The T9 4-piece bonus is worse than the T7 4-piece.
GG.
Reading is hard, apparently. Almost every single DPS 4pc bonus is 5% crit to <ability>. Blizzard aren't that dense, these are just placeholders. 2pc may also be a placeholder, since it's something that comes quite obviously, but I wouldn't mind seeing it be real (wonder if it would proc Moonkin Form regen). Idol might be pretty decent as well if, again, it's not a placeholder.
Reading is hard, apparently. Almost every single DPS 4pc bonus is 5% crit to <ability>. Blizzard aren't that dense, these are just placeholders. 2pc may also be a placeholder, since it's something that comes quite obviously, but I wouldn't mind seeing it be real (wonder if it would proc Moonkin Form regen). Idol might be pretty decent as well if, again, it's not a placeholder.
I modified WrathCalcs (WrathCalcs Hamlet 090519.xls version) for General Vezax hard mode to account for the +100% magic damage, +100% increased casting speed, -75% mana costs, and lack of mana regen to try to see what the best rotation for that fight might be. The changes I made aren't very clean, but I think they work.
The changes I made are as follows (that I can remember, anyway):
Character Sheet:
- Reduced Replenishment uptime to 0%
- Reduced JoW uptime to 0%
- Innervate changed to None
- Potion changed to None
Rotation and DPS:
- Added new column: Damage Before OOM (to see what rotation would do the most damage over the course of the fight)
Basic Calcs:
- Damage Multiplier: multiplied by an additional 2X
- Total haste: multiplied by an additional 2X
- Moonkin Form Proc: reduced to 0%
Starfire Calcs, Moonfire Calcs, Wrath Calcs, Insect Swarm Calcs, and Cooldown Calcs:
- Multiplied mana cost by 0.25 and rounded upward to reflect the 75% decreased mana costs
Provided that my modifications work correctly, a few observations can be made (at least with my gear): Lunar Eclipse deals the most damage for the amount of mana available compared to Solar, but Solar Eclipse will make the mana last longer. Even though Starfire has better DPM, Wrath clips the GCD so, despite the higher DPM, it just can't be cast any faster (thus the lower damage of Solar vs Lunar). Additionally, even though Moonfire isn't very efficient, including it in the rotation rather than leaving it out results in about 1-2% more damage.
Last edited by The Inevitable : 06/24/09 at 4:15 AM.
so with the change to the 4pc t8, is it a must now?
im trying to figure out what pieces to use so im just wondering
i thought just from looking at it that going (tier pieces) hat, shoulders, gloves legs would be my best bet, leaving the chest open for the umbral brute, but after doing some sifting i think my best bet is going to be (tier) legs gloves chest shoulders, wyrm hat (off razorscale)
may be wrong but thats what i thought the biggest pickup was if i had to use 4 t8
I modified WrathCalcs (WrathCalcs Hamlet 090519.xls version) for General Vezax to account for the +100% magic damage, +100% increased casting speed, -75% mana costs, and lack of mana regen to try to see what the best rotation for that fight might be. The changes I made aren't very clean, but I think they work.
Mmm, not sure mana was up to date in 0519. I think I've cleaned some of it up by 0621, at least in the 3.2 version and the single-Moonfire cycle of the 3.1 version, but honestly I haven't been paying too much attention to mana.
I'm not sure why you need to bring the cycle calcs to bear on Vezax, though. I already included a column of average damage for each spell divided by mana cost; that's really all the information you need.
Mmm, not sure mana was up to date in 0519. I think I've cleaned some of it up by 0621, at least in the 3.2 version and the single-Moonfire cycle of the 3.1 version, but honestly I haven't been paying too much attention to mana.
I'm not sure why you need to bring the cycle calcs to bear on Vezax, though. I already included a column of average damage for each spell divided by mana cost; that's really all the information you need.
Sorry, I just noticed that I failed to mention that I modified it for General Vezax hard mode not normal mode, where there are no Saronite clouds to replenish mana (I have since edited my post to clarify). Since on hard mode, the best spec and rotation is not the one that deals the most dps but, rather, the one that does the most damage after exhausting all mana. Previously in the thread, there have been suggestions to use a Solar rotation for hard mode Vezax and to drop Moonfire out of the rotation due to it being much less mana efficient than other spells; since Shadow Crash increases cast times by 100%, I was skeptical about Solar Eclipse being better than Lunar, so I set out to find out if those suggestions were correct in terms of damage done. I also wanted to find out how sustainable each rotation is without mana regen but with the -75% mana costs, and the time to OOM.
