Moonkin Raiding - Page 71

• Arawethion · 07/11/09, 2:53 AM

New spreadsheet update. I'm just going to start putting them here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t59457-m...dated_3_1_3_a/ .

Reflected some of the thinking I've been doing about haste. There are two delay factors you can specify now, "queue delay" and "instant delay." For practical purposes, assume that the former affects Starfire and the latter affects Wrath and instants.

There is a bit of a kludge right now where instants are given the same average cast time as Wrath (for purposes of estimating the effect of NG). I'll think about a better way to go about it, but I wanted to give some first-order estimate on NG uptime for instants, because it has an important effect on haste scaling (as NG'ed instants are subject to the 400 haste cap). This is actually going to overestimate NG uptime slightly (on the other hand, NG from Starfall isn't taken into account, so who knows), so it might be a bit conservative of the value of haste.

Overall, the value of haste isn't much lower that it was before. Still stronger than crit in 3.1 and slightly weaker in 3.2 (over the 400 mark--below that it's stronger than even spellpower). Have more confidence in these values after this update.

Notes:
--Still no modeling for 4T8
--4T9 assumed to be additive with Moonfury
--Idol of Lunar Fury is a flat 200 crit rating
--3.2 DoT modeling uses a "fixed" rotation where you refresh DoT's after every Eclipse ends. MF is slightly clipped and IS uptime is low.
--Doesn't incorporate any Lunar proc clairvoyance related to watching for the Nature's Grace buff.

Flamedor · 07/11/09, 11:14 AM

It appears that the cool down on Eclipse is now not functioning correctly/has been stealth changed.

I gained a Lunar eclipse twice within a 30 second frame. You can see this in this combat log extract:

15:09:10> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 5265 Nature.(259 Resisted) (Critical)
15:09:11> [Flamedah] gains [Flamedah's] Eclipse.
15:09:12> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 2409 Nature.(533 Resisted)
15:09:13> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 2704 Nature.(266 Resisted)
15:09:14> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 5781 Arcane.
15:09:17> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 11199 Arcane.(Critical)
15:09:19> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 5736 Arcane.
15:09:21> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 9312 Arcane.(1030 Resisted) (Critical)
15:09:23> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 5310 Arcane.(522 Resisted)
15:09:25> [Flamedah's] Starfire hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 11578 Arcane.(Critical)
15:09:26> [Flamedah's] Eclipse fades from [Flamedah].
15:09:30> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 2764 Nature.(272 Resisted)
15:09:31> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 3286 Nature.(323 Resisted)
15:09:32> [Flamedah's] Wrath hits [Heroic Training Dummy] for 7233 Nature.(Critical)
15:09:32> [Flamedah] gains [Flamedah's] Eclipse.

If you note the timings, I gain a Lunar Eclipse twice in 22 seconds, which, from the tooltip should not possible. It's likely this is probably just a bug linked to the recent proc issues, however it could be something else. Not entirely sure how good this would be, given the recent Eclipse change (most likely just on par with it), but it's interesting nonetheless.

Altiris · 07/11/09, 12:00 PM

Probably just a PTR workaround. Eclipse has had a 15 sec CD on the PTR for the last couple of builds.

Europe · 07/11/09, 11:49 PM

Just looking over the coliseum itemization, do my eyes deceive me? I see...spiritless SP leather! and a spiritless caster staff. It seems like Blizz is finally acknowledging that this is the moonkin's preference. But if so, why the hell does our set gear still have so much spirit?

raidingmail · 07/12/09, 4:59 AM

I was looking at some of the new items as well I'm curious if anyone has taken the time to sit down and break the new items down stats wise and throw them into a Bis list for the future of if people are still waiting for everything to be released.

spiritryu · 07/12/09, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by Europe

Just looking over the coliseum itemization, do my eyes deceive me? I see...spiritless SP leather! and a spiritless caster staff. It seems like Blizz is finally acknowledging that this is the moonkin's preference. But if so, why the hell does our set gear still have so much spirit?

Though it was only the 5man loot, I caught a glimpse of leather gear with hit too.

Originally Posted by raidingmail

I was looking at some of the new items as well I'm curious if anyone has taken the time to sit down and break the new items down stats wise and throw them into a Bis list for the future of if people are still waiting for everything to be released.

It seems a bit early to be looking for BiS gear for the Coliseum. No point in trying to formulate a BiS list when something with the loot could still change.

Orin · 07/13/09, 2:46 PM

Incorrect info, please disregard.

• Arawethion · 07/13/09, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Orin

Probably because you still need some amount of mana regen in 3.2, you can't abandon it entirely. Current itemization means we can give up almost all talents for regen because our gear provides plenty. In the future perhaps we will have less from gear, and would have to decide if we make up for it with talents so we don't go oom in raids.

