Altiris

They can't both be up at the same time. You won't proc lunar eclipse during solar buff, or vice versa.

Eclipse: The Starfire and Wrath buffs from this talent are now on separate 30 second. cooldowns. In addition, it is not possible to have both buffs active simultaneously.

So:

W W W ... (lunar proc) SF SF SF ... (solar proc) W W W ... ... refreshing DoTs at the optimal times.

 

dedmonwakeen

Overloading the term "uptime" was an exceptionally poor idea on my part. The reason I like the stat is because it allows people to use it in their own "hand calculations" more effectively than a pure time-based uptime.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

danlock2

I think this sounds correct, I don't play a boomkin, but in my mind this rotation seems to be the way to go. The question is, if one has the SF and Wrath idols, is it worth it to use a GCD to swap them? The loss of a GCD for the trade off of more damage seems interesting.

 

Orin

I personally am not a fan of constantly swapping items and wasting GCD's. I doubt Blizzard intends for Moonkins to have to do this to deliver solid damage output, and if it came down to the point where we were doing it, they would *fix* it again.

Considering the changes to the Wrath and SF rotations in 3.2, and depending on how the numbers work out for Moonfire and Insect Swarm uptime, there are these Idols to also consider.

[Idol of the Crying Wind]
[Furious Gladiator's Idol of Steadfastness]

 

Ranghar

1 GCD is moreless half of your SF cast. You are sacrificing several thousand of damage and gain some minor bonus for 10-20 casts. Definitely not worth it.

 

• Adoriele

You don't lose a GCD if you swap them while casting an instant. With Eclipse lasting 15s, which is approximately the length of both DoTs if you don't have Glyph of SF, this means you can run a rotation where you only recast DoTs while Eclipse is down, swap the idol at that point, and always have the right one on for Eclipse. You'd have the wrong one on during the non-Eclipse phases, but that's not as much of an issue.

 

• Arawethion

It's actually an interesting idea. Hoping to get updates into WC format over the weekend, and should be easy to evaluate then.

Running into a conceptual issue: how to correctly model DPS during the Eclipse proc phases? For example, in the pre-Solar phase of the new 3.2 cycle, you're chaincasting Starfires, but the phase ends as soon as one crits. The mean number of casts before this occurs is 1/(crit chance). But is it correct to model the DPS of that portion of the phase as being equivalent to chain non-crit Starfires (which is very low)? Or is that bad statistics--assuming the non-crit nature in advance? I've somehow worked myself into confusion over this.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

dukes

I've just been thinking about the implications of pushback on the higher Wrath usage. I think the Glyph of Wrath and Natures Focus need evaluating.

Napkinmath:

Using scenarios of 40%, 50% and 60% casting time spent on wrath (i.e. 24, 30 and 36 seconds per minute), with 0 pushback resistance and 50% pushback resistance (imp conc aura, or the glyph, or 2/3 natures focus):

• If you are interrupted once per wrath cast (think Mimiron P2, a really nasty situation), and a wrath cast is 1.2 seconds base (assuming 1 second + latency), it costs you:
  • 24 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 10 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 5 seconds
  • 30 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 12.5 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 6.25 seconds
  • 36 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 15 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 7.5 seconds
  
  Just thinking about the estimate of time lost total per minute with 50% pushback resistance, there's a huge amount of value in using the wrath glyph (or having 2/3 natures focus) to get 100% pushback resistance in this situation, even with the lower estimate of 40% cast time spent on Wrath.
  
  
  
• If you are interrupted once per every third wrath cast (more realistic situation in most fights with some AoE damage), and a wrath cast is 1.2 seconds base (assuming 1 second + latency), it costs you:
  • 24 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 3.33 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 1.66 seconds
  • 30 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 4.16 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 2.08 seconds
  • 36 seconds:
    • 0 pushback resistance: 5 seconds
    • 50% pushback resistance: 2.5 seconds

Even in a situation where you only cast wrath 40% of the time and have 50% initial pushback resistance (imp conc aura), you still lose out on effectively ~1.5 seconds, with this low estimate of only 1 pushback happening every 3.6 seconds. If you estimate it at 1/36th of the time, it's around 180 dps from doing 6k dps.

It might be the case that for pure min-maxing, keeping a stack of wrath glyphs to swap in for something else is the best solution in fights with high AoE damage. Before I start thinking that I should use the wrath glyph as one of my standard glyphs it would be nice if someone could check through sims/etc though, if it's possible to model this simply. I'm also assuming that for the purposes of this, switching talents in to nature's focus probably isn't worth it compared to switching a glyph, where glyphs are worth around 75-100 dps each, while 2 talent points would be worth more than that.


