Moonkin Raiding - Page 58

Druidark · 04/12/09, 8:40 AM

It is showing now, i think armory had a bad weekend. I do get a lot of tank love though, very often I get vigilance, and when a dps gets to close, our lovely paladin will help with salvation.
For Ulduar you may be right for some fights, but i think this thread is bigger then ulduar topic only. For all current content I really don't need it. Saying i will never need it was wrong of me ofc.
I have been on ptr with the guild a few times and i had the 2/2 NR in my second spec but i never switched to it really, and sometimes i was helping healing. Ill be my own judge in Ulduar live to see if i need it on a certain encounter, especially after wiping a few times and getting comfortable with that encounter(better positioning/moving). If it limits my dps on a certain bossfight because the tank is not receiving the same 'absurd' buffs then it might be worth it for me, for that bossfight.

edit: my spelling fails

Rosoo · 04/12/09, 9:43 AM

Now that I see, I don't understand at all why you would choose typhoon over 3 yards and less threat. Gale winds as well is something that I would swap out for something else, but it's a bit more useful for making things go faster. I can't think of any raid current or upcoming raid situation where typhoon would be used with regularity in a fight.

Druidark · 04/12/09, 10:07 AM

When i get more comfortable with an encounter and we don't get a fixed location to hug up i will find some good spots where my range and location is optimal for the nature of the encounter. When i succeed in this then the second point in NR looses a lot of value to me.
Don't make this a typhoon><NR discussion please.
On gale winds you are absolutly right, and to some extent typhoon aswell if the encounter doesn't favor having it. But with dualspec coming i will make me a solotarget spec & a more aoe oriented spec. Also in ulduar we probably will need to invest a few points more in mana regen as it looks now. In that case i will value that regen more then that second point in NR.

Rosoo · 04/12/09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Druidark

When i get more comfortable with an encounter and we don't get a fixed location to hug up i will find some good spots where my range and location is optimal for the nature of the encounter. When i succeed in this then the second point in NR looses a lot of value to me.
Don't make this a typhoon><NR discussion please.
On gale winds you are absolutly right, and to some extent typhoon aswell if the encounter doesn't favor having it. But with dualspec coming i will make me a solotarget spec & a more aoe oriented spec. Also in ulduar we probably will need to invest a few points more in mana regen as it looks now. In that case i will value that regen more then that second point in NR.

Sorry, but in a thread where advice is being given to people with questions about raiding as a moonkin, I think questioning talents which are downright useless on most fights vs a talent which provides more mobility and less threat is the right thing to do. You're just hamstringing yourself into being closer to everyone else and restricting the distance you can put in between you and the mob.

Druidark · 04/12/09, 11:11 AM

I was confirming to Dreavgona that on patchwork threat is no issue at all, even with a pot. So you could use that NR point elsewhere. And i went further by saying that i don't need it in any current content. You play the Ulduar card to make a good point, which you do. Simply resolved by dualspec that is coming along with ulduar.

Why turn this in to another typhoon hate discussion... It is irrelevant because that point could be invested elsewhere, you just hammer on it because i invested it in typhoon. It can be used for more regen, typhoon, or for filling brambles/frenzy after dropping gale winds. And for an allround spec at this time typhoon was the best choice in my opinion.

Dirm · 04/12/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Druidark

I was confirming to Dreavgona that on patchwork threat is no issue at all, even with a pot. So you could use that NR point elsewhere. And i went further by saying that i don't need it in any current content. You play the Ulduar card to make a good point, which you do. Simply resolved by dualspec that is coming along with ulduar.

Why turn this in to another typhoon hate discussion... It is irrelevant because that point could be invested elsewhere, you just hammer on it because i invested it in typhoon. It can be used for more regen, typhoon, or for filling brambles/frenzy after dropping gale winds. And for an allround spec at this time typhoon was the best choice in my opinion.

