think there's any unavoidable physical damage to warrant Owlkin Frenzy.

3/3 moonglow would be a must though.

Edit: Nevermind, was remembering old patch notes about magical damage not proccing OF.

• Arawethion · 05/25/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Selini

Taking a dual spec for Vezax hard mode, with 1 point left would you take a point in Genesis or play with Owlkin Frenzy?

I'm leaning more towards Owlkin Frenzy in the hope that it would proc when a shadow crash is available for the straight up extra damage.

Any thoughts?

I don't see how you'd get any use out of Owlkin. What's hitting you? On the other hand, Genesis is pretty useless too. What are you taking points out of from your normal spec?

Selini · 05/25/09, 1:58 PM

So far I've dropped regen talents.

I also dropped celestial focus to try it out since I won't actively dps unless in Shadow Crash and my casting speed is already boosted in it so I figured I was safe to drop and test it. If I don't like the spec then I'll just rework the build to have CF in again.

As fo rthe owlkin part, I did tink maybe if I got lucky on the mark debuff proccing it but in theory no one should take damage from that so I just went with a point in Genesis to see how I do.

It's actually my dual spec atm on armory if it decides to update if you want to criticise it.

EDIT: Not 100% sure if I would need to unglyph IS for the hit debuff will ask later.
Also haven't actually gotten a spot for hard mode Vezax tries so far so hoping I can get to go tonight and try this spec out.

• Arawethion · 05/25/09, 2:22 PM

I doubt your Starfire hits the GCD even in a Crash (especially un-NG'ed), so CF would still be a DPS increase. I haven't tried Vezax hard yet--to what extent are you totally mana-limited? If your only goal is to get the most possible damage points per mana bar, then yeah, haste effects are useless.\

I've thought about unglyphing IS for Vezax, as any reduction to the total damage taken seems like it should be a help. But at this particular fight, maintaining high IS uptime is a real pain, so it might not be worthwhile. Also, I'm not sure whether healer mana or DPS is more of a limiting factor for hardmode.

Quewatoka · 05/25/09, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I don't see how you'd get any use out of Owlkin. What's hitting you? On the other hand, Genesis is pretty useless too. What are you taking points out of from your normal spec?

On hard mode the Saronite Animus casts AoE shadow damage (Profound Darkness). Eclipse, AoE and real MP5 talents are useless on him. Here's the spec Fusion's moonkin used in their US 1st H Vezax Hard kill: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Poromu · 05/25/09, 2:39 PM

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Is the spec I ran for our hard mode attempts, looking above it's identical to Fusion's Moonkin. Obviously anything with Moonfire's or Wrath is basically pointless. Unglyphed IS only when moving before Surge of Darkness. Otherwise spam SF in crash for easy 12-14k dps.

Owlkin Frenzy procs off of Mark of the Faceless (which is not completely avoidable all the time, only warlocks/mages/hunters can consistently avoid damaging the raid) so this is one hard mode it is most definately worth picking up over things like Eclipse that you'll never try to proc or IIS that you'll never MF before SF or wrath after IS.

Edited for accuracy.

ninor · 05/26/09, 4:54 AM

Are you sure Profound Darkness procs Owlkin Frenzy? According to Funkychicken, who wrote the moonkin part of the Fusion guide, it does not. And I was under the impression that auras usually did not proc this effect. Since you will have a lot of spare points anyway, I guess it's worth taking Owlkin Frenzy just for the occasional Mark damage.

Poromu · 05/26/09, 5:32 AM

Looking at the report I was wondering why OF procs seemed low for the ammount of times I took damage from Mark/PD. You're correct about Profound Darkness not proccing it. As you stated though it's still worthwhile since there's really no other options.

Also just to note, I didn't unglyph IS so I basically just didn't even cast it at all since the DPET of Starfire pretty much buries everything else in crash.

Selini · 05/26/09, 10:25 AM

The other moonkin in my guild that's been on the current round of tries is swearing blind that eclipse is worth it on that fight as "it takes 4-5 wraths to proc it"

That said he goes oom when the add is at around 30% so I am not sure what he is doing wrong. I haven't been to the fight on HM at all so I have no idea what to expect.

Really though is eclipse remotely worth it even if you could rely on having the proc up asap?

sulliwan · 05/26/09, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Selini

The other moonkin in my guild that's been on the current round of tries is swearing blind that eclipse is worth it on that fight as "it takes 4-5 wraths to proc it"

That said he goes oom when the add is at around 30% so I am not sure what he is doing wrong. I haven't been to the fight on HM at all so I have no idea what to expect.

Really though is eclipse remotely worth it even if you could rely on having the proc up asap?

If you are able to stand in crash for the full duration of eclipse, then yes, on average proccing eclipse is worth it.

Basically, casting wrath instead of starfire in a shadowcrash is around a 42% dps loss, eclipse with 2p t8 is a 45% dps increase for starfire, on average it should take between 4-5 seconds to get an eclipse proc, so you are trading 4-5 sec of 42% lower dps for 15sec of 45% higher dps, which is a net gain.