For those looking at the values of haste/crit and their worth now, think about how Bloodlust, Aura of Celerity, Starlight and Shadow Crash affect these two functions. It's pretty much always been the case that 'burn' phases are done under Bloodlust because of the DPS required, so haste instantly loses a large proportion of it's value now that Wrath is a larger proportion of total damage done, even when under 400 haste. On other fights (hodir, vezax and thorim) haste also loses out in favour of crit virtually the whole time because of fight specific buffs. The changes in stat values from Starfoxes sim runs make a lot of sense.

 

Celdhyrean

If you are getting hit 1 per 3.6s or even more, then you should have OF in your template, you'd end up with ~50% uptime. Probably much better than getting an anti-pushback glyph.
That being said, outside of hardmodes which i haven't tackled yet, i don't see that as a realistic damage income. 1 per 10s is already high as far as normal modes go.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Well presumably you'd just drop 2 points in furor to pick up 2/3 nature's focus. I don't think 4% intellect would be that severe a hit to dps.



The low value of haste on wrath is pretty frustrating. I wish they would change starlight wrath to increase wrath damage instead of reduce its cast time, or something similar.

 

SkagasmAddict

There's an interesting Sigil-twisting macro on the DK forums, which works pretty well for my DK, that might be of use for idol swapping depending on what the rotation ends up looking like. Attaching the Wrath idol to IS and the Starfire idol to MF could be exceptionally efficient. There might be an issue with DoT uptime in regards to having to alternate your DoT order before every Eclipse, but if your DoTs tend to run out in the second half of your Eclipses it might not be a problem at all.

If you elect to use it, the Starfire glyph will likely increase the complexity a bit.

 

• Arawethion

That's what I was imagining--a fixed DoT referesh sequence tied to the Idols. I'm actually kind of sick of modeling continuous DoT refreshing anyway . . .

Note that you don't exactly want it bound to all your IS's and MF's, since an Idol swap incurs an unhasted GCD. So you will need two extra buttons or a clever macro scheme.

I wonder if there's a clever way to work in the IS Idol.

e: the macros in the DK thread seem to indicate that item swapping is unprotected. So we can pretty much do whatever we want with macros.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Tempestra

If you refresh Moonfire before IS, could you theoretically swap to your IS idol on your MF GCD, and then on your IS GCD swap to whatever idol you'll need for the next rotation?

Seems like we'll have a lot of idol swapping macros =)

 

Zifrelm

I've had 3/3 Nature's Focus for some time now. I sacrifice 1 point of Furor and don't take Imp. MotW at all. Pretty much every resto druid will have 2/2 Imp. MotW since Furor does nothing for them, and because there are a good number of resto druids in my raids (plus a feral who also has Imp. MotW), I see no reason to take it.

 

• Adoriele

You mean besides the 1% to all stats that it gives you?

 

GlassShadow

I see a couple of options based from this talent tree idea (needing the last 2 talent points to be placed as per discussion).
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Effectively all I have taken away is 1 in Nature's Reach since in fights I am neither range deprieved or threat capped (except on maybe general at the start) and 2 points out of Intensity since I don't need the mana regen (and I have 2 points in Moonglow instead of Improved Moonfire due to being with the glyph of moonfire it adds little dmg increase, 0.5%?).

The talent build above therefore meets all the main criteria of a normal raiding build, but it allows me to put 2 points into either Owlkin Frenzy or 2 points into Nature's Focus. Further I could even drop 2 points from Furor and put it into Nature's Focus whilst having the others in Owlkin Frenzy just for the proc buff.

I guess it comes down to really which is the better one to get with the talents. But what this build does show is that you can use the talets to get pushback resistence for wrath without losing any effective DPS

 

Videl

It'll be a bit higher than that, since as you say the last (or more likely, second to last) one will always be a crit. So that phase will be a chain of non-crit starfires, followed by one crit followed by one which may or may not crit based on your crit chance. I don't see any reason why it would be less dps on average than just spamming starfire during the eclipse cooldown on live.

Just writing out my thinking and seeing if it goes anywhere...
The phase will last 1/(crit chance) +1 starfire casts. It'll contain 1 + (crit chance) criticals. So you'll get the equivalent of starfire spam dps with a crit chance of (1 + crit chance)/(1/crit chance + 1). As far as I can tell that expression simplifies to just (crit chance), so as far as I can tell the dps of your solar proccing phase will just be starfire spam dps, which is pretty believable since that's what you're doing. I would expect lunar proccing to be in the same boat.


If you were going without the starfire glyph so you'd know you want to recast both your dots at the same time at the end of each eclipse, you could set up your macros to equip the wrath idol when you cast IS, and equip the starfire idol when you cast MF, then you'd have to get in the cast of refreshing IS then MF when you're proccing lunar next, and refreshing MF then IS when you're proccing solar next.

 

Zifrelm

One percent of the attributes I care about would mean about 11-12 intellect and 6 spirit, fully raid buffed. Compared to my wraths not getting pushed back? That's chump change.