I chose the 090519 version because I thought it was the version previous to 090621 which seemed like the only changes were to model Idol swapping, and I didn't really want to make things more complicated for myself. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the 090619 version at the time, so I'll try to modify one of the two (or both) and see if my results change.
I know it's a bit soon to say, but Im a bit disappointed in the t9 4pc set bonus as described on mmo-champion.com. Im pretty sure t8 4pc is better. I'm sure it will change however.
Looking over the stats on the new tier though, it looks like Blizz finally knows how to itemize a Boomkin. Also, I like how they're making plans to make our dots crit. It's about time IMO.
I know it's a bit soon to say, but Im a bit disappointed in the t9 4pc set bonus as described on mmo-champion.com. Im pretty sure t8 4pc is better. I'm sure it will change however.
Looking over the stats on the new tier though, it looks like Blizz finally knows how to itemize a Boomkin. Also, I like how they're making plans to make our dots crit. It's about time IMO.
Well we are actually still getting the short end of the stick. If you start by looking at the elemental shaman set its of course perfectly itemized for us like usual with no pieces with spirit on them. Now here is where the changes start coming into effect. Next we have the mage and shadow priest sets each with only 2 pieces with spirit on them. Now you would expect us to match the rest of the dps casters as spirit was pushed to be more useful to all of us other than elemental shamans. Alas this is not the case as along with warlocks we have the most spirit pieces in our tier at 3 pieces with spirit on them. So while we have one less spirit piece than we do in T8 we are still on the bottom of the totem pole, only difference is warlocks are joining us.
Maybe if we express our distaste earlier in the PTR cycle this time we might get a favorable reaction, but this is very optimistic thinking.
Spirit is a good stat already for us, and t9 stats seem ok to me, there is not a single piece of which id say: damn its crap, though gloves look weakest of all
On a side note i really do hope that 2t9 bonus will compete with 4t8
After all, we do want to use new gear, blizz wants us to do so as well, so we need to have a reason :)
So, with high crit and 2t9 bonus, a good idea will be to use legs + shoulders/chest t8, and head +chest/shoulders t9,
Since on hard mode, the best spec and rotation is not the one that deals the most dps but, rather, the one that does the most damage after exhausting all mana.
But this is only true for phase 1 right? The point must be to find a rotation that will produce the most damage in p1 while leaving you with enough mana to be able to burn the entire p2. Doing more damage over the entire course of the fight is surely less important than finishing p2 as fast as possible?
meaning 30 spellpower from spirit costs the same as 90 spellpower from spellpower.
This is no way/shape/form makes spirit a good stat.
That said, spirit got better (with the 15->30% buff) and spirit isn't worthless for us, but compared to _not_ spirit (in the shape of spellpower, haste, hit or crit), it is crap.
meaning 30 spellpower from spirit costs the same as 90 spellpower from spellpower.
This is no way/shape/form makes spirit a good stat.
That said, spirit got better (with the 15->30% buff) and spirit isn't worthless for us, but compared to _not_ spirit (in the shape of spellpower, haste, hit or crit), it is crap.
in pure dps terms, you are ofc right, but bare in mind were getting double eclipse in 3.2 which should increase our dps dramaticly, and so putting us higher in dps ladder
an assumption can be made that with new eclipse changes and items with little/no spirit we would get nerfed in some way exactly as ferals are being nerfed atm
I'm guessing 2T9 is of the form "your DoTs can now crit", meaning the chance for the moonfire tick to crit is the caster's critical strike chance. With moonfire being 10% of your DPS and 50% crit chance (WARNING: NAPKIN) we're talking about 5% boost to DPS, which is pretty nice. We'll do actual math on this when more information comes out, but it will probably be competitive with 4T8 as a bonus.
Most DPSers have 4T9 bonuses which say "your main nuke now has 5% more crit". For moonkins Starfire is listed, but of course it should be Starfire and Wrath, which is exactly the 4T7 bonus. I'm guessing Blizzard doesn't want to just recycle the set bonus, and they're probably also not going to release a set bonus which is directly inferior to a similar one two tiers down (set bonuses don't actually need to get stronger, but weakening an old bonus is weird). This is likely a placeholder that will be changed.
