Moonkin Raiding - Page 7

erragal · 12/04/08, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Marauding Master

And by Starfall, you mean Starfire.

Your Starfire rotation is bad because you're not optimizing it. Casting IS is a DPS loss and refreshing Moonfire during your SF Eclipse is an even bigger DPS loss. iFF is still worth it, but cast IS only during when you have to move.

IS with just the glyph (Not even including 2-T7) is better DPCT than Starfire at any current gear levels. Moonfire is nearly 50% more DPCT than Starfire if you're using Starfire + Moonfire glyphs. Even if Starfire(Eclipse) put you at 100% crit rate you'd still be losing DPS by not reapplying moonfire during it. The only time you would not reapply moonfire is if you know it won't tick the full 24/27 seconds.

Please don't give out incorrect information that's based on your assumptions rather than the actual math.

Eilt · 12/04/08, 9:56 AM

I honestly thought Ihad read here that refreshing your DoTs during an eclipse was a DPS loss...Will look around and see what posts I can find

erragal · 12/04/08, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Eilt

I honestly thought Ihad read here that refreshing your DoTs during an eclipse was a DPS loss...Will look around and see what posts I can find

Insect Swarm can be depending on when you do it during the eclipse, and which type of eclipse. I don't refresh IS during Starfire Eclipses or while under bloodlust. Not refreshing IS during Eclipse:SF is purely a risk up until SF: Eclipse puts you at 100% crit (At which point it's always the right decision). You're gambling on the RNG before that point. I ran all these numbers manually at 2200 Spell Power, 20% haste 60% SF crit with the Starfire Idol to reflect good gear and give Starfire its' best scenario (Spell Power is actually a bit low favoring Starfire even more). At lower crit/haste levels 2-T7 IS will be a DPS increase even during bloodlust.

IS during wrath eclipse is a bit different because it also improves the wrath damage, but Erdluf has done those numbers at least twice now showing the range where it's a DPS increase. Refreshing moonfire during Eclipse: Wrath should always be a DPS increase.

Moonfire is still higher DPCT even in a bloodlusted 100% crit Starfire situation. That's something most people will probably miss in practice because it's very easy to get caught up in the big fast numbers.

One other observation from live raiding: I don't believe Typhoon is always a DPS increase when you move. In many fights you need only make small position adjustments such that you aren't done with the GCD from casting it by the time you are able to go into a wrath/starfire. Even something as low as waiting .5 seconds in GCD to begin your next cast ends up being a wash with Typhoon in terms of overall damage output.

Erdluf · 12/04/08, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

IS with just the glyph (Not even including 2-T7) is better DPCT than Starfire at any current gear levels. Moonfire is nearly 50% more DPCT than Starfire if you're using Starfire + Moonfire glyphs. Even if Starfire(Eclipse) put you at 100% crit rate you'd still be losing DPS by not reapplying moonfire during it. The only time you would not reapply moonfire is if you know it won't tick the full 24/27 seconds.

The real answer is that it makes sense to refresh DoTs if they fall of early during Eclipse, but if they fall of late in Eclipse you should cast one more nuke.

Suppose you are at the end of Eclipse and your choices are:

SF (eclipse) MF

or

MF sf (non-eclipse)

By casting MF first, Over the course of the fight, you have gained at most one MF tick (possibly not that much). Your expected "loss" is about 30% of a non-crit SF.

If the refresh is earlier in Eclipse, your gain goes up (more MF ticks gained, also more SF getting IIS bonus), but your loss remains the same (still at most one SF pushed out of Eclipse).

Every time I've tried to run tighter numbers (for either Wrath Eclipse or SF eclipse) I see results that say always refresh during the first half of eclipse, never refresh during the last quarter of eclipse (unless you don't have time to finish your nuke anyway) and from 1/2 to 3/4 duration it just doesn't matter very much. The break-even point seems to stay between 4-8s remaining on Eclipse.

• Adoriele · 12/04/08, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Every time I've tried to run tighter numbers (for either Wrath Eclipse or SF eclipse) I see results that say always refresh during the first half of eclipse, never refresh during the last quarter of eclipse (unless you don't have time to finish your nuke anyway) and from 1/2 to 3/4 duration it just doesn't matter very much. The break-even point seems to stay between 4-8s remaining on Eclipse.

I'm going to see what I can do to add a sense of this into WC, but it's pretty spot-on. You're really looking at comparing 1 GCD's worth of the benefit to your nuke (i.e. SFAver*.3*GCD/SFCast) to the number of ticks you would lose by waiting until the end of Eclipse.

erragal · 12/04/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Every time I've tried to run tighter numbers (for either Wrath Eclipse or SF eclipse) I see results that say always refresh during the first half of eclipse, never refresh during the last quarter of eclipse (unless you don't have time to finish your nuke anyway) and from 1/2 to 3/4 duration it just doesn't matter very much. The break-even point seems to stay between 4-8s remaining on Eclipse.

I understand a bit better what you're getting at, but it goes decidedly agains the concept of always utilizing your highest DPCT ability at all times. I had to think of it as sacrificing the single tick of moonfire damage for the 30% crit buff on one Starfire and look at how that changes average Starfire damage to get a better sense of it. Apologies for that. Have to look at it from a different perspective to get that.

