I am curious to see some of your guys UI's and perhaps any specific addons you might use to track Eclipse, DoT's or just basic look and functionality. I'm kind of leary to start a UI thread since I have only really been super active on these boards since WotLK, prior to that I just read the Resto threads. It's an odd request since I am pretty sure the majority of us use Squawk and Awe and I thank Adorielle for that but I find i'm still curious.
I use DoTimer, Quartz, Power Auras and Ghost:Pulse.
You can use DoTimer's notifications module to create a bar for the Eclipse iCD, and redirect that bar to whatever anchor you want.
I had no problems at all with S&A, it's a great addon and I have directed many other moonkins to using it, but I chose to adapt DoTimer to handle Eclipse simply because I use DoTimer for my other characters (most notably my warlock).
[EDIT - Removed pic. It was superfluous info. I just wanted to share that the near ubiquitous DoTimer addon is perfectly capable of clearly showing both Eclipse bars]
Last edited by Kaitain : 05/29/09 at 8:38 AM.
Reason: numerous typos
I am curious to see some of your guys UI's and perhaps any specific addons you might use to track Eclipse, DoT's or just basic look and functionality.
I started with Squawk and Awe in February(?) but I ditched it after I found Quartz: Eclipse. Sorry Adorielle, maybe it has changed now, but S&A was downright ugly.
Anyway, I use Quartz now for everything and it works just fine (sorry for the dodgy layout, it's a screenshot taken laptop on which I don't raid on): http://superserije.com/images/eclipseui.jpg
EDIT: Put the screenshot into a link, to avoid turning this into an image thread.
Last edited by Cloudshatter : 05/28/09 at 8:41 AM.
On mobile fights (Hodir etc.) I try to move only when using global cooldowns, thus saving cast time. T4 proc is one of these (future, don't have 4-set yet) "movement-friendly" casts.
Once 3.1.3 hits whenever I move, aside from refreshing instants I will just be holding down starfire hoping on the proc to come and be eaten as quick. Since it still will have no iCD it can still potentially, however unlikely proc back-to-back.
Sorry I might have not made it clear, I don't wish to turn this thread into a bunch of UI screenshots. I am just reluctant to start my own.
Tellmewhen has proven to be quite useful. I use it to track my 4-piece proc. As someone mentioned above, it's helpful to know when you have an instant-case Starfire ready to go, so you can blow it while moving.
Tellmewhen is also very helpful on Hodir; I have it set up to show me when I have any or all of the buffs in nice clear boxes above my character, so I know when I'm close enough to a fire to just stop and cast, or when I need to run and spread the crit buff throughout the raid.
Incidentally, I also have it set up to show when Starfall and Force of Nature are off cooldown, so those get popped at the very next appropriate moment.
I think this solves quite some issues, doesn't it?
Does it?
I am unable to calculate the DPS you get from gear pieces, msyelf. You can get some general clues from putting items through statweights but different players use different statweights, so it isn't accurate by any stretch of the imagination.
Would anyone be able to calculate how much DPS the new 4pT8 set bonus is going to provide?
And how will it compare against the DPS you can get from the stronger non-set pieces you could use otherwise?
As a matter of fact Graylo has just published some numbers on the set bonuses in his block yesterday (4T8 = +163DPS for lunar and +122DPS for solar eclipse).
4piece T8 will be a very useful set bonus, when its fixed. Its even more valuable, when you consider, that you will be able to use the proc while moving, or it will proc more often, when IS is applied to multiple targets.
Sorry Adorielle, maybe it has changed now, but S&A was downright ugly.
You know, that's kinda why I included the options to change textures and borders... Maybe I should change the defaults to what I use, because they are pretty fugly.
Long time reader, first time poster. I've gone through this thread for quite some time now, but I have a few questions that haven't (I don't believe) been answered.
1. My gear lends itself (since 3.1 buffed the eclipse bonus to wrath) more to a Solar eclipse rotation (<400 haste, about 600 Crit). I know that with a lunar rotation, you shouldn't be refreshing your DoTs during eclipse. Does the same hold true for a solar rotation? My instinct tells me that you should wait until the iCD, but has anyone done the math/testing to prove it?
2. Both of my trinkets have bonus spellpower procs that, if procced together, give me 1000+ spellpower bonus. How do these procs work with DoTs? Does a DoT only recieve the bonus spellpower if its there at the time of the cast? Does the DoT still recieve the bonus if the buff has faded? In other words, do MF and IS recalculate the damage for each tick based upon the amount of spellpower at the time of the tick? If not, the highest DPS "rotation" would appear to be to recast DoTs when you get the proc (although this wouldn't help with DPM).
I don't foresee Haste becoming noticeably less valuable when 4T8 is live. Given that the proc will only be happening once every 25-30 seconds, there doesn't seem to be much basis for your assertion that it will have some large effect.
