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Old 04/21/09, 3:34 PM   #961
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Humbaba View Post
*That spec isn't going to work for me in practice, but it's worth noting here since it pushes you over 7k. A standard 58/0/13 costs 80 dps but gains pushback protection for wrath, threat reduction / extra range, better AoE via Gale Winds and extra mana from Omen of Clarity.
This is the real issue with the optimizer. It doesn't have any way to account for utility talents such as Reach, Typhoon, and GW. Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE. I'd like to see the optimizer allow mandatory talent settings, then optimize the remaining points. Care would need to be taken to ensure possible builds (so you can't mark both Starfall and NS as mandatory, etc.), but it would allow you to set up more realistic builds.

That, or allow the optimizer to only select between certain pre-generated specs, rather than optimizing by points.

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Old 04/21/09, 3:38 PM   #962
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Baelgun
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
This is the real issue with the optimizer. It doesn't have any way to account for utility talents such as Reach, Typhoon, and GW. Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE. I'd like to see the optimizer allow mandatory talent settings, then optimize the remaining points. Care would need to be taken to ensure possible builds (so you can't mark both Starfall and NS as mandatory, etc.), but it would allow you to set up more realistic builds.

That, or allow the optimizer to only select between certain pre-generated specs, rather than optimizing by points.
You can already compare specs. You have to build and save them yourself, but there's a "Talent Spec" comparison chart that shows which one does more DPS.

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Old 04/21/09, 3:41 PM   #963
 Adoriele
Happy October 19th!
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
You can already compare specs. You have to build and save them yourself, but there's a "Talent Spec" comparison chart that shows which one does more DPS.
Yes, but it's not available to the optimizer. Thus I can't compare a spec without BoP but with a metric fuckton of hit on my gear to a normal spec, nor can I optimize that without potentially losing Typhoon or Reach in the process.

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Old 04/21/09, 5:13 PM   #964
Humbaba
Mr. Sandman
 
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Humbalo
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
With my current gear Rawr is saying MF/SF in a 1 MF rotation with MF/SFall/SFire glyphs is higher than the traditional IS/MF/SF by about 80 dps.

Full Ulduar upgrades are about 900 dps over what I should get right now.

EDIT:
IS/MF/SF wins currently by about 140 dps. I wasn't properly handling bloodlust in rawr. Ulduar gear represents about a 900 dps upgrade still.

Last edited by Humbaba : 04/22/09 at 3:11 PM.

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Old 04/21/09, 5:16 PM   #965
Kuruk
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
Also, the 2T8 set bonus is extremely powerful and worth picking up - shoulders and legs appear to be the two best pieces so far.
I guess determining which two set pieces to pick depends on whether you have any items lying around that can balance your hit at 264. What is really annoying is that there none of them stand out as being significant gear upgrades.

As for the usefulness of 2pT8 bonus, isn't it a rather small DPS increase on Lunar Eclipse? When fully raidbuffed and with Scorch applied your Starfire crit chance during Eclipse is extremely high already, isn't it?

This bonus seems much stronger for Solar Eclipse. Could it possibly make it the stronger of the two (out of Bloodlust only, of course)?

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Old 04/21/09, 5:23 PM   #966
Humbaba
Mr. Sandman
 
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Humbalo
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Kuruk View Post
Could it possibly make it the stronger of the two (out of Bloodlust only, of course)?
Rawr says "no" by about 500 dps.

e: that's with a lust in the fight somewhere. With lust out of the picture SF still wins but only by about 40 dps.

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Old 04/21/09, 5:49 PM   #967
 Adoriele
Happy October 19th!
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Humbaba View Post
Rawr says "no" by about 500 dps.

e: that's with a lust in the fight somewhere. With lust out of the picture SF still wins but only by about 40 dps.
Um, you know that the Lust option on Rawr doesn't add a Lust to the fight, it assumes the entire fight is under Lust conditions, right? I.E. checking Lust gives you a flat 30% haste.

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Old 04/21/09, 8:29 PM   #968
Latas
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uther
Not to mention that during lust you can just switch to lunar eclipse for that period of time while relying on solar eclipse for the unlusted period.

On a different note, while I've heard that the 4t8 is horribly weak given 5% proc rate and the possible 3 min cooldown, has anyone calculated the value of 4t8 if say it had the 5% proc rate but no ICD?

Last edited by Latas : 04/21/09 at 9:47 PM.

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Old 04/21/09, 10:51 PM   #969
milliamp
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Zangarmarsh
I am trying to decide between 3 maces: [Haunting Call], [Stormtip], and [Wraith Strike]

The stuff I have read says Wraith Strike is 2nd best in slot for me, but most of it is pre-ulduar.

I have 226 unbuffed hit without a mace. My druid is here: The World of Warcraft Armory

Rawr lists the total DPS gain of the 3 as the following:

Haunting Call: 664.98
Stormtip: 658.41
Wrath Strike: 633.44

I guess Rawr likes Haunting Call till I get closer to hit cap?

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Old 04/21/09, 11:23 PM   #970
faarque
Glass Joe
 
Faarque
Night Elf Druid
 
Khaz'goroth
My opinion

Hey guys, i've been following Elitist jerks for a while now, and though i may as well sign up and submit what i can.

I'd just like to point out, i've taken 2 points in dreamstate at the moment, and 1 in Omen of clarity. I have no mana issues in Uld at this point. We have downed 5 boss's on heroic so far, only on easy mode tho.
The only time ive ever Innervated myself is after stuffing up, and recieving a Battle rez.

Besides that, i have innervate macro'd to a mage that is usually present.

