Moonkin Raiding - Page 64

klüger · 04/21/09, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by Feritas

Talking about making BiS list right now is totaly useless since we dont know which stats to value most at the moment so lets get that math done first. Which eclipse are we going to run in full ulduar gear? As i see it now we are looking to get very close at the crit cap if we are continuing with lunar.

5 moonkin aura 5 scorch 3 totem of wrath 3 IFF 3 imp IS about 30 crit in ulduar gear 45 crit from bonus, which sums up to about 94% crit chance on starfire. I don't remember the crit cap, but if i'm right it is somewhere along 70-80% which means we should either 1 we should avoid crit tottaly on gear 2 we should forget about 2set t8 3 we should start gearing for solar eclipses.

since i kinda failed math it would be awesome if someone could take a look on the numbers and estimate which eclipse we should be proccing with the different types of gear stacking either haste or crit.

Further confounding the problem could be that while you may gain 15% crit on lunar eclipse, you lose 5% to PROC lunar eclipse. Gearing mainly for haste has already brought me to a point where I am uncomfortable with the amount of casts it usually takes to proc lunar.

Lord BEEF · 04/21/09, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kuruk

Looking at your AOE spec, I'm interested to see you having chosen to drop Improved Insect Swarm. 3% crit on Starfire (the spell we use the most) and 3% dmg on Wrath at first sight look to me as being stronger than Celestial Focus's 3% Haste but I don't remember seeing any hard math on that so that's just a personal impression.

If you manage 100% uptime on your dots (which is suboptimal since you don't want to refresh during eclipse), then improved insect swarm is something like a 2.5% improvement on ~80% of your damage. 2% damage improvement overall, if again you have 100% uptime and it's purely a stand and nuke fight. In fights with movement, aoe, or other gimmicks you're going to have less than 80% of your damage be from nukes, which makes it worth an even lower amount than 2%.

Celestial focus' haste multiplies with all other sources, so it comes very close to a 3% improvement regardless of what you're casting.

thedopefishlives · 04/21/09, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

I just want to have an idea of what my eventual BiS (or close to it) set will be so I know what to pass on to accrue brownie points with the cloth casters.

I find it interesting that Rawr optimizes a set and the highest dps rotation is starfire spam with insect swarm. I'm not saying that it's necessarily wrong, but it has me suspicious. It's around 6600 dps raid buffed on a 5 minute fight. Are other Rawr users seeing this. Note that I added a bunch of items from Wowhead that didn't appear to be in the latest version of Rawr, including several of the T8 items.

I was previously getting some similarly weird results in Rawr, but when I changed my glyph setup to IS/MF/Starfall, it resulted in the more "expected" IS/MF/SF rotation. I think that without the right glyph and talent setup, Moonfire is being calculated not to be worth casting anymore.

Cube · 04/21/09, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Sunfyre

Even without the insane amount of hit granted from tier 8, I can easily itemize to be well over the hit cap. Is it even remotely worth bumping up my hit another 2% or 4% to drop points in balance of power and place them somewhere else? I'm not sure if the gain is worth the loss of other itemized stats to go for the hit.

If you don't have to gem for the hit, the only gear you have available gives you 12/14% hit, and it gives you the best overall spellpower/crit/haste, I don't see any issues with putting the points somewhere else.

However, it would probably be in your best interest to drop hit for other stats, given that the 2 talent points in Balance of Power are worth quite a few item points that could be used for other stats.

Humbaba · 04/21/09, 11:15 AM

Am I crazy or was there a datamined Starfire idol from Ulduar? All I'm seeing is [Idol of the Crying Wind] which is 374 sp to insect swarm.

I'm continuing to play around with Rawr and I'm adding in items from MMO-C when I see things that look like they might be better than what's equipped. So far the best gearset is putting me at 6867 dps over 5 minutes with a MF/SF rotation. Presumably this is MF->W to eclipse ->SF with SF filler? Glyphs are MF/SFire/SFall. I also unchecked 100% MF. What does that do? If it's checked it shows 6779 with SF spam. That would seem counter intuitive since 100% MF uptime would be impossible with straight SF spam. I'm using the standard 58/0/13 spec.

• Hamlet · 04/21/09, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

Am I crazy or was there a datamined Starfire idol from Ulduar? All I'm seeing is [Idol of the Crying Wind] which is 374 sp to insect swarm.

I'm continuing to play around with Rawr and I'm adding in items from MMO-C when I see things that look like they might be better than what's equipped. So far the best gearset is putting me at 6867 dps over 5 minutes with a MF/SF rotation. Presumably this is MF->W to eclipse ->SF with SF filler? Glyphs are MF/SFire/SFall. I also unchecked 100% MF. What does that do? If it's checked it shows 6779 with SF spam. That would seem counter intuitive since 100% MF uptime would be impossible with straight SF spam. I'm using the standard 57/0/14 spec.

