Moonkin Raiding - Page 66

Moonkin Kai · 04/22/09, 5:56 AM

The point is, SFall should be used while Eclipse is on ICD in order to minimize the DPS loss and maximise NG up-time. By using SFall while Eclipse is off CD, as soon as it procs (Eclipse that is), you're gonna have NG up alot (this ofcourse holds more value for Lunar Eclipse than Solar Eclipse) and effectively waste alot of possible NG that could arise due to SFall.

On a side note I find the SFall glyph hard to get used to. I tried using the combination but I just couldn't make it work. At the moment, I'm using a MF/IS/SF as in 3.0.9 and I'm doing fine on Damage and DPS normally coming second or first. Would it be worth dropping SF, using a 2MF rotation and just sticking with it or just keeping to my current style?

Also, any more knowledge on 4t8. A person in my guild, who I must admit, is very knowledgable, seems to think 3 minutes is wrong and a 45 sec ICD like most "procs" e.g from trinkets, etc. makes more sense. If this was the case, and we have a 5% proc rate with a 45 sec ICD, would it make 4t8 worth it? Or would it still lag behind 2t8 + other BiS gear?

Korhaug · 04/22/09, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by antwon87

I got [Intensity] tonight just to see if I could juggle some hit and make it an upgrade. Looks like I can get down to 6 hit over cap, I gain 32 sp, 63 crit (1.55%), but lose 155 haste (4.72%). I'd love to use the shiny new staff but that just doesn't look worth it at all... Am I right that it's not worth it?

Gaining 32 SP and 63 crit at the cost of 155 haste is an overall loss.

As Noctrnal said, what is important is your overall gear solution. Each item is just once piece you can use, which may give you more or less benefit depending on the other pieces you have available. Keep the staff around, there's a fair chance you'll get to use it yet.

rightclick · 04/22/09, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by Korhaug

Gaining 32 SP and 63 crit at the cost of 155 haste is an overall loss.

As Noctrnal said, what is important is your overall gear solution. Each item is just once piece you can use, which may give you more or less benefit depending on the other pieces you have available. Keep the staff around, there's a fair chance you'll get to use it yet.

Does anyone find it disturbing that there's no Staff in Ulduar without Spirit on it? I mean, I like [Intensity]but something itemized more like [Greatstaff of the Nexus] would be nicer.

Latas · 04/22/09, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by rightclick

Innervate on a mage? Maybe i got it wrong, but isn't the mage BiS list ignoring spirit gear as much as possible?

As far as the innervate for a mage, when we were pre 3.1 and I never used the innervate myself and the healers never asked for it one of our arcane mages would ask for it so he could abuse the arcane blast buff without worrying about mana as much.

Humbaba · 04/22/09, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Um, you know that the Lust option on Rawr doesn't add a Lust to the fight, it assumes the entire fight is under Lust conditions, right? I.E. checking Lust gives you a flat 30% haste.

Well, based on dopefish saying this:

In particular, it almost sounds as if he has Bloodlust checked, which does NOT compute the average value of the Bloodlust over the fight but actually shows you what you should be doing while under Bloodlust.

I took that too mean it takes an X min fight and applies bloodlust to 30s of it. Is this a poor understanding?

Does Rawr currently handle the Starfall glyph properly? Checking and unchecking it seems to have no effect on dps.

(I'll see about getting into the source code later today to see if I can answer some of these questions myself.)

Eilt · 04/22/09, 8:53 AM

Yea Humbaba, that is a poor understanding. If you check the bloodlust box it just assumes you are under the effect so you can determine how to handle that portion of the fight. Unchecking the box will give you what to do under normal circumstances.

thedopefishlives · 04/22/09, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Eilt

Yea Humbaba, that is a poor understanding. If you check the bloodlust box it just assumes you are under the effect so you can determine how to handle that portion of the fight. Unchecking the box will give you what to do under normal circumstances.

This is exactly correct. Also, the Starfall glyph is modeled, but the options have to be set properly in order to see a DPS increase from it. Rawr calculates the DPS of Starfall based on the number of casts which occur during a fight; if you have it set such that adding the Starfall glyph does not give you an extra cast during the fight's duration, it will not add any DPS to your display. If this is provably not the case, I'll look at it.

Erdluf · 04/22/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

Does Rawr currently handle the Starfall glyph properly? Checking and unchecking it seems to have no effect on dps.

My take on how Rawr currently handles Starfall and FoN. This is based on looking at the current source change set 33413, which might have changed since the current release (2.2.0.9).

