Moonkin Raiding - Page 69

FuzzButt · 04/24/09, 12:57 PM

I tried to do a search and came up short on how we value Eye of the Broodmother. I usually do the math on a spare sheet of paper as I am at work and excel is not always handy when I am teaching. With that being said have we come to a point in ranking it compared to dying curse, living flame, Sundial, and IoTD.

I know pre 3.1 Dying Curse and IoTD were the best. Unfortunately I only had Embrace of the spider and Dying curse. I currently have 243 hit rating with Sundial and Embrace equipped. My thoughts were to replace Sundial with Eye of the Broodmother. Not sure how they scale against each other.

Could anyone help me with equations to see the dps differences and uptimes?

thedopefishlives · 04/24/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by FuzzButt

I tried to do a search and came up short on how we value Eye of the Broodmother. I usually do the math on a spare sheet of paper as I am at work and excel is not always handy when I am teaching. With that being said have we come to a point in ranking it compared to dying curse, living flame, Sundial, and IoTD.

I know pre 3.1 Dying Curse and IoTD were the best. Unfortunately I only had Embrace of the spider and Dying curse. I currently have 243 hit rating with Sundial and Embrace equipped. My thoughts were to replace Sundial with Eye of the Broodmother. Not sure how they scale against each other.

Could anyone help me with equations to see the dps differences and uptimes?

When it comes to trinket questions, I suggest Rawr. I spent a lot of time working on a proper trinket derivation that takes into account multiple trinket procs, uptimes, etc. Generally speaking, the trinket list is Illustration > Ulduar-25 trinkets > Embrace/Curse.

Anastassius · 04/24/09, 1:15 PM

So far we have killed 8 bosses on 25 man,but i wasn't in all the fights. Still trying to learn, clip my dots ,innervate me or a healer and br a lot.

So the mana issue isn't steady yet for my final talent spec and still use my standard talent tree.

Haven't checked owlkin frenzy to see where it procs in Ulduar yet and if its worth it.

About itemization i will try to go with 2xT8 and rest BiS with some cloths in it,even if it makes the cloth wearers not so happy.

Head: Collar of Wyrmhunter-cloth
Neck: Fiery Havoc (hard mode all will want it)
Shoulders: T8
Back: Drape of Mortal D. ( hard mode-all will want it also)
Chest: Robes of Brute- might be the BiS item, non T8 set for locks-mages Sp's also
Wrist: broodmother or the cloth with hit rating on
Waste: ancient power-cloth -tailoring or leather one if there is no need of hit
Legs: T8
Feet: Fiery havoc
Rings: Purelight and Frozen loop if hit is needed
Trinkets: Scale of fates and Flare of Heavens ( eye of broodmother from 10 man is also good)
Weapon: Staff of endlesss winter or one new dagger from yogg i think with off hand)
idol the starfire one or the IS once i test it.

Still we need to see which items can be purchased, since some are cloth and others Bis for most caster dpsers. Other than that the stats the new items in Ulduar got will make them better choice and in a while we will drop all previous ones.

Finally i think that we will need to get our crit up to 30% raid buffed since we will loose 10%, 5 from t7 set and 5% from imp.scorch. haste will be set at about 400,maybe even less,depending also on weapon/staff choices,availability.

we will see in some time,cheers.

phoebelia · 04/24/09, 3:44 PM

I got 4 pieces of t8 and thought i'd do some testing of the bonus. I was just casting i.s. on two of the target dummies in ironforge and noticed that occasional the proc would refresh itself. (does this mean there is no internal cd?) Also i noticed that if it procced while i was already casting a starfire the effect would be consumed (thinking this is a bug and it should b working like a warlocks nightfall). I've noticed a lot of people saying only go with 2 pieces of t8 is this because of the believed 2 minute internal cooldown on the proc?

Latas · 04/24/09, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by phoebelia

I got 4 pieces of t8 and thought i'd do some testing of the bonus. I was just casting i.s. on two of the target dummies in ironforge and noticed that occasional the proc would refresh itself. (does this mean there is no internal cd?) Also i noticed that if it procced while i was already casting a starfire the effect would be consumed (thinking this is a bug and it should b working like a warlocks nightfall). I've noticed a lot of people saying only go with 2 pieces of t8 is this because of the believed 2 minute internal cooldown on the proc?

Well even if it doesn't have a cooldown, the only gain you are getting is the difference in cast time between your normal starfire cast time and your GCD. Of course that is just taking into account stand and nuke parts. Someone mentioned either here or on the wow forums (I forget which I've been going over both so much lately) that it is probably their attempt at making us more moving friendly, but if it is an attempt at that its a rather poor one.