While I can see how my comment could be interpreted that way I was only responding to what I quoted. "So with the upcoming fix for the 4 piece T8, is stacking haste the way to go?". I read this as the fix somehow changes what the best stat is now, otherwise thats a very odd way of saying that stacking haste is best now and will continue to be best.
As you said, nothing really changes. Worst case is haste is now slightly less valuable, but I doubt there is any gear that would change for BIS. Stacking haste certainly doesn't become better with this change though.
The change the 4pct8 brings doesn't devalue haste enough to even merit any math on, it's 2 ppm.
Jaconis, with Lunar there's a threshold on when to refresh DoT's, I think with IS it's 6sec and MF is much more like 9 or 12. I would imagine this is relatively the same for Solar. Considering how close the two Eclipse rotations are in DPS. (Not to mention DPET.)
With your 2nd question, i'm not 100% but i'm pretty sure DoT's maintain your spell power on cast after your buffs fade. However refreshing them too early will probably still net a DPS loss.
2. Both of my trinkets have bonus spellpower procs that, if procced together, give me 1000+ spellpower bonus. How do these procs work with DoTs? Does a DoT only recieve the bonus spellpower if its there at the time of the cast? Does the DoT still recieve the bonus if the buff has faded? In other words, do MF and IS recalculate the damage for each tick based upon the amount of spellpower at the time of the tick? If not, the highest DPS "rotation" would appear to be to recast DoTs when you get the proc (although this wouldn't help with DPM).
Think of it this way: When you clip DoT ticks you need to be able to make up the damage you just overwrote. Say Insect Swarm ticks for 1k per 2 seconds - if you refresh 2 seconds early, your re-cast DoT needs to be ticking for about 150 more per tick (1000 over the 7 ticks) to be gaining benefit from it. If it's 4 seconds early, it'll be 300 damage per tick, and so on. I don't have Wrathcalcs or anything handy at work, so I can't tell you if this is true with 1000 spell power or however much you get from your trinkets, but I'm pretty sure it isn't worth it in the majority of situations.
DoTs calculate damage at the point they're cast, without changing past that point; you could have a +1000 spell power bonus for 10 seconds and cast a DoT with 2 seconds left on the buff, and the DoTs full duration would get that bonus.
The change the 4pct8 brings doesn't devalue haste enough to even merit any math on, it's 2 ppm.
Actually it makes quite a bit of difference. As a rough approximation, most of the benefit of Haste is from Starfire casts, and Haste won't benefit instant SF casts.
Simulationcraft shows that for a PW style fight, you get about as many IS ticks as SF casts. My "rough approximation" would indicate that Haste will be 8% less valuable, and SC sample output shows crit scaling slightly better than Haste in its BiS T8, even for a Lunar rotation (this is still using the current 4t8 mechanichism).
In real fights you might depend on Hurricane, where Haste is much better than crit. On the other hand you might have a lot of movement, meaning an even larger fraction of your SF's come from IS, and you get very little benefit from Haste.
From the last log in the WWS thread (I'm not saying it's typical, and it was Solar) filtering for defeated bosses, SF was 32% and Hurricane was 8%. Remaing casts were Wrath or instants. There were about four times as many IS ticks as SF casts. Those numbers almost certainly correspond to Crit > Haste, even more so if the new 4t8 were in place.
Actually it makes quite a bit of difference. As a rough approximation, most of the benefit of Haste is from Starfire casts, and Haste won't benefit instant SF casts.
You are very unlikely to have your GCD haste capped as that requires around 1500 rating as I recall. The interaction of lag is worse with instants than with casts which is going to have a small detrimental effect, but most of your haste will carry over.
[e] Colour me embarassed, then. Forgot about NG, point retracted.
You are very unlikely to have your GCD haste capped as that requires around 2000 rating as I recall. The interaction of lag is worse with instants than with casts which is going to have a small detrimental effect, but most of your haste will carry over.
Not with NG active. With NG and full raid buffs (WoA/Imp. Moonkin/CF), reaching 50% haste takes 401 rating.
Actually it makes quite a bit of difference. As a rough approximation, most of the benefit of Haste is from Starfire casts, and Haste won't benefit instant SF casts.
Simulationcraft shows that for a PW style fight, you get about as many IS ticks as SF casts. My "rough approximation" would indicate that Haste will be 8% less valuable, and SC sample output shows crit scaling slightly better than Haste in its BiS T8, even for a Lunar rotation (this is still using the current 4t8 mechanichism).
In real fights you might depend on Hurricane, where Haste is much better than crit. On the other hand you might have a lot of movement, meaning an even larger fraction of your SF's come from IS, and you get very little benefit from Haste.
From the last log in the WWS thread (I'm not saying it's typical, and it was Solar) filtering for defeated bosses, SF was 32% and Hurricane was 8%. Remaing casts were Wrath or instants. There were about four times as many IS ticks as SF casts. Those numbers almost certainly correspond to Crit > Haste, even more so if the new 4t8 were in place.