• Adoriele · 12/04/08, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

I understand a bit better what you're getting at, but it goes decidedly agains the concept of always utilizing your highest DPCT ability at all times. I had to think of it as sacrificing the single tick of moonfire damage for the 30% crit buff on one Starfire and look at how that changes average Starfire damage to get a better sense of it. Apologies for that. Have to look at it from a different perspective to get that.

It's not necessarily best to use the highest DPET ability at all times, though it comes close. For example, if Starfire is a higher DPET than Wrath (which it usually is), and Eclipse exacerbates that instead of switching it (you generally get more benefit from a SF Eclipse than a Wrath), you want to cast Wrath to proc Eclipse, even though it's a lower DPET.

lissanna · 12/04/08, 4:51 PM

I almost wish we could go back to the days where we just did moonfire/starfire (repeat forever), and had a clearly highest rotation above all others. The way Eclipse works, combined with the GCD clipping problems with wrath, I really don't think there is a highest DPS rotation that stays the highest at all levels of gear. Maybe there is so much variability within a rotation based on the RNG that how you manage the rotation may have a bigger impact than what the rotation is. I mean, what I hear from people as their highest damage rotation seems to change on a daily or weekly basis, that I'm not even sure I trust damage meter reports or theorycrafting anymore.

zinc · 12/04/08, 5:12 PM

i modified the rotations slightly to test

Starfire spam rotation
IS > MF > Wrath (till Eclipse proc) > Starfire (till Eclipse fades) > IS > Wrath (till Eclipse CD back up) > Repeat

Wrath spam rotation
MF > Starfire (till Eclipse proc) > IS > Wrath (till Eclipse fades) > MF > Starfire (till Eclipse CD back up) > Repeat

Starfire spam with Wrath idol

1. 3 Eclipse procs 2668 dps OOM in 2:19
2. 3 Eclipse procs 2540 dps OOM in 2:11
3. 3 Eclipse procs 2928 dps OOM in 2:33

Wrath spam with Starfire idol
1. 3 Eclipse procs 2811 dps OOM in 2:20
2. 2 Eclipse procs 2339 dps OOM in 2:11
3. 3 Eclipse procs 2475 dps OOM in 2:02

For some reason i prefer to proc the starfire eclipse, it must be all the big red numbers that start flying across my screen when it happens. With my current gear it kinda is pointing towards the highest dps rotation too, i guess ill have to do more testing on it

• Adoriele · 12/04/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by lissanna

I almost wish we could go back to the days where we just did moonfire/starfire (repeat forever), and had a clearly highest rotation above all others. The way Eclipse works, combined with the GCD clipping problems with wrath, I really don't think there is a highest DPS rotation that stays the highest at all levels of gear. Maybe there is so much variability within a rotation based on the RNG that how you manage the rotation may have a bigger impact than what the rotation is. I mean, what I hear from people as their highest damage rotation seems to change on a daily or weekly basis, that I'm not even sure I trust damage meter reports or theorycrafting anymore.

Be glad you're not a Mage, where your DPS can swing as much as 1500 without any sort of user control, simply because of Hot Streak. Personally, I like the idea that I can have good and bad days, it keeps it interesting, and it all averages out in the end.

Eilt · 12/05/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by zinc

i modified the rotations slightly to test

Starfire spam rotation
IS > MF > Wrath (till Eclipse proc) > Starfire (till Eclipse fades) > IS > Wrath (till Eclipse CD back up) > Repeat

Zinc, try:

IS > MF > Wrath till eclipse procs > SF till iCD is up > IS > Wrath till eclips procs...

Refresh MF whenever it falls of unless you only have time for one more SF cast and triggering the GCD will make you miss out on the eclips both. (Usually if MF falls off with 4 seconds or less I do not recast it till after the Eclipse).

zinc · 12/05/08, 6:22 PM

with

IS > MF > Wrath till eclipse procs > SF till iCD is up > IS > Wrath till eclips procs...

Starfire idol
1. 3 Eclipse procs 2632 dps OOM in 2:29
2. 3 Eclipse procs 2321 dps OOM in 2:05
3. 2 Eclipse procs 2228 dps OOM in 2:29

Wrath idol
1. 4 Eclipse procs 2770 dps OOM in 2:35
2. 3 Eclipse procs 2331 dps OOM in 2:18
3. 4.5 Eclipse procs 2797 dps OOM in 2:58

most dmg done on all 6 tests was Starfire

Spink · 12/07/08, 9:35 PM

Am I going crazy or did starfall lose almost all of it's bonus from spellpower last night? I went from stars hitting for about 1k to 540-580. Still rank 4 on my bar so not downranked or anything

hoffmand9 · 12/08/08, 1:33 AM

When getting geared enough to drop intensity, is it better to get owlkin or brambles? Obviously brambles will be better for certain fights where there is little AoE damage and owlkin will be nice for the fights where brambles is bad. Overall what are your opinions on brambles vs. owlkin in the current wotlk raids?

Kathbrian · 12/08/08, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by hoffmand9

When getting geared enough to drop intensity, is it better to get owlkin or brambles? Obviously brambles will be better for certain fights where there is little AoE damage and owlkin will be nice for the fights where brambles is bad. Overall what are your opinions on brambles vs. owlkin in the current wotlk raids?

Owlkin may be slightly better.