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Poromu · 07/13/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Yea, I think we're all scratching our heads. The fact is that once you learn encounters the margin or error is smaller and hence mana regen becomes less needed. Especially with the stats increased from the gear we're getting more bang for our buck.

Typically finishing any fight but Vezax i'm way ahead on mana compared to Ulduar's release when it was constantly a concern. I honestly hope I don't have to go back to Intensity and I can just stick with my Moonglow/OoC. (Which to be honest, I preferred ditching both and just relying on Innervates, but the hard modes i'm starting to see more and more healers could benefit from a small dps loss on my end to fill their mana bars.)

amped · 07/13/09, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Yea, I think we're all scratching our heads. The fact is that once you learn encounters the margin or error is smaller and hence mana regen becomes less needed. Especially with the stats increased from the gear we're getting more bang for our buck.

Typically finishing any fight but Vezax i'm way ahead on mana compared to Ulduar's release when it was constantly a concern. I honestly hope I don't have to go back to Intensity and I can just stick with my Moonglow/OoC. (Which to be honest, I preferred ditching both and just relying on Innervates, but the hard modes i'm starting to see more and more healers could benefit from a small dps loss on my end to fill their mana bars.)

That's been exactly my philosophy since the beginning of Ulduar, taking the mana regen talents so that you never have to use your innervate and you can save it for a healer. Only occasionally do I have to respec into Typhoon for fights like Freya +3, and for the most part AoEs in Ulduar don't really require 2/2 Gale Winds to be competitive if you use a well-timed Starfall for a 20% hastened Hurricane from NG.

• Arawethion · 07/13/09, 6:07 PM

Hah, yes, I agree with both of the above, but I was merely pointing out that that comment made no sense--Spirit only gives us regen if we take Intensity in the first place. Therefore it obviously can't serve the purpose of alleviating the need for Intensity.

Ranghar · 07/13/09, 7:14 PM

What gives us a lot of mana is Moonkin form. Every crit gives 2% total mana. If your gear quality is x, your regeneration is proportional to x^2 (int*crit) what is unheard of among other classes. It scales extremely well - in my current gear I regenerate 500-600 mp5 from this source alone. If you upgrade to coliseum spiritless gear (and equip new idol), your crit and mana will go up a lot. If they don't nerf it, I will be able to remove mana bar from my user interface as an unnecessary clutter.

Xerophyte · 07/13/09, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ranghar

What gives us a lot of mana is Moonkin form. Every crit gives 2% total mana.

Essentially this. Our 4 largest mana sources are, in order of significance: Moonkin Form, our base mana pool, Replenishment and Judgment of Wisdom. In terms of stats Spirit is almost purely throughput while mana is primarily gained through Int and Crit. If they both go up in 3.2 -- which is essentially guaranteed, especially if we get spiritless gear in the raids as well as the 5-man -- then mana will actually become less relevant.

Orin · 07/13/09, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Let's stop for a moment and think about what you said: our current Spirit-heavy itemization means we have so much regen that we can afford to raid without Intensity?

Yes, you are correct. I normally raid Resto with Moonkin as my off-spec, so had forgotten that without Intensity my regen from Spirit is nil.

klüger · 07/14/09, 7:35 AM

Originally Posted by Xerophyte

Essentially this. Our 4 largest mana sources are, in order of significance: Moonkin Form, our base mana pool, Replenishment and Judgment of Wisdom. In terms of stats Spirit is almost purely throughput while mana is primarily gained through Int and Crit. If they both go up in 3.2 -- which is essentially guaranteed, especially if we get spiritless gear in the raids as well as the 5-man -- then mana will actually become less relevant.

one thing though, with 3.2 the new eclipse comes, and unless the icd of lunar is such that you can chain it, you will be casting a lot more wraths, which will mean our mana-need goes up some.

As it is I'm running a no-regen specc, and it works well but I'm teetering on the edge on some hardmodes. Come 3.2 I will have to take some regen (I'm thinking typhoon for ooc and/or gale winds for intensity), just because of the increased mana-usage from the higher % of wrath casts.
The change to innervate should help us some though.

Altiris · 07/14/09, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

one thing though, with 3.2 the new eclipse comes, and unless the icd of lunar is such that you can chain it, you will be casting a lot more wraths, which will mean our mana-need goes up some.

As it is I'm running a no-regen specc, and it works well but I'm teetering on the edge on some hardmodes. Come 3.2 I will have to take some regen (I'm thinking typhoon for ooc and/or gale winds for intensity), just because of the increased mana-usage from the higher % of wrath casts.
The change to innervate should help us some though.

The change to innervate will not help us, except possibly under some bizarre circumstances which I cannot currently predict. You still have to wait until you are down a certain amount of mana before using it. Say you lose 16k mana in 120 seconds. That means you currently innervate at 120 seconds, and would innervate in 3.2 at 60 seconds. If the fight ends after 4 minutes, you can still only innervate once, but it will give you half as much mana. If the fight ends after 5 minutes, you could now innervate twice in 3.2, but only for the same amount of mana as once in 3.1.