This is already a bit of a dead horse, but...
You are claiming the second point of NR is useless, but that you regularly get vigilance and salv. Presumably you'd have threat problems without them, or else you wouldn't be getting them. Not everyone can regularly get vigilance and salv (if they have a non-war tank, few paladins in the raid, or other people need them more). Your argument is that a talent point is a waste in general because you personally get a lot of help with your threat. (also, I don't know if armory is screwy right now, but it seems disingenuous to share with us your personal experience of not needing 2/2 NR while you're missing ~400 spellpower from ungemmed/unenchanted gear)

Why do you consider it fair for you to harp on a second point of NR, but not fair for Rosoo to argue against a point in typhoon? If you don't have that point in typhoon, you could have it in anything: more regen, filling brambles/frenzy (really, frenzy?), or NR.

The vast majority of our talent selections are obvious. A few talent selections are not so obvious. Since they are not obvious, they will vary from situation from situation. If you are being showered in -threat buffs, obviously the extra -threat from the second point in NR is not useful to you (though it might be useful to their raid if it allows them to use those buffs on other people). If you're not doing fights where you are regularly running to be in range of mobs, the extra range from NR isn't useful. If you're not doing fights where you move a lot, getting the extra insta from typhoon isn't going to be as useful.

Rosoo, you say NR provides more mobility but describe typhoon as downright useless? How many fights in t7 involve movement, which means typhoon is an extra instacast you can cast during that movement. How many involve you pushing the limits of range on the boss? I personally find myself moving without an instacast available to cast more often than I find myself out of range of the boss. I don't know what it will be like in t8.

Rosoo · 04/12/09, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dirm

Rosoo, you say NR provides more mobility but describe typhoon as downright useless? How many fights in t7 involve movement, which means typhoon is an extra instacast you can cast during that movement. How many involve you pushing the limits of range on the boss? I personally find myself moving without an instacast available to cast more often than I find myself out of range of the boss. I don't know what it will be like in t8.

The big issue is this - to make using typhoon the right choice, you'd have have to be relatively close to the boss, so no mechanics where crowding is an issue. You'd have to be forced to move, and move longer than the time it takes to refresh both of your dots. Sartharion, Malygos, Loatheb (while running to a spore?), Maexxna (if you're on web wraps?), and Heigan are the ones that come to mind where it could be possible. For Sartharion, I think being close enough to the melee in order to typhoon could be a big liability, and severely limits your ability to optimally position yourself for maximum survivability. Using it on the adds is pretty crazy considering how much damage hurricane does, and how beneficial the hurricane debuff is. For malygos, it's just a shot in the dark during vortex, and a DPS loss in phase 2 considering how many adds there are to throw your dots up on.

I can't really comment on any of the other fights I mentioned with any conviction, as I haven't moved on them in a while, and the content is a joke. It currently fosters the idea that it's ok to be suboptimal just because it's so easy. The other two fights that have some semblance of difficulty are Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad. On both of those though, being close to the boss and not spreading out can have pretty big consequences.

So yeah, I mostly pronounce Typhoon useless due to it's low damage and the range at which you can use it. Creating situations in raids where Typhoon is good is almost a chore in and of itself.

Mideci · 04/12/09, 6:29 PM

Sorry, so the fact that Typhoon is flat out good on Maexxna and Gluth (yes, they are easy, but the spell is good) makes it "useless". The fact that on Sartharion a skilled moonkin can use it to buy a healer some precious time makes it useless? Let's leave aside the fact that it might be marginally dps beneficial on Malygos, Heigan and Loatheb (I'm guessing it is). In those other situations, it is flat out a utility spell.

That said, I find NR useful because I'm not of the opinion that I, or really anyone, can so reliably move to the correct spot that range isn't beneficial to have. Maybe you always go precisely where you want on Grobbulus so that you're never in a situation where the range wouldn't help you get an extra cast off. Maybe you never move sub-optimally on Sartharion and wish you didn't have more range.

There are several other non-required talents (that, yes, do boost DPS on the margins) that allow you to have both. The final "DPS talent points" are very marginal in benefit such that a reasonable moonkin can have Typhoon and certainly range/threat.

Since we are discussing raiding for people that might not be entirely flawless or expert playing moonkin, it's worth arguing for both.

Rosoo · 04/12/09, 7:00 PM

It's pretty situational on Gluth and Maexxna too. Maexxna's adds have so little health (7k normal, 14k heroic), they die to incidental AE. For gluth, it does quite a bit of damage, but you're also incredibly likely to knock them out of other people's AE. Same holds even more true for Sartharion in my opinion.

