Moonkin Raiding - Page 67

Humbaba · 04/22/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dudedrood

Hi fellow Moonkins,

i´m close to my first T8 Setbonus and i ´d like to test a new Rotation. (From W->SF to SF->W).

ATM my non-Set Gear (Wrist,Waist,Feet,etc) has a lot of haste but almost no Crit. But i was thinking to sub Haste with Crit to keep the non-eclipse Phases as short as possible. (due to the 100% Proc on a SF Crit).

What do you guys think? Is Crit more Valuable if you change the rotation or should a stay with Haste?

So you have 1 piece of t8 and you think a wrath rotation is better now? Have you read the last three pages or spent any time with wrathcalcs or rawr yet? You'll find that all three agree that a SF rotation is superior at any reasonable gear level.

edit: of course, I say this and I go play around with glyphs in rawr and see a Wrath rotation eke ahead by 15 dps in Ulduar gear. So check it for your gear and see what you get.

pukabg · 04/22/09, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

So you have 1 piece of t8 and you think a wrath rotation is better now? Have you read the last three pages or spent any time with wrathcalcs or rawr yet? You'll find that all three agree that a SF rotation is superior at any reasonable gear level.

edit: of course, I say this and I go play around with glyphs in rawr and see a Wrath rotation eke ahead by 15 dps in Ulduar gear. So check it for your gear and see what you get.

You've got to thing about this realistically. A calculation of a 40dps (or even 15 for that matter) edge on rawr/WC assumes perfect rotation and ideal conditions. Taking into account fight mechanics, the two eclipses are going to be seen as nearly identical. You may even see an advantage with solar eclipse just because of the 1s cast time (~400 haste) which allows more mobility than a 2s starfire cast time. Of course solar will always be better during BL/Heroism...

• Adoriele · 04/22/09, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by pukabg

You may even see an advantage with solar eclipse just because of the 1s cast time (~400 haste) which allows more mobility than a 2s starfire cast time.

Which of course will be completely nullified as latency bites you in the ass when you're standing still with any cast times even approaching 1s. Don't kid yourselves here, Lunar Eclipse has everything going for it in stand-and-nuke fights. The delta between Eclipses doesn't substantially change when you move from 30% to 45%.

faarque · 04/22/09, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by rightclick

As Intensity is quite a bit better than dreamstate, dropping both points from Dreamstate and getting just one in Intensity should yield good results in terms of mana regen, and free one talent point.

Innervate on a mage? Maybe i got it wrong, but isn't the mage BiS list ignoring spirit gear as much as possible?

Intensity would probably be better yeah, tho i still dream of a day where moonkin gear doesn't have spirit, just alot of int/crit/haste/sp and a pinch of hit ^^

About the mages, i think all our mages have a crapload of spirit on their gear. I don't know alot about mages, but i notice them rolling on alot of gear with spirit.

• Adoriele · 04/22/09, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by faarque

Intensity would probably be better yeah, tho i still dream of a day where moonkin gear doesn't have spirit, just alot of int/crit/haste/sp and a pinch of hit ^^

No, you don't. You dream of a day where you can use all of the stats on a piece of gear, regardless of their name. The problem with Spirit isn't that it's not good, it's that it's not as good for us as other stats. Unfortunately, Resto druids still very much need Spirit, and it would be a step backward for Blizzard to itemize caster leather without spirit, for the same reasons that it's not a good idea to itemize caster leather with hit. You'd end up needing two full sets of gear able to drop off of bosses, where one would suffice, which leads to loot table bloat, and people cursing when Moonkin leather drops because only one person in the raid can wear it. So, either guilds would end up sharding a lot of excess gear, or the Moonkin leather would be so rare as to be non-existent for a lot of people.

The current situation, where both Trees and Moonkin can use the same gear (ignoring, for the moment, set pieces which allow more tailoring to specific needs), is much more preferable. Guilds aren't disappointed when Moonkin leather drops, and it drops frequently enough that it's not impossible to get. The issue we have now is that we need to get more out of spirit. Intensity is one way, Improved Moonkin another, and if it's not enough to balance us, Blizzard will find another way. They did it with Mages, they can figure out something for us as well.