Though it is nice to find out that there isn't that ridiculous cooldown on it, and given that it was refreshing itself makes me think it has no ICD. Thanks for doing that testing.

bethor · 04/24/09, 4:14 PM

We currently have a 9 page QQ thread on the DPS forums...

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Moonkin T8 Armor: Spirit and 4pc Bonus

If some of you pro theorycrafters can throw some more informative numbers, maybe we will get a response, until then T7.5 + Wanton FTW

Latas · 04/24/09, 4:49 PM

Well graylo went over the spirit issue on the T8 and there have been many many threads about it for awhile now without a single hint of a response. I don't think the exact math of the 4 piece has been gone over on the forums but the calculations have been mentioned, again with 0 results whatsoever.

spiritryu · 04/24/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by phoebelia

I got 4 pieces of t8 and thought i'd do some testing of the bonus. I was just casting i.s. on two of the target dummies in ironforge and noticed that occasional the proc would refresh itself. (does this mean there is no internal cd?) Also i noticed that if it procced while i was already casting a starfire the effect would be consumed (thinking this is a bug and it should b working like a warlocks nightfall). I've noticed a lot of people saying only go with 2 pieces of t8 is this because of the believed 2 minute internal cooldown on the proc?

Thanks, nice to know it doesn't have a lame 3min cd lol.

Fatso · 04/24/09, 5:54 PM

I got 4 pieces of t8 too, no internal cooldown here. Casting it on much targets and u get a lot of freecasts

I think 3x is = 2 proccs (i did not tested a really long period). So is could be very n1 to dot multitargets while eclipse is on cooldown and got a lot of proggs while Lunar is aktive.

ps: sorry 4 my bad english

Nowell · 04/25/09, 7:30 AM

Been lurking this topic for awhile. With 3.1 I've been playing around with some new builds and rotations. Figured I'd drop in to get some more advice.

I'm looking at a spec like This. I want to take typhoon and gale winds for trash/adds in ulduar, but had a hard time figuring out what to drop. I decided to get rid of intensity, and a point from imp. IS.

My rotation, is something I'm having more trouble on though. When I play around with a IS > MF to eclipse > SF (and using SFall while the ICD is up. But I can't test that on dummies because it hits more than 1 target). With that I was doing about 2800dps, maybe a bit more. When I added in MF at the beginning, and at the end of every eclipse, I lost 100-200 dps.

Edit: Altered my gems a bit for more hit (still about 3% under). Running a rotation like this now: IS>MF to eclipse>SF. I try to keep IS and MF up while eclipse isn't active, and spam SF while it's on ICD. Pulling 2700-2800dps like this unbuffed.

When I have typhoon, where in my rotation should I add it in? Also, with using typhoon and SFall constantly and not having tenacity, has anyone had large mana problems? With my current build Here I noticed in Heroic Naxx tonight that I didn't have to pot or innervate myself (well maybe once or twice, depending on if I had to BR)

Also, I've read a bit on what our hit cap is, but I'm wondering if the 10% from gear already takes into account the 3% from IFF? I assume it's already taking into account the 4% from talents.

Thanks in advance.

Lemzix · 04/25/09, 10:16 AM

I also decided that typhoon would be useful in my raiding spec for trash but also some bosses its nice; i use it for knocking repair bots/bomb bots back on XT to buy some time if i need, also i use it on mimiron to knock the bomb bots away before i root them.

My problem was where to take a point from so i could take typhoon. I decided to take one from intensity which is what my current spec is like. However, intensity being our best mana regen talent next to omen and the fact that its 50% now up from 30% makes me consider getting a point from somewhere else. On many ulduar bosses with aoe such as XT, Razorscale, Freya... i find myself going oom even popping a mana pot rather then a wild magic.

I will continue to try and refine my spec to see what works best for me.

Here it is, i welcome justified criticism contrasting talents i take/dont take
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...3&version=9806

Also, im curious that now i have the t8 2p bonus, would changing from a starfire eclipse proc rotation to a wrath one be worth while? I crit most of the time with starfire and eclipse up now, i dont know if 15% more crit would overshadow 15% more dmg on wrath.

ATheGreat · 04/25/09, 4:27 PM

i would assume that until 15% crit from 2pc pushes you over the 100% crit point on starfire, it would probably still be better than the solar eclipse, but that is definitely just an off the cuff assumption (looking at the way we treated fights like loatheb, etc)

turlockmike · 04/25/09, 4:54 PM

I've been doing target dummy testing on spec with Insect Swarm(with the Glyph and Improved) and without Insect Swarm and I notice almost no difference between the two. Does someone have some reliable numbers to prove or disprove this?

polarbearoughey · 04/25/09, 5:58 PM

I didn't use dummies to find exact numbers, but just from getting the Improved IS talent I noticed more crits happening for me on my eclipsed wrath spams in raids. Maybe it won't increase your dps, but it may certainly increase total damage done and that's arguably more important than dps.