Feritas · 04/12/09, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Rosoo

It's pretty situational on Gluth and Maexxna too. Maexxna's adds have so little health (7k normal, 14k heroic), they die to incidental AE. For gluth, it does quite a bit of damage, but you're also incredibly likely to knock them out of other people's AE. Same holds even more true for Sartharion in my opinion.

Unglyphed Typhoon in a raid enviorment is not useless or a bad spend talent point its alot worse that that. Anyways lets leave the typhoon debate here, since EJ is known for usefull debates NOT debating if a spell is usefull or not atleast not when its a spell that is so situational as typhoon, if there are measurable data that can be debated if its usefull in speccific fights etc. i could see it relevent on these forums but lets try to keep them clean from irrelevant debates likes this one.

Lord BEEF · 04/12/09, 8:25 PM

I find glyphed typhoon to be quite useful. In addition to when moving, I use it any time there's more than one enemy but it doesn't make sense to use hurricane. This includes Anubrekhan, Sartharion, Grobbulus, Noth etc. I also get gale winds of course to make it worthwhile. As for range, it goes a full 30 yards in my testing.

I recommend trying it out with the glyph and using it at the times when a warrior would use cleave for example. It's not too tough to get a 1% total damage boost from it

Alerian · 04/13/09, 2:00 AM

Since the Typhoon Glyph is a minor glyph, it's worth having almost all the time as a MK (what else are you going to run in that glyph slot?) on live. In 3.1 where you can have 2 PvE specs, it would make sense to have something like 1 AOE-focused spec and 1 Regen spec.

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Glyphed insect swarm appears to still be the best glyph for the 3rd slot for maximum damage, but how much dps am I really losing if I swap from that to the starfall glyph? (This is assuming I want to provide the 3% miss debuff for at least some of the time)

My napkinish math ...

EDIT: Was wrong, read below for better info (and thanks for those who added it).

Mideci · 04/13/09, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by Alerian

Since the Typhoon Glyph is a minor glyph, it's worth having almost all the time as a MK (what else are you going to run in that glyph slot?) on live. In 3.1 where you can have 2 PvE specs, it would make sense to have something like 1 AOE-focused spec and 1 Regen spec.

My napkinish math figured that at 2000 spell damage, losing the IS glyph would be a loss of 200-250 dps. I thought about posting the math here, but I'm really, really not good at math (and I left it on my notepad at work, so I can't get to it atm).

I'm struggling to find WWS parses where anyone is doing more than 300-400dps from Insect Swarm (using IS damage/total damage). Whether or not Insect Swarm uptime is perfect -- it won't be -- if IS only maxes out at around 500dps in the next tier, the glyph can't possibly be worth much more than 100-120dps (30% of 400; i.e. 1.3x the unglyphed value = the actual dps -- over the fight -- of IS).

Now maybe I pooched the math bigtime there -- in which case someone will catch it. But the DPS of Insect Swarm part seems pretty hard to argue with. IS -- for purposes of whether you are glyphing it -- only does as much damage as you actually do with it over the course of the fight. Therefore, it's "DPS" is lower than damage done / IS duration. It should be total damage done by swarm / fight duration or insect swarm %age of damage done * total dps done for fight. The value of the glyph is ~23% of that end value (assuming the caster uses the IS glyph). The Starfall glyph has a non-zero value as well that should be compared with said value for a true comparison.

Starfox · 04/13/09, 7:45 AM

Originally Posted by Alerian

My napkinish math figured that at 2000 spell damage, losing the IS glyph would be a loss of 200-250 dps. I thought about posting the math here, but I'm really, really not good at math (and I left it on my notepad at work, so I can't get to it atm).

My napkin math shows that with a 100% uptime of IS you'll need around 10400SP pre-3.1.0, or 6600 with 3.1.0 to lose as much as 200 dps by dropping the IS glyph.

Lord BEEF · 04/13/09, 11:34 AM

Thanks for the info. I think I'll run with the starfall glyph and provide the 3% avoidance buff, at least some of the time.