Moonkin Raiding - Page 63

Nureyev · 06/18/09, 4:02 PM

Thanks Hamlet, I'll try to dig up some of our latest hard mode parses and run some napkin math as well.

Ioncannon · 06/18/09, 4:03 PM

With the changes to ecclipse correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you want to keep under haste cap for wrath ecclipse to max overall dps?

• Adoriele · 06/18/09, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I think you're misreading the BoP change; it looks like it will still give 4% hit. It's just a buff of 6% magic damage reduction, which was probably intended for PvP but is still a pretty nice random pickup for PvE.

Eh, I liked being able to ignore Flame Jets more often than the rest of the raid =/ I suppose the new version still works out to more mitigation overall, but the convenience is now gone.

As for the idols, it may in fact change their relationship, as the relative time spent casting each spell is now different. Previously, you'd favor one spell or the other (minorly if your pre-Eclipse spell matched your post-Eclipse spell, majorly if it didn't). Now, however, however, time spent casting each spell will be roughly the same, so the one which provides a larger mangitude change to its spell will likely win. Not sure on those numbers since I haven't focused on them recently, but I expect the Starfire Idol is still going to win out, if only because of its higher iLvL (unless I'm off base, the IS idol is still going to come up short).

[edit]

Originally Posted by Ioncannon

With the changes to ecclipse correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you want to keep under haste cap for wrath ecclipse to max overall dps?

Hmm. It's going to affect things for sure, especially since the numbers were so close in 3.1. I'd expect it's not going to be a hard cap, but Crit will likely be more favorable after the change since it will affect both spells.

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 4:28 PM

BoP: That's a rare case where the old BoP was better. Lots of hard fights threaten spikes with magical damage (hardmodes of Thorim/Freya/Vezax/etc.) and this is a meaningful improvement to survivability.

Idols: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. SF Idol is more spellpower, and SF/W usage is going to be pretty evenly split now.

Haste: Ugh, I hate the modeling issues surrounding chaincasting Wrath. I'm still not confident that we're taking latency into account the right way.

Poromu · 06/18/09, 5:08 PM

I still see haste beating out crit, less dominantly as before, but still coming ahead since it reduces the GCD on our instants as well as affecting half our cast rotation whereas crit will affect half our rotation and our other half to a much lesser degree. This is just an opinion though and math may counter it, but it seems to make sense.

The question I have now is would we just refresh DoT's as soon as they fall off? DPCT/DPS seems to support this thought process, though i'm not certain.

Starfall seems like it'll be used for the wrath eclipse for NG up-time. Same with FoN since losing a gcd under Solar eclipse is a lot less detrimental than losing one under a Lunar eclipse.

A really big question I am thinking is, with precisely double the time under Eclipse, won't our dps be too high? Moonkins aren't the best hybrid class but with this change we could very well rival pures on every fight (which on some I already do.)

Edited for clarity: I only beat them when the stars align. But mostly Vezax/Hodir when i'm lucky.

Tempestra · 06/18/09, 5:23 PM

It will remain to be seen once we apply it in practice, but I'm pretty confident in saying Moonkin needed a lot more help than most classes in terms of DPS. If you're regularly beating your pures, they probably suck (sorry!), or you're attacking General Vezax / Hodir.

I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Mehknic · 06/18/09, 6:03 PM

I wonder if crit will gain more value through tightening the eclipse/dot application rotation now. Before, I could let MF/IS overlap into the Eclipse ICD by quite a bit and refresh them halfway through without much thought. Now, hopefully, that time will be spent in the other Eclipse, and so a tight, smooth transition from one Eclipse to the next would prove more valuable than more spells cast during each Eclipse (as, ideally, we're Eclipsed much more often now).

That's my train of thought, at least.

Numeno · 06/18/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Poromu

I still see haste beating out crit, less dominantly as before, but still coming ahead since it reduces the GCD on our instants as well as affecting half our cast rotation whereas crit will affect half our rotation and our other half to a much lesser degree. This is just an opinion though and math may counter it, but it seems to make sense.

Dots have the same issue wrath has. More Haste after you hit the 1sec GCD is wasted in some situations. Its not uncommon that you cast your dots with the 20% haste buff active. Since only the initial portion of MF can actually benefit from crit, you don't really lose much by having a ton of haste vs putting some of that haste into crit on dots. The extra haste doesn't help, but neither does the extra crit really.

That said, I don't have math to back up which would be better. All I know is the relative stat values now.

These were for my BIS gear excluding hardmode gear(in 10 or 25) due to me being unsure when I'll have access to it.

Lunar - 1.8 Haste, 1.67 Crit
Solar - 2.15 Crit, 1.32 Haste

I'm sure others can come up with slightly different numbers, but the ratios can't change drastically. Going with the assumption that dmg will be roughly equal between the 2 spells in 3.2, from those numbers I have to assume that crit will be better than haste if your haste softcapped(400ish if you have full raid buffs). Crit also has the benefit of not being reduced due to latency.