Another thing to remember is that T9 has massively higher ilevel than T8. The 25-player non-heroic version is ilevel 245 and the heroic version is ilevel 258. T8 is ilevel 226. The higher stats alone will make T9 very attractive. 2T8 might still be competitive with the double eclipse cycle, but I'm fairly certain 4T8 is going to be a thing of the past.
After being out of commission for a while, i just barely got my 4pc bonus for T8.5. Seems to me like the 7% crit I just lost is definitely NOT worth the 40 sp, 15% extra eclipse damage, and very low-proc insta-Starfires I've gained. i mean it sounds all dandy, but out of 8 IS I only got 3 procs. I don't know how the 15% eclipse stuff will work out, but I don't know if it can compensate for 7% crit. That's huge. Any thoughts?
I've read through the forum some, couldn't exactly find a straight answer. Just curious for your thoughts on t8.5.
Atleast there are two pieces of T9 without Spirit so it makes it an easy choice for gearing up, especially as one of those pieces isn't the legs which will give us access to 3 tier pieces that are itemised well. I can't really see anyone dropping 2xT8, unless they nerf it somehow, with the incoming changes to Eclipse.
They also have about 231 hit on their T9 as well, severely limiting their options if they take all of it. 149 of it they *have* to take (the two pieces without spirit).
At the moment, the better set up seems to be an MF/IS/SF glyphs, with the new MF Idol and a 2t8 + 2t9, keeping MF as close too 100% uptime as possible. I'm not sure if IS will be refreshed constantly or just pre-Solar, I'm not good at calc's and stuff. I also wonder if the MF crits will proc NG, which will further increase the uptime.
Balance of Power Increases your chance to hit with all spells and reduces the damage taken by all spells by 3/6%. (Old - Reduced chance you'll be hit by spells 2/4%)
Has anyone had a chance to test whether this is just a tooltip error? I can't believe that blizzard would have just gifted us another 2% hit and it must be either a bug or a tooltip that was hastily changed without thinking.
Sorry, I just noticed that I failed to mention that I modified it for General Vezax hard mode not normal mode, where there are no Saronite clouds to replenish mana (I have since edited my post to clarify). Since on hard mode, the best spec and rotation is not the one that deals the most dps but, rather, the one that does the most damage after exhausting all mana. Previously in the thread, there have been suggestions to use a Solar rotation for hard mode Vezax and to drop Moonfire out of the rotation due to it being much less mana efficient than other spells; since Shadow Crash increases cast times by 100%, I was skeptical about Solar Eclipse being better than Lunar, so I set out to find out if those suggestions were correct in terms of damage done. I also wanted to find out how sustainable each rotation is without mana regen but with the -75% mana costs, and the time to OOM.
I chose the 090519 version because I thought it was the version previous to 090621 which seemed like the only changes were to model Idol swapping, and I didn't really want to make things more complicated for myself. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the 090619 version at the time, so I'll try to modify one of the two (or both) and see if my results change.
Make sure you're thinking through what you're doing before you spend a lot of time tinkering with the spreadsheet. I'd assumed you were talking about Vezax hardmode if you were going to all the trouble to think about this fight. If, as you say, you're trying maximize the total damage out of your mana bar, then all that matters is DPM. Cast time, clipping, and any other timing issues are irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Solar "lasts longer"; you can make anything last longer by standing around doing nothing for a bit. It's completely obvious, for example, that you wouldn't cast Moonfire (except on Clearcasts), you don't need to model the rotation to find this out.
The only nontrivial issue is Solar vs. Lunar. Eclipsed Starfires give significantly better DPM than Eclipsed Wraths, but uneclipsed Starfires also have better DPM than uneclipsed Wraths. But the issue is the frequent interruption to dodge crashes making the very swingy Lunar rotation impractical. Interruptions due to movement can detract from Eclipse time but not from pre-Eclipse time (this is an irritation with our class on every fight, actually), so frequent movement works heavily against a rotation that requires you to invest in a full Eclipse to get a minor overall benefit.