I have started using a rotation like this on single target boss fights, to maximize the benefit of eclipse on wrath.
Faerie Fire(talented) -> Moonfire(glyphed) -> Starfire(glyphed)(until eclipse(wrath) procs) -> Insect Swarm(glyphed) -> Wrath(until eclipse passes) -> Moonfire

I also throw in the Force of Nature treants either before or after the first Moonfire in case there's a chance I can use them again during the fight. With this rotation, I'm not spending half the battle casting Starfire, instead, I normally only need to cast 3 or 4 Starfires until that lovely eclipse procs, giving me increased damage on all wraths, whether or not they crit. When they do crit consecutively during the eclipse, my dps shoots upwards of 4k. I find it much more beneficial, or at least more reliable to take advantage of a 30% increase to damage 100% of the time for 15 seconds, instead of a 60% chance to increase the chance of a critical hit by 30% for 15 seconds.

During Heroism, however, I pop up a Moonfire and spam Starfire no matter where I am in my rotation, even if eclipse is up.

Improved Insect Swarm and Improved Faerie Fire are a godsend to this rotation, giving increased damage on your nukes with the corresponding dot and increased chance to crit. That's why I always have Moonfire and Starfire together, and Insect Swarm and Wrath together. Never should you have both dots up while only spamming one nuke. This is why I have a problem with nuke weaving, as it seems tedious and inefficient, as far as benefiting from our talents goes. They are designed to give us increased damage and crit chance when used together, paired by damage type.

Eclipse is not necessary to do great raid dps, I've met Moonkins who don't have it at all and were welcomed by my guild. I highly enjoy eclipse and making my rotation based around it. It has helped me step up the damage ladder on my recounts. It takes some time to set up though and I find my damage on trash mobs is lacking, where too many other dps classes can put up the big numbers immediately, I'm stuck simply spamming wrath with no faerie fire or insect swarm, because by they time i put ff and my dot up, the mob is at half health and I only get two or three wraths in before its dead.

So what I would like to know is, apart from hurricane, what do you use for trash mobs? Is there any rotation involved? Or is it just mashing one button until the target flops?

Artamier · 04/26/09, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by polarbearoughey

I didn't use dummies to find exact numbers, but just from getting the Improved IS talent I noticed more crits happening for me on my eclipsed wrath spams in raids. Maybe it won't increase your dps, but it may certainly increase total damage done and that's arguably more important than dps.

I have started using a rotation like this on single target boss fights, to maximize the benefit of eclipse on wrath.
Faerie Fire(talented) -> Moonfire(glyphed) -> Starfire(glyphed)(until eclipse(wrath) procs) -> Insect Swarm(glyphed) -> Wrath(until eclipse passes) -> Moonfire

I also throw in the Force of Nature treants either before or after the first Moonfire in case there's a chance I can use them again during the fight. With this rotation, I'm not spending half the battle casting Starfire, instead, I normally only need to cast 3 or 4 Starfires until that lovely eclipse procs, giving me increased damage on all wraths, whether or not they crit. When they do crit consecutively during the eclipse, my dps shoots upwards of 4k. I find it much more beneficial, or at least more reliable to take advantage of a 30% increase to damage 100% of the time for 15 seconds, instead of a 60% chance to increase the chance of a critical hit by 30% for 15 seconds.

During Heroism, however, I pop up a Moonfire and spam Starfire no matter where I am in my rotation, even if eclipse is up.

Improved Insect Swarm and Improved Faerie Fire are a godsend to this rotation, giving increased damage on your nukes with the corresponding dot and increased chance to crit. That's why I always have Moonfire and Starfire together, and Insect Swarm and Wrath together. Never should you have both dots up while only spamming one nuke. This is why I have a problem with nuke weaving, as it seems tedious and inefficient, as far as benefiting from our talents goes. They are designed to give us increased damage and crit chance when used together, paired by damage type.

Eclipse is not necessary to do great raid dps, I've met Moonkins who don't have it at all and were welcomed by my guild. I highly enjoy eclipse and making my rotation based around it. It has helped me step up the damage ladder on my recounts. It takes some time to set up though and I find my damage on trash mobs is lacking, where too many other dps classes can put up the big numbers immediately, I'm stuck simply spamming wrath with no faerie fire or insect swarm, because by they time i put ff and my dot up, the mob is at half health and I only get two or three wraths in before its dead.

So what I would like to know is, apart from hurricane, what do you use for trash mobs? Is there any rotation involved? Or is it just mashing one button until the target flops?

i seem to like your rotation a lot, def increases you over all damage which is what i go for in raids on my druid. whats your spec looking like i want to see if there a difference in your spec that you shoot over 4k dps when wrath spam starts to crit.