 

• Arawethion

Yeah, iMotW is total filler, it's a terrible DPS talent.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

• Arawethion

Prelimary look at the 3.2 rotation with no DoT's, as compared to a basic 3.1 Lunar rotation with no DoT's, is showing a 9% DPS increase, and crit becoming stronger than haste* (with both a bit under spellpower still).

*In the assumption that haste is wasted for NG'ed Wraths, but effective for all other spells.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

danlock2

Maybe on the second one, but I still think that [Idol of the Shooting Star], is the only way to go. The wrath one isn't great atm, but [Idol of Steadfast Renewal] might become something to swap to to get that extra boost out of your rotation. If it could ever be figured out to switch idols in combat, on instant spells.

I must say that I think that [Idol of the Crying Wind] is pretty bad, its more than likely about half the DPS of better idol.

 

• Arawethion

Here are some new spreadsheet updates. First 3.2 model, and also the 3.1 sheet updated to reflect a few modeling changes, for better comparison.

Eclipse rotation is the obvious one, with 4 phases: pre-Lunar (W), Lunar (SF), pre-Solar (SF), Solar (W). Only one 3.2 DoT rotation in for now: Cast IS at the beginning of both pre-Lunar and pre-Solar. Cast MF at beginning of pre-Solar only if using Glyph of SF, otherwise cast MF at beginning of both pre-Solar and pre-Lunar.

This leads to pretty low DoT uptime actually. I'll try to add a constant DoT refreshing model soon, which will probably bring up the top end in the new model a bit.

No attempt yet at Idol swapping, mana (too lazy), or 4T8.

It's looking like at least a 5% increase in the basic stationary-target rotation. Idol of SF is still a bit stronger, although the Idol slot isn't nearly as efficient as before (as expected). Crit is looks stronger than Haste, although they're pretty close.

Attached Files

	WrathCalcs Hamlet 090619 3.1.xls (217.5 KB, 145 views)
	WrathCalcs Hamlet 090619 3.2.xls (197.0 KB, 427 views)

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Poromu

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

IMotW is definately better than Furor as a dps talent. 1% int/spirit VS 2% int when we get a better conversion of spirit into spell power than int into spell power and crit. As well as the obvious 1% more stam too to help with more difficult/survival orientated encounters. To me dropping the 2 points from Furor will make much more sense than the 2 from iMotW.

I mean, they're both terrible DPS talents but to get to Master Shapeshifter you'll have 5 points to throw around after the 2/3 Nature's Focus. (Assuming you have ImpConc.)


I'm curious how we would go about macro'ing the idol swap into DoT's.

/cast insect swarm
/use idol of steadfast renewal

/cast moonfire
/use idol of the shooting star

This way if you're going into your Solar Eclipse you'd cast IS second in DoT applications and if you're going into Lunar Eclipse you'd cast MF second to get the idol you wanted on. Although my gut tells me the extention of the GCD will really hamper idol swappings usefulness unless moving.



Another thing i've been wondering, with the new Eclipse rotation when would be the best time to cast Starfall, seems like right as you proc your Solar Eclipse, to maximize NG uptime, or perhaps after your Lunar Eclipse ends so you can keep those SF cast times low to proc the Solar Eclipse.

Finally when would be the best time to use treants (heroism aside), inbetween eclipse procs or directly at the start of one? It seems like you lose less doing things at the start of your Solar Eclipse. I mean yes optimally you probably don't want to do anything inside eclipse time but nuke, but it seems unlikely since a Eclipse'd SF will probably proc your Solar Eclipse as soon as Lunar runs out.

 

• Arawethion

IMotW is a touch worse than Furor--1 Spi gives less DPS than 1 Int, and we have less Spi than Int, so 1% is less of a stat gain. Both are trivial amounts of DPS though, if Wrath pushback is ever important.

I'll check on the Idol swapping soon (e: not today, it's kind of a pain to work into WC). But as I said above, remember you won't want to macro them into every DoT, you'll need to make two new buttons to have handy in your rotation.

Will check on the Eclipse thing too, but it's almost certainly best to cast extra stuff outside of Eclipse and extend the cycle a bit.

e: yeah, slightly less DPS loss to just delay Eclipse. The difference isn't huge though, again indicating that constant DoT refreshing is probably the way to go.

Best time to cast Starfall is probably the end of Lunar.

e: on the other hand, DoT's are worth less than they used to be, because there's no time to cast time without interfering with the Eclipse cycle.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Zifrelm

How well does constantly refreshing dots play with idol-switching, though? Am I correct in my interpretation of the last couple pages that immediately after an instant cast is the best time to change them? If you're refreshing every time they tick off, but you also want to switch idols between eclipses, then you'd be casting a dot when there might be a good amount of time left on it...

I guess the question becomes, what brings more benefit - having the proper idol during an eclipse, or maintaining ~100% dot uptime?

Personally, so I'm so far a fan of the refreshing-dots-in-between-eclipses rotation, swapping idols as you refresh them.