If you have FoN talented, it is cast at the beginning of the fight and every 3.5 minutes after that (but does full damage as soon as cast, so a 3.5 minute fight gets two full sets of FoN damage, a 3.4 minute fight gets one FoN cast).

If you have Starfall talented, it is cast at the beginning of the fight and every 70s (glyphed) or 100s (not glyphed) after that (again, if cast, does full damage).

They are cast even for simple rotations (like non-eclipse wrath-spam).

It looks to me as if their cast time is effectively zero (no GCD or latency charged against nuke time). That may noticably over-value the Starfall Glyph.

Dopefish has said that in Rawr they also don't cost mana, but he intends to fix that (real soon now).

Latas · 04/22/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

If you have FoN talented, it is cast at the beginning of the fight and every 3.5 minutes after that (but does full damage as soon as cast, so a 3.5 minute fight gets two full sets of FoN damage, a 3.4 minute fight gets one FoN cast).

If you have Starfall talented, it is cast at the beginning of the fight and every 70s (glyphed) or 100s (not glyphed) after that (again, if cast, does full damage).

Actually the cooldown starts right as they are cast, not when they expire.

dukes · 04/22/09, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Latas

Actually the cooldown starts right as they are cast, not when they expire.

My understanding of what he's saying is that in Rawr it's modelled as doing full damage once active for the full 30 seconds, not at the point of use (so his example is correct). The comment is definitely about how Rawr models things though, not about how it works in game.

• Adoriele · 04/22/09, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Latas

Actually the cooldown starts right as they are cast, not when they expire.

While that may be true in game, it may not be how it's modeled in Rawr. It's definitely not how it's modeled in WC, though a large part of that is because I don't take into account fight length yet. I'll probably have to add that in soon, though, it's getting to the point where we have too many things to worry about with regard to large-scale timing.

Humbaba · 04/22/09, 12:44 PM

It did seem odd that checking bloodlust increased dps by 1000 in a 5 minute fight. I've edited my previous post to include the new, lower dps total. The 1 MF MF/SF rotation remains top, but it's much closer to IS/MF/SF.

thedopefishlives · 04/22/09, 12:56 PM

I've made some changes to Rawr.Moonkin to better reflect reality. First of all, Erdluf pointed out, and I fixed, a bug related to DoT scaling and the Starfire glyph/Nature's Splendor. Secondly, I have added mana calculations for treants, Starfall, and Improved Faerie Fire (you must have the buff enabled in order for this to work). Thirdly, I have added in an approximation for lost GCD's due to casting Starfall, treants, and Improved Faerie Fire. Lastly, I fixed the bug you all just pointed out with the number of casts of treants and Starfall, as well as supporting partial casts of these abilities. That is to say, if you specify a fight length of 3 minutes, you will get 1 cast of treants. If you say 3.25 minutes, you will get 1.5 casts of treants. If you specify 5 minutes, you will have 2 casts of treants.

gnoop · 04/22/09, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Eilt

So everyone is pretty much considering two piece t8 and then offset, but which two pieces of t8 (t8.5 technically) should you use?

From this is looks like the legs are an easy choice, you gain in everything (even crit) and lose 59 spirit which is roughly ~9 Spellpower (ignoring regen for now). Now the second piece is going to be tough, the largest stat piece looks to be the chest, however we give up a large amount of crit for that. The t7 shoulders mean we give up a large chunk of hit and haste, but we do gain crit so if you are not in need of hit they seem a good option. However if we are interested in hit, the t8.5 gloves look nice, and come at a cost of 53 crit (~1.15%).

So for hit, legs and gloves, else legs and chest/shoulder?

Thoughts?

Full loot tables aren't in so it's still a tough decision to make. While the T8 shoulders aren't fantastic, there's a great cloth chest available that makes the T8.5 chest look less attractive. At this point, it's just opportunistic looting. If you can use it and it's an upgrade to your gear set as a whole, get it. If it's a bigger upgrade for someone else (3rd best for you vs. best for someone else), it may be best to hold off though there are no certainties in life.

Plus, let's look at this realistically. Some of the gear being touted is cloth and you have to imagine that there will be a fair line of clothies out there looking for those same pieces.

Dudedrood · 04/22/09, 1:47 PM

Hi fellow Moonkins,

i´m close to my first T8 Setbonus and i ´d like to test a new Rotation. (From W->SF to SF->W).

ATM my non-Set Gear (Wrist,Waist,Feet,etc) has a lot of haste but almost no Crit. But i was thinking to sub Haste with Crit to keep the non-eclipse Phases as short as possible. (due to the 100% Proc on a SF Crit).

What do you guys think? Is Crit more Valuable if you change the rotation or should a stay with Haste?