Ailetha

40 hit rating over the 46 Spell Power food

or the equivalent in gems:

40 Hit Rating + 9 Spell Power (3 Gem Slots x 2 Rigids + 1 Veiled) over 57 Spell Power (3 Gem Slots X Runed Scarlet Ruby of 19 SP each)

I would always go for using hit food to cap over using spell power. Ya, it would be kind of a pain to switch food if you ever needed to, but if you have to choose between one or the other, you will get more DPS from using hit food and putting non-hit stats in those gem slots. Blizzard itemized hit compared to other stats like this since 3.0 came out - you'll find that hit food will be better to use in every single case and will eek out a few more DPS stats for you than putting the same hit on your gear.


If you have any haste buffs at all in your raid or in your spec, it is the best choice. Clipping will hurt your DPS over anything else you could do to mess up the rotation.


He was probably casting IS just to improve the DPS of Wrath. Casting Wrath at all at that level is a huge DPS loss - you have to cast it to get the good buff, so it's ideal to boost the damage that crappy spell is doing however much you can.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Ailetha.png

 

Layeth

Please be aware that Heroic Presence is a group-only buff and not raid. Also must be within 30 yards of them to get the buff.

 

ToraTiggy

Wait I'm confused, by Wrath idol do you mean [] versus the Starfire idol []? I don't see how either idol would explain the difference in your Eclipse procs (2.6 vs 3.8 average) or was that just luck of the draw between your two tests?

 

Ashaera

Its a raidbuff. - Edit: Me being abit to stubborn, just disregard this.

-----
Ailetha -> Hitfood is indeed more itemization points - But realistically you will have a hard time not capping hit, or bringing your need to the actual range where you benifit enough from the hit food to make it better.

We strongly disagree on how to use wrath - I use starfire to proc eclipse & spam wrath during it. Its not a bad spell & your view on it is by no means allways the right answer.

 

zinc

yes those 2 idols is what i was testing with, the eclipse procs were just a matter of luck

 

Vidandric

Wrong, it's a party buff, with a 30 yard range, like stated above.

 

Ashaera

I'm embarrassed now! I'll edit my above post to prevent confusing people.

 

Daylis

The number of 6 tests is just too low to give a fair estimation. Too much impact of RNG.

About the food... yes, 40hit food would indeed be most optimal, but as said before, you'll have to struggle to keep yourself 40hit below cap of 262/3 (realisticaly to assume a SP in raid).
There's also a mandatory 10sec waiting for it to take effect before boss engaging, missing out on those lovely Great Feasts everyone loves so much. You also need 3 fish to make 1 hit food. Even if you dont wipe much (farm content), that's a lot of fishing to be done, not to mention spices spent on it.

I guess it isnt that much of a hassle on farmed content, but i just cannot imagine i'd bear the tedius of it on progression raids. Unfortunately, there's where you need that extra edge the most ;(

I'm sticking with great feasts.

 

Eilt

I find that while gearing up the hit food is a great way to get to the cap. You only need ~8.5% of the 10% needed if you are eating hit food. So until I get more hit gear to drop I will be using the hit food. Also worth mentioning the "feast" is only 35 spellpower, if you want 46 spellpower you will have to use spices to make a single food not a raid one.

 

Druidowar

Hey I'm new here. I was just wondering if it would be worth everyone posting how much dps they can do unbuffed on a test dummy because it's easier to compare and improve on dps that way i'd imagine since conditions never change, unlike raids

I seem to struggle to push past 3000 in my gear.

 

Druïd

How exactly would it help us to post the DPS you can reach on a target dummy?
If you would like to know a way to improve your DPS it might be worth checking if you're using the correct rotation, which you can find earlier in this thread, or use WrathCalcs to find the best rotation for you.

You could also check if you're using the correct gems and enchants for your gear.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Dummy DPS isn't that important because you're missing out on important raid buffs and debuffs.

One thing I've noticed is that going without winter's chill and the other 3% crit debuff wreaks havoc on my rotation.

I like to Moonfire, then wrath until eclipse procs and starfire, which then refreshes the initial moonfire.