Zifrelm · 04/23/09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

They did it with Mages, they can figure out something for us as well.

Forgive me if I'm not holding my breath. They won't be doing anything major in 3.1, i.e. the next several months.

In the mean time I have to deal with shitty gear that is a side grade in almost all cases. All leather has spirit, and of the cloth items that have no spirit, ALL of them have hit with the exception of a chest piece I've seen. (Obviously the gear hasn't all be discovered, but a lot of it has and what we've seen so far doesn't bode well.) And most of our tier gear has hit too.

Choosing optimized gear and doing competitive damage is important to me, and it's like Blizzard is intentionally trying to drive me batshit insane.

Numeno · 04/23/09, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by faarque

Intensity would probably be better yeah, tho i still dream of a day where moonkin gear doesn't have spirit, just alot of int/crit/haste/sp and a pinch of hit ^^

About the mages, i think all our mages have a crapload of spirit on their gear. I don't know alot about mages, but i notice them rolling on alot of gear with spirit.

Mages don't want spirit either. BIS gear for mages is anything without spirit on it, although some slots this just isn't possible.

Anastassius · 04/23/09, 4:04 AM

Adoriele, i seem to have bug with squackandawe addon,any feedback? Sry i just got back after a week and it seems it bugs and i get addon fail message for it.

Korhaug · 04/23/09, 8:06 AM

Originally Posted by rightclick

Does anyone find it disturbing that there's no Staff in Ulduar without Spirit on it? I mean, I like [Intensity]but something itemized more like [Greatstaff of the Nexus] would be nicer.

All of the staves and daggers have spirit on them, and all of the maces have MP5 (Source). But really this is just an extension of all the rest of the loot table (caveat: not everything has been discovered, but the trend is clear). Adoriele is right that the correct solution is to make spirit better for us, and Zifrelm is right that this is not likely to happen in the next few months.

What it comes down to in the end, though, is overall scaling. Not everyone has to get the same out of every stat, as long as overall scaling remains on par. Remember when they changed Feral to use rogue gear?

Humbaba · 04/23/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by pukabg

You've got to thing about this realistically. A calculation of a 40dps (or even 15 for that matter) edge on rawr/WC assumes perfect rotation and ideal conditions. Taking into account fight mechanics, the two eclipses are going to be seen as nearly identical. You may even see an advantage with solar eclipse just because of the 1s cast time (~400 haste) which allows more mobility than a 2s starfire cast time. Of course solar will always be better during BL/Heroism...

Well, realistically I don't think it ever makes sense FOR ME to use a wrath based rotation. Mal'Ganis during my raid times is very laggy. 400ms lag is a good night for me. 700+ spikes are common. That said, I've done alt raids on Friday nights where I've seen a steady 130 ms lag and I'm sure other servers (and other people closer to their datacenters) would have better luck with a Wrath rotation. The real issue here is that the spell queuing system doesn't work with anything that takes less than a gcd to cast. If I could queue up wraths that are taking 1s to cast, it might be a different story.

My two main concerns here in (easy mode) Ulduar is whether pure SF, MF/SF or IS/MF/SF is a better overall rotation and what gear I should be stealing from our cloth casters. Unfortunately my confusion on how bloodlust is calculated in Rawr led to me to think that a 1 MF MF/SF rotation was clearly superior. It appears that the "old" IS/MF/SF is still the best and in very good gear with very low latency a IS/MF/W rotation is very, very slightly better. It looks like the top two or three items (or less) in each slot stay fairly consistent regardless of rotation and bloodlust usage.

As far as bloodlust goes, how difficult would it be for the rawr model to calculate any fight with bloodlust checked as having 40 seconds of bloodlust and duration - 40 of non-bloodlust? I've checked out the (nicely commented) soure, but I haven't spent enough time to really understand how it works to be able to say. It looks like it adds the straight 30% bloodlust haste to the cast times (and treant attack speed) for every cast right now.

dukes · 04/23/09, 10:04 AM

Bloodlust is 30% haste and lasts 40 seconds.

rightclick · 04/23/09, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Korhaug

All of the staves and daggers have spirit on them, and all of the maces have MP5 (Source). But really this is just an extension of all the rest of the loot table (caveat: not everything has been discovered, but the trend is clear). Adoriele is right that the correct solution is to make spirit better for us, and Zifrelm is right that this is not likely to happen in the next few months.