Is Rawr recommending you not use IS at all? That seems rather odd. Have you tried WC?

"100% MF" is probably a 2-MF rotation, instead of a 1-MF rotation.

thedopefishlives · 04/21/09, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

Am I crazy or was there a datamined Starfire idol from Ulduar? All I'm seeing is [Idol of the Crying Wind] which is 374 sp to insect swarm.

I'm continuing to play around with Rawr and I'm adding in items from MMO-C when I see things that look like they might be better than what's equipped. So far the best gearset is putting me at 6867 dps over 5 minutes with a MF/SF rotation. Presumably this is MF->W to eclipse ->SF with SF filler? Glyphs are MF/SFire/SFall. I also unchecked 100% MF. What does that do? If it's checked it shows 6779 with SF spam. That would seem counter intuitive since 100% MF uptime would be impossible with straight SF spam. I'm using the standard 57/0/14 spec.

About the idol: The [Idol of the Crying Wind] didn't get its stats until later in the PTR. Before then, it was shown as having the same stats as [Idol of the Shooting Star], as a placeholder.

About Rawr: All calculations in Rawr are taken from Adoriele's WrathCalcs. The 100% MF uptime option means that you cast MF twice per Eclipse rotation, which ensures the dot is always ticking but causes dot clips. Unchecking the option means the dot ticks its full duration, but will fall off. MF/SF with a Lunar eclipse and 100% MF uptime is W to Eclipse -> SF during Eclipse -> SF during cooldown, refreshing MF twice during the rotation. If you checked the 100% MF uptime and it's showing your optimal rotation as SF spam, then it means MF is not even worth casting, which tells me either your spec is messed up or you haven't set up the buffs correctly.

Edit to the above poster: Depending on the situation, Rawr may or may not see IS as worth casting. In particular, it almost sounds as if he has Bloodlust checked, which does NOT compute the average value of the Bloodlust over the fight but actually shows you what you should be doing while under Bloodlust.

Alerian · 04/21/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

I had zero problems with pushback on XT. Your tanks pick up whatever can interrupt you, you ae the scrapbots, right? And kolo adds, since when do they interrupt you? They should be standing 30ish yards away from you in a nice cluster.

Ah, sorry I wasn't more clear. I keep it to avoid pushback from XT's Tantrum and Kolo's Shockwave while finishing up the last adds. Marginal benefit since they're usually dead or close to dead on Tantrum and Shockwave has a long CD, but it was enough (dps aside) to cement the decision.

Humbaba · 04/21/09, 12:01 PM

I let it optimize everything this time, talents included. It's showing MF/SF breaking 7k with no IS.

I've attached my XML file if you want to take a look at the buffs to make sure I'm not doing something incorrectly. I'm not checking the box for focus magic since I never get it.

• Adoriele · 04/21/09, 1:10 PM

100% MF is indeed a misnomer, in that yes, it does mean a 2-MF cycle. This only guarantees 100% MF uptime if you have the SF glyph and proc Eclipse in less than 9 seconds, which on average you should.

As for how it's modeled, I'd have to go back and check. It's nowhere near as stringent as it probably could be, but it gets close. The problem with trying to force it to be more stringent is that I would have to assume things about the rotation (i.e. what order the DoTs are cast in), and be unable to support variations. It's nice to have everyone agree in this thread that you should go MF-IS-IS-MF, but that doesn't mean that everyone who uses the sheet will know to do that. The differences between variations of 2-MF cycles are a lot smaller than the variations between a 1-MF and a 2-MF, so I'm much more comfortable with modeling the general case, and allowing for personal discrepancies. There's more than enough shortcuts being taken in the entire model to warrant just putting a "This is for the general case" stamp on it.

[edit] It's also possible that without the IS glyph, it can be entirely dropped from the rotation, especially if 2T7 is also dropped. With 4T8 being so lackluster, I'm not at all surprised that it's not enough to force IS either.

hquest · 04/21/09, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Little experience with 25-man so far, we spent 3 hours on Razorscale without a kill. I had no real issues, but we never got past a second ground phase, so it's not really a good judge. 10-man, though, I was running dry on XT every attempt, once we started getting things down. Kill, I needed 2 innervates and a pot, and was still OOM at the end (though just barely). Not real news, since 10-mans are always on the low end of mana, but it surprised me just how bad it was. I'll see how it goes tonight, but I'm already anticipating putting a couple extra points in mana talents, though that might just be Moonglow since the opportunity cost is very low.