Without the 10-13% crit provided by those debuffs I find myself not being able to switch to starfire in time to refresh the moonfire debuff which really hurts things.

 

Eothlorien

I want to re-examine the clipping of the GCD from NG procs when casting Wrath by comparing it to Starfire.

My currents applicable Stats (fully raid buffed):
Haste Rating = 413
Crit% = 45

Assuming 100ms lag:
Lag Adjusted Base Wrath Casting Time (WB) = 1.36s
Lag Adjusted Base Starfire Casting Time (SFB) = 2.62s

The Starfire average cast time reduction from NG @ 45% Crit is:
((SFB -(Crit% * (SFB - 0.5)) + ((1 - Crit%) * SFB)) / SFB)
(2.62 - (.45 * 2.12) + (.55 * 2.62)) / 2.62)
0.225/2.62
8.588%

The Wrath average cast time reduction from NG @ 45% Crit is:
Note*** 'WB - 0.5' cannot be less than 1.1 due to the GCD + latency
((WB -(Crit% * (WB - 0.5)) + ((1 - Crit%) * WB)) / WB)
(1.36 - (.45 * 1.1) + (.55 * 1.36)) / 1.36)
0.117/1.36
8.603%

Assuming 200ms lag:
Lag Adjusted Base Wrath Casting Time = 1.46s
Lag Adjusted Base Starfire Casting Time = 2.72s
Starfire - 8.272% reduction
Wrath - 8.014% reduction

It appears from 0ms latency to just over 100ms latency, Wrath spam receives a larger bonus from a NG proc than compared to Starfire spam. This is assuming the current Haste and Crit% I listed above.

 

mokg

I saw your WWS and was rather unimpressed with it:

Wow Web Stats

You have a quick kill time, an absurdly high crit rate on the nuke you're boosting via eclipse, and an ele shaman which I did not have. All of this while "only" pulling 4871 dps. Now lets take a look at a WWS using eclipse the other way(as mentioned by me much earlier in this thread or the other moonkin one).


Wow Web Stats

I have almost a 51/54% raid buffed crit chance on wrath/starfire. My wrath crit % was awfully low which lead to late eclipse procs and dps loss. My starfire crit was at 66% which is a bit lower then it should be(slightly over half my starfires would have 30% extra crit). I severely messed up my rotation proccing eclipse off starfire once, and refreshing my dots at 3%(was using %'s for the first time) only to have patchwerk die right after. Both spreadsheets and actual playing have shown that proccing eclipse from wrath is more beneficial. But play how you want, I don't mind having higher parses then others.

 

Druidowar

With respect to late eclipse procs, i've had several periods where i have wrath spammed for 30s-1min without a proc, this is with an approx 40% crit chance raid buffed and 2/3 Eclipse. Is it safe to say that it's just unlucky RNG or should i stack more crit and try running with 3/3 Eclipse?

 

Ashen

If you're going to try an Eclipse cycle, I would not recommend going at it without 3/3. You should see a substantial change with your already fairly high crit chance and the 3/3 Eclipse.

 

Comp

I'm looking at everyones parses and I'm like 1-1.2k dps under and my stats only put me at 100-160 spell dmg under. Am I just losing cast time due to lag movement or what, I'm really trying to step my game and be more competitive. Here is a patchwerk kill from a nite in naxx.

Wow Web Stats

I'm still learning what to look for in parses, thanks in advance.

 

dukes

Treants did 34k damage, which is one cast, while the fight lasted for 4 minutes (2 casts worth).

66 dots of Moonfire is ~198 seconds of time, while the fight lasted 232 seconds.

21 dots of Insect Swarm is only 42 seconds worth of uptime out of the 232 seconds.

In general your stats are much worse aswell - 300 spell damage / 2-5% crit / 2-5% haste worse than others who have posted ~5k dps wws's

 

Ashaera

We can surely agree that 4871dps is far from impressive by now, killing speed is not a huge factor in moonkin dps though (fx. Our first Naxx clear: 3.58 4.7k ). Double trees helps surely, & lower heroism uptime is not really hitting moonkins as much as others.