Now, because of no mana issues, i am thinking of taking one point out of dreamstate (or genesis) and spending back into starfall and force of nature.

I should mention, i am a litttle carefull for not dotting up trash that is going to be killed even close to when MF or IS will run out. I rather just wrath/SF spam, it is much more mana efficient with JOW on the target, and since they can crit.

Regards,
Faarque.

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Old 04/22/09, 1:56 AM   #971
Zifrelm
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Feritas View Post
5 moonkin aura 5 scorch 3 totem of wrath 3 IFF 3 imp IS about 30 crit in ulduar gear 45 crit from bonus, which sums up to about 94% crit chance on starfire. I don't remember the crit cap, but if i'm right it is somewhere along 70-80% which means we should either 1 we should avoid crit tottaly on gear 2 we should forget about 2set t8 3 we should start gearing for solar eclipses.
What crit cap are you talking about? What would it be other than 100%?

I'm somewhat intrigued by the possibilities of going for solar eclipses (when out of heroism/bloodlust). Currently my crit to haste ratio is somewhat overly skewed towards crit, 746 to 366. With Nature's Grace, my wraths are are almost exactly 1.0 second casts, so there's not really any clipping issue.

With any multiplier over a base amount of DPS, such as haste and crit, there are ever-diminishing returns on each additional percentage point of multiplication. With already high crit numbers, an extra 45% crit isn't nearly a 45% increase, but the 45% wrath bonus is multiplicative with everything else (as far as I know).

The question is, assuming you are NOT clipping the global cooldown, might wrath ever be the better spell to base your rotation around? It has always seemed to have a higher raw DPCT than starfire... My main concerns are the larger effects of latency and reaction time.

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Old 04/22/09, 3:51 AM   #972
DrizztDoUrden
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Azshara (EU)
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Yes, the spec gives the highest DPS, but you'd be an aggro hog (not sure if that's a huge issue) with no range, and poor AoE.
At least for Hodir (Easy Mode) and the first 1-2 Shadow Crashs in the General Vezax fight, threat is an issue

Also at least in the Vezax fight it makes a huge difference to have the range to be in a Shadow Crash. It can be also of importance in fights like Freya when you move under the mushrooms, Hodir to be in the buff spots and so on.


In general threat can also be an issue, as we tend to use Herolust quite early after a pull, and if you just procced your first Lunar Eclipse when Herolust kicks in, you can build up quite some threat really fast.

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Old 04/22/09, 4:18 AM   #973
rightclick
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Originally Posted by faarque View Post
Hey guys, i've been following Elitist jerks for a while now, and though i may as well sign up and submit what i can.

I'd just like to point out, i've taken 2 points in dreamstate at the moment, and 1 in Omen of clarity. I have no mana issues in Uld at this point. We have downed 5 boss's on heroic so far, only on easy mode tho.
The only time ive ever Innervated myself is after stuffing up, and recieving a Battle rez.

Besides that, i have innervate macro'd to a mage that is usually present.

Now, because of no mana issues, i am thinking of taking one point out of dreamstate (or genesis) and spending back into starfall and force of nature.

I should mention, i am a litttle carefull for not dotting up trash that is going to be killed even close to when MF or IS will run out. I rather just wrath/SF spam, it is much more mana efficient with JOW on the target, and since they can crit.

Regards,
Faarque.

As Intensity is quite a bit better than dreamstate, dropping both points from Dreamstate and getting just one in Intensity should yield good results in terms of mana regen, and free one talent point.

Innervate on a mage? Maybe i got it wrong, but isn't the mage BiS list ignoring spirit gear as much as possible?

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Old 04/22/09, 5:17 AM   #974
antwon87
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Korgath
Couple questions about stats after the patch. I remember seeing that there's a soft cap for haste at about 400 because that's where wraths will start clipping the gcd. Was that just for a solar eclipse rotation or should we shoot for around 400 haste for a lunar rotation now as well? I guess that leads into, lunar is still better correct?

Also, has anyone come up with relative values of sp, crit, and haste (assuming they have changed)? I got [Intensity] tonight just to see if I could juggle some hit and make it an upgrade. Looks like I can get down to 6 hit over cap, I gain 32 sp, 63 crit (1.55%), but lose 155 haste (4.72%). I'd love to use the shiny new staff but that just doesn't look worth it at all... Am I right that it's not worth it?

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Old 04/22/09, 5:24 AM   #975
noctrnal
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by antwon87 View Post
I got [Intensity] tonight just to see if I could juggle some hit and make it an upgrade. Looks like I can get down to 6 hit over cap, I gain 32 sp, 63 crit (1.55%), but lose 155 haste (4.72%). I'd love to use the shiny new staff but that just doesn't look worth it at all... Am I right that it's not worth it?
I also got Intensity tonight and started swapping around gear to see if I could make it worthwhile. I managed to swap out and gain over 1% crit, some 22 spell power, another 10-15 hit which was worthless to me, but my haste remained the same. Your question doesn't make sense as it's entirely dependent upon which items you are switching out to work in the extra hit from the staff. In my case, I think it was definitely worth it. According to Rawr, the switchout for me gave me 80dps.

I had a few questions about SFall though. I thought it might be best to utilize it during the ICD.

I’m still debating where to put SFall. Here’s my two options:
(1) MF, IS, SFall, SFx4, IS, MF
(2) MF, IS, SFx4, IS, MF, SFall

As SF crits more than W, I’m leaning towards option (2). Contrary to what some of you guys have stated, I feel that SFall WILL assist in proc’n eclipse faster (not in less casts, just faster cuz NG might be proc’d more often).

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