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Numeno

Crit also has the benefit of not being reduced due to latency.

How does latency affect the marginal value of haste?

Starfox · 06/18/09, 7:11 PM

After raid was over, I implemented the new Eclipse in SimCraft and did some runs with scalefactors
3.1.3 Run
input

druid=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xRbuiIsfdIVhouZbxczb
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion
actions+=/innervate,trigger=19000
actions+=/treants
actions+=/starfall,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/moonfire,eclipse_left>=12
actions+=/insect_swarm,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/wrath,eclipse=trigger
actions+=/haste_trinket,name=scale_of_fates,length=20,rating=432,cooldown=120
actions+=/starfire 

# Standard Gear Attributes http://www.chardev.org/?template=176626
gear_stamina=958
gear_intellect=1005
gear_spirit=464
gear_spell_power=2361
gear_hit_rating=261
gear_crit_rating=614
gear_haste_rating=349

tier8_2pc=1
tier8_4pc=1

# Meta Gem
chaotic_skyflare=1

# Item Procs
flare_of_the_heavens=1

# Glyphs
glyph_moonfire=1
glyph_starfire=1
glyph_insect_swarm=1

# Relic
idol_of_the_shooting_star=1

Output

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.1.3 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
   6454 100.0%  Raid
   6456  100.0%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF (balance)  DPS=6456.5 (Error=+/-3.1 Range=+/-673)  DPR=22.2  RS=291.0/286.9  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=94  agility=77  stamina=1058  intellect=1257  spirit=625  health=14000  mana=22076
  Spell Stats:  power=2699  hit=13.95%  crit=22.76%  penetration=0  haste=10.64%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats  power=-362  hit=7.96%  crit=21.77%  expertise=0.00  penetration=0.00%  haste=13.84%
  Defense Stats:  armor=154
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 15.7|19.3sec  DPE=  9343| 8%  DPET=  7852  DPR=  35.4  pDPS= 490  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=108  Tick=1365
    moonfire              Count= 10.5|29.6sec  DPE= 11716| 6%  DPET=  9868  DPR=  17.2  pDPS= 409  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 334  Crit=  698|  775|50.3%  TickCount=80  Tick=1465
    starfall              Count=  3.9|94.6sec  DPE= 13049| 3%  DPET= 10484  DPR=  10.0  pDPS= 168  Miss=0.1%  TickCount=76  Tick=449  CritTick=940|1648|44.3%
    starfire              Count=102.0| 2.8sec  DPE= 12268|65%  DPET=  6166  DPR=  24.0  pDPS=4170  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6892  Crit=14412|16726|71.5%
    wrath                 Count= 51.3| 5.6sec  DPE=  5671|15%  DPET=  4968  DPR=  16.1  pDPS= 969  Miss=0.1%  Hit=3827  Crit= 7998| 9271|44.2%
   treants  (DPS=355.8)
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE=  1786| 4%  DPET=  1226  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 250  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1867  Crit= 3733| 3946|8.2%  Glance=1400|24.0%  Dodge=6.5%

Gains:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5439.2  (overflow=16.8%)
        initial_mana=25994.3
        judgement_of_wisdom=6999.8  (overflow=1.4%)
        mana_potion=742.3
        moonkin_form=50803.8  (overflow=3.1%)
        mp5_regen=5613.5  (overflow=11.8%)
        omen_of_clarity=5115.0
        replenishment=16426.6  (overflow=15.6%)
        spirit_intellect_regen=29.3  (overflow=51.4%)

Procs:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        flare_of_the_heavens=5.6|53.23sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=101.5|2.96sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.5|28.69sec
        tier8_4pc=8.6|34.75sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy                  
        100.0% : improved_scorch               
        100.0% : improved_shadow_bolt          
        100.0% : master_poisoner               
        100.0% : savage_combat                 
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath                
        100.0% : winters_chill                 

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
         55.9% : eclipse_starfire              
         84.5% : natures_grace                 
        100.0% : replenishment                 

Waiting:
    All players active 100% of the time.