What it comes down to in the end, though, is overall scaling. Not everyone has to get the same out of every stat, as long as overall scaling remains on par. Remember when they changed Feral to use rogue gear?

Well..we should all hope for some not yet discovered items. Making spirit important for us would mean either increasing the coeficient that goes to SP, or just comming up with something new in our already bloated talent tree.

By the way, sharing gear with rogues really was a necessary wack on the head. Reducing armor and stamina on the other hand was really uncalled for.

Dahlya · 04/23/09, 11:17 AM

Is anyone else noticing that we are scaling badly in comparison to melee because of the movement required on most of the Ulduar fights? It seems that everytime I get a proc it's wasted. I understand that Eclipse Wrath -> Starfire is best in terms of dps for straight out nuke fights but I need to figure out something for the other fights. I hit top dps for Razorscale last week but last night on Thorim (gauntlet group) I was in the last 5 for dps and that was the theme for the night on Kologorn (adds, eyebeams), Auriaya (adds), XT (heart only 30% before switching to adds). Our guild generally looks at all boss fights or defeated bosses when looking at overall dps and I'm getting tired of comparing poorly to melee who can just sit there on the same target for 90% of the fights.

I also took out my aoe talents. We assumed single targeting would be required again but so far haven't found that to be the case. Go go blizz, aoe ftw! (not) At least this trash almost requires CC...

Dudedrood · 04/23/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

So you have 1 piece of t8 and you think a wrath rotation is better now? Have you read the last three pages or spent any time with wrathcalcs or rawr yet? You'll find that all three agree that a SF rotation is superior at any reasonable gear level.

edit: of course, I say this and I go play around with glyphs in rawr and see a Wrath rotation eke ahead by 15 dps in Ulduar gear. So check it for your gear and see what you get.

No, Sry you misunderstood me (maybe due to my bad english).

I want to change my Rota AS SOON AS i get my 2nd T8 Item. I would never consider to switch from Lunar to Solar w/o the second Item. I would favor the Solar Eclipse (if i had 2xT8) because i think i gives you more flexibility and possibilty in the current Ulduar Progress (at least for me).

My non-Set Gear atm [Shackled Cinch]+[Wyrmrest Band]+[Band of Channeled Magic]+[Esteemed Bindings]+[Chain of the Ancient Wyrm].

I get 250 Haste through those Items but Zero Crit.

I could change some of theese to Items with equivalent SP/INT Stats but with Crit instead of Haste. But im not so sure wether this is worth a shot or complete BS. And i dont want to spend a progress Evening experimenting with Gear and Rotation if im completely wrong.

I hope i made myself understandable

• Adoriele · 04/23/09, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zifrelm

Forgive me if I'm not holding my breath. They won't be doing anything major in 3.1, i.e. the next several months.

In the mean time I have to deal with shitty gear that is a side grade in almost all cases. All leather has spirit, and of the cloth items that have no spirit, ALL of them have hit with the exception of a chest piece I've seen. (Obviously the gear hasn't all be discovered, but a lot of it has and what we've seen so far doesn't bode well.) And most of our tier gear has hit too.

Choosing optimized gear and doing competitive damage is important to me, and it's like Blizzard is intentionally trying to drive me batshit insane.

It's perfectly fine for Blizzard to itemize cloth without spirit, or with hit. There are likely going to be 9 people in the raid who can use cloth gear only, plus a few others who may take cloth upgrades even if they're not their native armor class. On the other hand, You should have 4 people in the raid, tops, who need caster leather, and that leather would be fairly poorly itemized for a mail/plate caster (who get very very little benefit from spirit).

Will we do better wearing the 'perfectly' itemized cloth than wearing only leather? Perhaps. But you're going to have to compete with the three cloth classes to do so, and you'll probably be holding your raid back if you do. We're balanced around wearing caster leather, with all that implies. Wearing cloth is akin to a Fury Warrior wearing leather. It's doable, but they're going to find a way to make it unpalatable. It's just not large enough of an issue yet.