Funny thing about that wws is that wrath lists in there with a 10-15% crit below expected values & the end result is more or less the same (3.58 was in worse gear, but atleast not as laggy).

With that being said i'm still playing around with rotations, & we can agree that my prefered way is definatly not the only way.
----
If you want to compare the two wws's you listed then you need to factor MS in aswell, I dunno how your server acts on wednesdays though.

Going by your armory you have 10.13% haste / I got 13.42%.
My kill 148 seconds : 38starfire + 48 GCD (35wrath, 6x moonfire, 5x IS, 2x various) - Total crits = 42
Your kill 155 seconds : 44starfire + 48 GCD (32 wrath, 6x moonfire, 8x IS, 2x various) - Total crits = 47 (Difference from your moonfire actually critting & 3 more on starfall - chance of overlapping procs but lets ignore that).

Going very simple & assuming that all Nature's grasp proc goes to the spell that procced it (with moonfire+starfall ones going to starfire).
Ignoring shared haste buffs (wrath of air, heroism, potion of speed) & without checking for doubleprocs of Nature's Grace this roughly gives :
Assuming 100 MS my casts indicate : 2.49*21 + 1.99*17 + 1.25*11 + 1*24 + 13*1.25 + 0.1*86 = 148 seconds.
Yours assuming 100 MS : 2.56*15 + 2.06*29 + 1.28*20 + 1*12 + 1.28*16 + 0.1*92 = 165 seconds.

Your number is about what I would expect when factoring in lag & additional haste buffs -- My number shows me what I allready knew (that its pointless to raid on wednesdays on Al'akir if you care about wws-scores).

Give me 9 more seconds of casting time & id do an additional 2x starfire hits+2x starfire crits averageing out 34928 damage - which spread over 148 seconds is 236dps.

----
Above is surely inaccurate, I tried favouring you slightly in casttime roundings to make sure my result wasn't to biased too much by my initial feeling. At the end of the day the two wws's listed against eachother hardly proves anything more than both rotations being fully capeable of breaking 5k dps.

 

dukes

Just FYI, starfall NG procs generally get eaten with no effect as long as you're chaincasting. The NG proc gets eaten when the spell casts, but the effect kicks in at the beginning of the cast. With chain casting, assuming all lag is compensated for, there is no window in which the NG procs can actually take effect for the spell you're casting before being eaten by the cast completion.

Obviously this changes as soon as you start critting wrath, or casting moonfire/IS whilst using Starfall, and it may be of more total worth to use Starfall prior to refreshing dots because of this effect.

As for lag on Al'akir, just don't start with Abom wing first as it's the most heavily affected by lag. Spider/Plague is perfectly doable with some lag, and by the time you finish them then most of the lag will have gone (although it still won't be good enough for doing proper Patchwerk DPS testing at any point on a wednesday really, I agree).

 

spartakos

I have a few more general questions.

1) Is there a best in game idol or it depends on your eclipse rotation?
2) What are you allowed to cast during eclipse and Bloodlust /Heroism? Assuming you have IIS

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL.../spartakos.png

 

mokg

The starfire idol from heroic raz is definitely best in game unless you have some absurd wrath spamming rotation. It's been posted before that you refresh dots if the eclipse has just started and not to bother if they fall off mid eclipse, more details are somewhere in this or another thread in these forums. During Heroism I stick to my normal rotation of wrathing until eclipse proc then starfire spamming, while keeping up DoTs. Also time your treants to coincide with heroism, they do a bit more damage .

 

Humbaba

Is anyone else having Rawr tell them that the Heroes Dreamwalker Cover is significantly better than the Valorous Dreamwalker Cover? This appears to be utterly incorrect since Valorous is the same item with more stats. It has me concerned about the other results, though everything else appears to be along the lines of what I would expect.

 

Dirm

Isn't raven goddess still competitive, depending on raid comp? It seems like 20 crit rating per caster adds up pretty quickly vs 165 spellpower on only ~55% of personal dps.

 

◊ Protokoll

Yes, Rawr is telling me the same thing; however, if you compare the items you'll quickly realize that the Valorous Dreamwalker Cover has the same exact stats -- just more of them. It's obviously an upgrade and the error is with Rawr.