I did both 10 and 25man Razorscale, killing them at both times. I found it a quite simple strategy, mana was really no issue at all -- assuming we had at least one replenish class available. My Innervate was sent to a priest more as a safeguard than a need. No mana regen talents, pots or whatsoever.

Back on track, I am not seeing any T8 stats or bonus valuable at all. Unless complementary items (bracers, belt, boots, rings, trinkets, weapons) and extras (enchants/gems) are way too gorgeous, guess I will be raiding with my T7 for a long time. IS Idol damage is cute, got about 250dps/tick while using it, but still do not yet make it better than SF one.

thedopefishlives · 04/21/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

[edit] It's also possible that without the IS glyph, it can be entirely dropped from the rotation, especially if 2T7 is also dropped. With 4T8 being so lackluster, I'm not at all surprised that it's not enough to force IS either.

You know, I just realized that this probably explains everything. With no glyph and no 2T7 bonus, IS completely unboosted is probably not powerful enough to be cast. With a 2-MF rotation and no IS, it's likely that the dots are being clipped too close, which makes MF just plain not worth casting.

Edit to the above poster: The IS idol is just not worth it. It is strictly inferior in all practical cases to the Starfire idol (see previously in this thread for the math). Also, the 2T8 set bonus is extremely powerful and worth picking up - shoulders and legs appear to be the two best pieces so far. The 4T8 set bonus is calculated in Rawr as being ~80 DPS, which is probably a very generous assessment, and so far all permutations I've run have not picked up the 4-set bonus.

• Hamlet · 04/21/09, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

It's nice to have everyone agree in this thread that you should go MF-IS-IS-MF

Did I miss a discussion of the clipping issues that I mentioned in the Glyphs thread?

Are you clipping 1 tick each of the first IS and MF as you do this? (and if so, is Nature's Splendor still worth it?)

• Adoriele · 04/21/09, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Did I miss a discussion of the clipping issues that I mentioned in the Glyphs thread?

Are you clipping 1 tick each of the first IS and MF as you do this? (and if so, is Nature's Splendor still worth it?)

Hahahah, poor words on my part. Perhaps "It would be nice to have...". I honestly haven't looked too carefully at how often I clip. IS gets clipped more than MF, though, but a wrath in between gives a nice buffer if the final ticks don't line up nicely. If it crits, you've already cast MF, your next spell can't be queued, so it gives a great amount of time to notice that Eclipse has or hasn't procced, and if it has you get a nice full-duration MF to go along with it.

[edit]

Originally Posted by hquest

I did both 10 and 25man Razorscale, killing them at both times. I found it a quite simple strategy, mana was really no issue at all -- assuming we had at least one replenish class available. My Innervate was sent to a priest more as a safeguard than a need. No mana regen talents, pots or whatsoever.

I had almost exactly the opposite experience. Any time we made a decent attempt on Razor25 (killed after an hour or so), I needed at least my own, if not also another druid's innervate, and a pot. We didn't get far enough on XT for it to matter, but I could tell that I would need the same. I know I had Wis up, and I think we had enough replen, though I should double-check. Not sure about JoW either. It was enough, though, that last night I respecced for more mana. Which made today's announcement especially irritating.

Humbaba · 04/21/09, 3:20 PM

As a summary, the optimizer gives me this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft*

This gear:

Head - Collar of the Wyrmhunter (Runed Dragonseye)
Neck - Pendant of Fiery Havoc
Shoulder - Shoulder of Dormant Energies (Runed Dragonseye)
Back - Drape of Mortal Downfall (Veiled)
Chest - Set (Veiled)
Wrist - Unsullied Cuffs
Gloves - Handwraps of the Vigilant
Waist - Sash of Ancient Power (Runed Dragonseye)
Legs - Set
Boots - Boots of Fiery Resolution (Veiled) (Tuskarr's)
Finger - Manifested Pain, Pyrelight Circle
Trinket - IDS, Flare of the Heavens
Idol - Idol of the Shooting Star
Weapon - Staff of Endless Winter

Runed Scarlet Ruby except where noted.

These glyphs:
Moonfire
Starfall Insect Swarm
Starfire

This rotation:
MF/SF IS/MF/SF (Lunar Eclipse)

And 7015 6055 dps.**

Unless the 4T8 bonus changes, I think we're looking at 1 MF, 0 IS for the rotation.

Obviously the gear will change as more hard mode stuff becomes known.

*That spec isn't going to work for me in practice, but it's worth noting here since it pushes you over 7k. A standard 58/0/13 costs 80 dps but gains pushback protection for wrath, threat reduction / extra range, better AoE via Gale Winds and extra mana from Omen of Clarity.

**Reran the numbers without bloodlust selected, per discussion later in the thread.