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 19362077
  MaxEventQueue = 17
  TargetHealth  = 1931236
  SimSeconds    = 3000290
  CpuSeconds    = 18.156
  SpeedUp       = 165251

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=0.999128 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000564

Scale Factors:
  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF       Int=0.34  Spi=0.29  SP=1.20  Hit=2.84  Crit=0.63  Haste=0.76  Lag=10.46

3.2.0 Runs
Input

patch=3.2.0

druid=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xRbuiIsfdIVhouZbxczb
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion
actions+=/innervate,trigger=19000
actions+=/treants
actions+=/starfall,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/moonfire,eclipse_left>=12,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/insect_swarm,eclipse_left>=12,skip_on_eclipse=1
actions+=/wrath,eclipse=trigger
actions+=/wrath,eclipse=benefit
actions+=/haste_trinket,name=scale_of_fates,length=20,rating=432,cooldown=120
actions+=/starfire,eclipse=benefit
actions+=/starfire,eclipse=trigger

# Standard Gear Attributes http://www.chardev.org/?template=176626
gear_stamina=958
gear_intellect=1005
gear_spirit=464
gear_spell_power=2361
gear_hit_rating=261
gear_crit_rating=614
gear_haste_rating=349

tier8_2pc=1
tier8_4pc=1

# Meta Gem
chaotic_skyflare=1

# Item Procs
flare_of_the_heavens=1

# Glyphs
glyph_moonfire=1
glyph_starfire=1
glyph_insect_swarm=1

# Relic
idol_of_the_shooting_star=1

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.0 ( iterations=9999, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
   6980 100.0%  Raid
   6982  100.0%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF (balance)  DPS=6982.5 (Error=+/-3.9 Range=+/-814)  DPR=23.0  RS=303.7/299.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=94  agility=77  stamina=1058  intellect=1257  spirit=625  health=14000  mana=22076
  Spell Stats:  power=2699  hit=13.95%  crit=22.76%  penetration=0  haste=10.64%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats  power=-362  hit=7.96%  crit=21.77%  expertise=0.00  penetration=0.00%  haste=13.84%
  Defense Stats:  armor=154
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 15.9|19.1sec  DPE=  9333| 7%  DPET=  7891  DPR=  35.2  pDPS= 494  Miss=0.1%  TickCount=109  Tick=1363
    moonfire              Count=  9.8|31.7sec  DPE= 11437| 5%  DPET=  9459  DPR=  16.8  pDPS= 374  Miss=0.1%  Hit= 334  Crit=  699|  775|50.1%  TickCount=73  Tick=1467
    starfall              Count=  3.8|96.1sec  DPE= 12890| 2%  DPET= 10356  DPR=   9.9  pDPS= 162  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=73  Tick=449  CritTick=941|1648|44.3%
    starfire              Count= 70.0| 4.1sec  DPE= 12904|43%  DPET=  6580  DPR=  25.2  pDPS=3013  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6881  Crit=14423|16726|79.9%
    wrath                 Count=109.9| 2.6sec  DPE=  7337|39%  DPET=  6477  DPR=  20.9  pDPS=2690  Miss=0.1%  Hit=4954  Crit=10352|13444|44.2%
   treants  (DPS=355.3)
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE=  1783| 4%  DPET=  1224  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 250  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1866  Crit= 3732| 3946|8.2%  Glance=1399|24.1%  Dodge=6.6%

Gains:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5480.4  (overflow=16.2%)
        initial_mana=25994.3
        judgement_of_wisdom=6834.0  (overflow=1.5%)
        mana_potion=933.3
        moonkin_form=54467.8  (overflow=4.3%)
        mp5_regen=5615.1  (overflow=11.8%)
        omen_of_clarity=5346.5
        replenishment=16530.4  (overflow=15.0%)
        spirit_intellect_regen=18.3  (overflow=52.2%)

Procs:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        flare_of_the_heavens=5.7|52.16sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=99.3|3.02sec
        omen_of_clarity=11.9|25.12sec
        tier8_4pc=8.7|34.34sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy                  
        100.0% : improved_scorch               
        100.0% : improved_shadow_bolt          
        100.0% : master_poisoner               
        100.0% : savage_combat                 
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath                
        100.0% : winters_chill                 

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
         73.2% : eclipse_starfire              
         66.4% : eclipse_wrath                 
         85.4% : natures_grace                 
        100.0% : replenishment                 

Waiting:
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 19901114
  MaxEventQueue = 16
  TargetHealth  = 2088181
  SimSeconds    = 2999361
  CpuSeconds    = 13.375
  SpeedUp       = 224251

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=0.999450 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000168

Scale Factors:
  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF       Int=0.61  Spi=0.52  SP=1.54  Hit=2.96  Crit=1.15  Haste=0.33  Lag=2.84

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 7:16 PM

I'm not at all familiar with simcraft. How do you model cast time in relation to lag (especially near 1.0s)?

• Adoriele · 06/18/09, 7:22 PM

Your scale factors look a little wonky. Int, Spi, and Spellpower all take unexpected jumps, Haste drops more than I'd expect (though it could really be that bad), and latency takes a nosedive. That last one makes no sense whatsoever, as you're casting more wraths than before. Decreasing your latency should have a more positive impact, not a less positive one.