Your "rough approximation" that 8% proc chance for an instant starfire will lead to an 8% drop in the value of haste is just not based on any real math. The interaction between haste, cast times, and the GCD is more complex than you describe, not to mention that starfire is not the only spell you cast.
In real fights you might depend on movement. No one likes to model that because it's a pain, but I spend a lot of time running and you probably do too. And yes, haste does let you get more casts off in a moving fight.
Solar cycles have always valued crit over haste by a wide margin. This is not news, and has nothing to do with 4T8.
There is an ongoing debate over the relative weights of haste and crit, but until someone shows me some actual math on this (with numbers, *gasp*) I just do not believe that 4T8 substantially shifts those weights by itself.
There is an ongoing debate over the relative weights of haste and crit, but until someone shows me some actual math on this (with numbers, *gasp*) I just do not believe that 4T8 substantially shifts those weights by itself.
I'd be inclined to call SC's monte-carlo simulation "numbers." I don't think it is 4T8 by itself. Items like [Scale of Fates], combined with very high NG uptimes from 2T8 are also factors.
It is quite possible that there are errors in their model, although I currently believe it is the best one out there (except for not yet modeling the 8% 4T8 proc rate). It is possible that their latency is slightly too high, but I think it is pretty good.
Graylo's model is not yet including lag. The rotation is very complex for WC (although errors in WC are very small also).
I'd be inclined to call SC's monte-carlo simulation "numbers." I don't think it is 4T8 by itself. Items like [Scale of Fates], combined with very high NG uptimes from 2T8 are also factors.
It is quite possible that there are errors in their model, although I currently believe it is the best one out there (except for not yet modeling the 8% 4T8 proc rate). It is possible that their latency is slightly too high, but I think it is pretty good.
The latency model should be fully customisable, but SC itself is kind of lacking a good documentation for new user :/
PTR changes are all done, except the new Overkill for rogues.
There is no pre-compiled download, but I requested a new release from nate so people can test the new PTR changes. If you can compile it yourself, just checkout the latest revision from trunk and run it with:
patch=3.1.3
to get PTR mechanics
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
After talking to one of my buddies on my server we were wondering about what would be more dps. either using our stafrie ecplise or wrath ecplise? Now that they did just fix the bugg with the 4piece set bonus for T8 i was leaning to going to haste and using starfire. But with the 2 piece bouns would that over cap your starfire for crtis? Or would it be better to use wrath for the 15% more damage to it?
But with the 2 piece bouns would that over cap your starfire for crtis?
Er...
Compared to your lunar eclipses in 3.0, you lose 5% crit from scorch, 5% from no longer having 4T7, and gain 15% from 2T8, netting you only 5% over what you used to be critting at in 3.0. So unless your lunar eclipse starfires had a 95% crit chance in 3.0 (give or take a few percent from gear shuffling), you won't be anywhere near going over cap.
If you have access to it, [Treads of the False Oracle] is the complete linear upgrade from the malygos boots. But if 25 man hardmodes are out of the question then yeah its the spellslinger slippers as far as I know.
[Boots of Fiery Resolution] better then ^^ according to my Rawr and using a lunar rotation. They come out on top for both 4pc 7.5 and 4pc 8.5 not by much but enough to make them better. The [Treads of the False Oracle] also have a blue socket I think we have more than enough of them already.
@Hevonlee
Consider this when looking at the sockets:
Red socket+Yellow socket+6haste bonus equals 38sp or 27sp+14haste rating
Red socket+Blue socket+7sp bonus equals 38sp or 36sp+12stamina or 36sp+8spirit.
All of which are fairly equal, I would pick 36sp+12sta if I had the choice.
Removing all shared stats (& taking bok+imp gotw into consideration) it comes down too [Boots of Fiery Resolution] - Gemming for 27sp+14haste
+3.4 intellect (0.4sp & a tiny amount of crit)
+63.28 spirit (19sp)
+22haste rating (0.65% haste)
+1 spellpower
[Treads of the False Oracle] - Gemming for 36sp+8spirit to show max damage potential, worthwhile noting that this option potentially nets you 23stamina though.
+11stamina
+61crit rating (1.33%)
Ignoring the surplus intellect you are choosing between 1.33% crit or 20spellpower+0.65% haste.
For solar eclipse the choice is obvious, for lunar its fairly equal probably favouring the spirit ones slightly (In any case the optimal choice if you attempt to distribute loot wisely & arent running 1 million holy priests)
---
Anyway a long reply to not really make any interesting points, allthough its nice to sit down & compare items in hand, rather than having to trust fx Rawr (Very double standard as I'd use statweighting from Wrathcalc to compare the statdifferences with actual gear!).
Anyone noticing the proc on 4t8 still not working right? I posted in the Damage Dealing forums but only one other person has posted experiencing the same issue.
05/28/09, 6:43 AM
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