During Animus, where you might want to trade a bit of efficiency for DPS, I'm not sure anything changes--Solar is more consistent that Lunar in terms of both DPS and DPM. Also, your guild will certainly have Bloodlust up, during which you'd want to just spam Starfire.
Originally Posted by Shinagami091
I know it's a bit soon to say, but Im a bit disappointed in the t9 4pc set bonus as described on mmo-champion.com. Im pretty sure t8 4pc is better. I'm sure it will change however.
Looking over the stats on the new tier though, it looks like Blizz finally knows how to itemize a Boomkin. Also, I like how they're making plans to make our dots crit. It's about time IMO.
If the 4T9 is not placeholder, than yes, it's terrible and can't replace 2T8 even if it comes with a significant stat bump.
The bigger issue is that even if this 4T9 is a placeholder, whatever they put in still probably won't be strong enough to replace the 2T8. The 2T8 is quite overpowered for a set bonus once the new 3.2 Eclipse rotation is active. The honest game-balancer part of me would say it needs to be nerfed. But the problem there is that the DPS increase we're all looking forward to in 3.2 relies so much on the 2T8--it's about half as large without it.
The set stats look pretty good. Only issue is the huge amount of hit lumped onto only 2 pieces; might make the initial upgrade path pretty awkward. Remember that crit will be equal to or slightly better than haste now, so the shoulders aren't that bad. The most important thing will still be stacking spellpower.
Originally Posted by Moonkin Kai
At the moment, the better set up seems to be an MF/IS/SF glyphs, with the new MF Idol and a 2t8 + 2t9, keeping MF as close too 100% uptime as possible. I'm not sure if IS will be refreshed constantly or just pre-Solar, I'm not good at calc's and stuff. I also wonder if the MF crits will proc NG, which will further increase the uptime.
Saving comments on the new MF Idol for when we see the proc rate. But it need in the ballpark of 50% uptime to beat out the Starfire one.
I don't know why you'd expect to stop casting IS. It scales every well (1.4 coefficient in a GCD before debuffs).
MF ticks proccing NG is a good point; that will be pretty nice. Pain to model though.
Originally Posted by Korhaug
A few things about the set bonuses:
I'm guessing 2T9 is of the form "your DoTs can now crit", meaning the chance for the moonfire tick to crit is the caster's critical strike chance. With moonfire being 10% of your DPS and 50% crit chance (WARNING: NAPKIN) we're talking about 5% boost to DPS, which is pretty nice. We'll do actual math on this when more information comes out, but it will probably be competitive with 4T8 as a bonus.
Do we know whether it would be affected by Vengeance? How has this worked with other classes' DoTs?
Originally Posted by Mynd
Has anyone had a chance to test whether this is just a tooltip error? I can't believe that blizzard would have just gifted us another 2% hit and it must be either a bug or a tooltip that was hastily changed without thinking.
I think it is safe to assume that iMF and Vengeance both apply to periodic crits on Moonfire. They couldn't have made both our set bonuses crap, and with only 50% crits, this one would be.
I was able to log on PTR and test Balance of Power. It is still 4%. Had 8.49% hit from gear, 3% from iFF and 2/2 BoP and got a miss after a few casts. If it were 6%, that wouldn't be possible.
Edit: Also, Eclipse isn't buffed on the current PTR. It is functioning as it does on live.
I was able to log on PTR and test Balance of Power. It is still 4%. Had 8.49% hit from gear, 3% from iFF and 2/2 BoP and got a miss after a few casts. If it were 6%, that wouldn't be possible.
Edit: Also, Eclipse isn't buffed on the current PTR. It is functioning as it does on live.
Edit2: Lightweave Embroidery now 295 SP proc.
oooh, totally forgot about the profession buffs - how much more sp are your dragons eyes giving, or has that not yet been changed? (i ask as i wait to be able to log onto the ptr myself - womp womp)
If we take into account that 4t8 doesn't scale well with haste, with better gear 2t9 might give better results.
I'm going to guess it's significantly better anyway. If Vengeance affects 2T9, you're looking a 5% DPS increase on a napkin (more if it procs Nature's Grace). Nobody (afaik) has attached an exact number to the 4T8, probably because its main attraction is the added multi-target/movement convenience and not the on-paper single-target benefit, but expecting 5% from it is pretty steep.
06/23/09, 7:02 PM
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