Starfox · 06/18/09, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I'm not at all familiar with simcraft. How do you model cast time in relation to lag (especially near 1.0s)?

Lag increases the time when the player is ready() again, different values for channeled spells, normal spells and after a gcd.
Channel lag: ~0.250s
Queue lag: ~0.075s
GCD lag: ~0.150s

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 7:29 PM

Ok. So the effective cast time of an instant is max(1.5/HasteFactor,1.0) + GCDLag, and the effective cast time of a Wrath is max(1.5/HasteFactor,1.0) + QueueLag? What happens Wrath hits 1.0, does the cast time jump back up to 1.0 + GCDLag?

Starfox · 06/18/09, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Ok. So the effective cast time of an instant is max(1.5/HasteFactor,1.0) + GCDLag, and the effective cast time of a Wrath is max(1.5/HasteFactor,1.0) + QueueLag? What happens Wrath hits 1.0, does the cast time jump back up to 1.0 + GCDLag?

I think, but I have to ask nate about a more detailed explenation on the lag model.

Xerophyte · 06/18/09, 7:37 PM

You're also getting uptimes as

         73.2% : eclipse_starfire              
         66.4% : eclipse_wrath

This seems a bit implausible unless I am entirely misunderstanding what uptime means in this context. They should sum to less than 100%.

anyakaschala · 06/18/09, 7:40 PM

For me, as least my thoughts, DoTs become almost trivial dps, dps to be sure, but if eclipse is up 80%+ of the time, then that will and should be our primary concern. IS and MF's only time to be casted/refreshed would only be in that 20% time or fights during the dps downtime when you are moving.

I don't really have many thoughts about Owlkin Frenzy, in terms of raiding. I don't think it procs enough regardless to be an effective mana option.

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by anyakaschala

For me, as least my thoughts, DoTs become almost trivial dps, dps to be sure, but if eclipse is up 80%+ of the time, then that will and should be our primary concern. IS and MF's only time to be casted/refreshed would only be in that 20% time or fights during the dps downtime when you are moving.

I wouldn't assume that; IS and MF still beat the DPET of Eclipsed spells. But there's the same tricky issue of whether to refresh during Eclipse or sacrifice some uptime to only refresh outside of Eclipse.

• Arawethion · 06/18/09, 7:44 PM

Also, what DoT refreshing rules do you use for the simcraft model?

I'm going to work up some WC stuff when I get home. But I'd like to have more firm understanding of the effective Wrath cast time when the listed cast time is very near 1.0.

• Adoriele · 06/18/09, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Xerophyte

You're also getting uptimes as

         73.2% : eclipse_starfire              
         66.4% : eclipse_wrath

This seems a bit implausible unless I am entirely misunderstanding what uptime means in this context. They should sum to less than 100%.

For Simcraft, uptime is defined as the percentage of time where you could have used that buff, and you had it. I.E. you don't care about eclipse when you're casting Moonfire. It's a kind of wonky way of measuring, but these values mean that ~73% of Starfires cast were affected by Eclipse, and ~66% of Wraths.

◊ Lord BEEF · 06/18/09, 8:50 PM

Spirit being better than haste would pretty dramatically effect gearing.

Starfox · 06/18/09, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

For Simcraft, uptime is defined as the percentage of time where you could have used that buff, and you had it. I.E. you don't care about eclipse when you're casting Moonfire. It's a kind of wonky way of measuring, but these values mean that ~73% of Starfires cast were affected by Eclipse, and ~66% of Wraths.

Yea, but there are plans for an options to switch to, for me somewhat useless, time-based uptimes.

Regarding scale factors:

  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF       Int=0.51  Spi=0.48  SP=1.40  Hit=2.59  Crit=0.90  Haste=0.90  Lag=4.29
  Druid_T8_58_00_13_W        Int=0.57  Spi=0.47  SP=1.44  Hit=2.67  Crit=1.09  Haste=0.52  Lag=5.50

The only thing that seems weird is that haste drops below the value for a solar rotation.

Xerophyte · 06/18/09, 10:06 PM

Ah. The uptime values make more sense then and I can see how that metric would be useful. It feels a bit strange to use the term uptime for it, I guess.

Originally Posted by Starfox

The only thing that seems weird is that haste drops below the value for a solar rotation.

This isn't necessarily wrong. You're casting proportionally more Wraths than in a current Solar with SF filler rotation and the post-Lunar dot refresh you'll commonly do in 3.2 has a much higher probability of being under NG than the equivalent dot refresh at the end of the Eclipse cooldown in a Solar rotation. It's possible that outweighs the addition of a Lunar eclipse to the proceedings, though I agree that it seems weird.

• Arawethion · 06/19/09, 1:48 AM

Nah, that's far too low to make any sense.

Taelrien · 06/19/09, 4:57 AM

[removed my message because I miss read the eclipse change]