Ruin · 07/14/09, 8:56 AM

It will help as an innvervate will give somebody OoM most of a bar of mana, most people don't have to go through that much and the person you innervate usually wastes a lot of the mana gained when he finishes the fight with lots of it: there is less waste, 2 people getting half a mana bar is about twice as helpful as 1 person getting a full one.

Also you can cast it much sooner in the fight, so in a long fight there is a chance of getting off 3.

Altiris · 07/14/09, 9:21 AM

In that longer fight where you get 3, you would have gotten 2 in 3.1 for more mana. It then evens out when you get up to 4 innervates in 3.2. Right now it's not a full mana bar, so in 3.2 it won't be half a mana bar. It's 15732 if I remember correctly, and currently I am sitting at 23.7k mana raid buffed. Perhaps it wastes less mana this way, but it also usually grants less mana; I would rather get more and waste a little than get less and not have enough.

Edit: Actually, there's a short amount of time equal to the elapsed time before your first 3 minute innervate where you can get three 3 minute innervates but only one 6 minute innervate, but that and the corresponding time every 6 minutes thereafter are the only fight lengths for which it is a buff. For all other periods in the fight it is a nerf or no change to personal mana regen.

Poromu · 07/14/09, 11:27 AM

Fact is for the same ammount of mana gained through Innervate, you'll have doubled the gcd's used. It is a PvE nerf for us directly, but probably a PvE buff for classes we Innervate other than ourselves. The only thing I do appreciate is that I won't have to be stingy about an Innervate in a fight where I need mine, but not all of it.

I honestly don't think the new Eclipse rotation will make such a huge change to mana issues that i'll have to respec into Intensity. Sure wrath is less DPM than starfire, but a the critrate is the same when not under the effect of lunar eclipse. If you crit 6/12 Wraths vs 3/6 Starfires, the difference in mana gained over mana spent is hardly noticeable.

Edit: I must add that i'm really looking forward to having Eclipse back the way it was. (This is basically how it was on some of the first PTR builds before 3.0 came out at the end of BC.)

Ranghar · 07/14/09, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Fact is for the same ammount of mana gained through Innervate, you'll have doubled the gcd's used.

Do you really think that there will be fights where you don't have a single spare GCD every 3 minutes? Patchwerk went the way of dodo.

Kaug · 07/14/09, 12:03 PM

I think it will a small buff in most cases.

1. This allows you you split your innervates between multiple targets. Ex Healer dies, you BR and innervate them, then 3 min later use the second innervate on yourself. Which should be nice since BRs are largely what put me into potential mana problems in the first place. This assumes you would oom before 6 more minutes pass and\or boss would live that long. Ex2, as someone said, you could innervate 2 healers giving each a boost to last the fight instead of making one end the fight with 40% mana left while the other is oom

2. If you innervate early and often, you will always get as much mana as now and often get more much more. This assumes first 3m innervate at 2min and then recast when it is available again, rounded up innervate to 15.8k.

 
Time     2m      5m        8m      11m
3m I      7.9k  15.8k     23.7k    31.6k
6m I      0     15.8k     15.8k    31.6k

3. Since it will be available again so much sooner, people will be less stingy and innervate themselves and others more often. You see it with BRs and heroism already. We used to horde them, they are used much more freely today since they be up soon, in time for next boss attempt if we wipe in the case of heroism, even with just 1 shammy in the raid.

In a way innervate will be more like chain mana potting in the old days. You'd use asap without wasting hoping to get one more later in the fight vs current innervate where 2 in 1 fight is a rare occurrence so you save till you are nearly oom hoping to snatch a few more replenishment tics while you're near bottom of all mana pools

• Arawethion · 07/14/09, 12:44 PM

Everyone gets that splitting it into two is strictly better than having to use it all together. The only cost is the extra GCD.

Altiris · 07/14/09, 1:17 PM

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I wouldn't say it's "strictly better". For example, a short, aoe heavy fight (say 3 minutes), where you are likely to run out of mana very fast. You could only use either innervate once because neither would see their cooldown refresh, but one of them gets you twice as much mana as the other.

• Arawethion · 07/14/09, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Altiris

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I wouldn't say it's "strictly better". For example, a short, aoe heavy fight (say 3 minutes), where you are likely to run out of mana very fast. You could only use either innervate once because neither would see their cooldown refresh, but one of them gets you twice as much mana as the other.

Right, forgot about that.

Poromu · 07/14/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ranghar

Do you really think that there will be fights where you don't have a single spare GCD every 3 minutes? Patchwerk went the way of dodo.

Well of course you will have spare gcd's while moving, but like always those could be used to boost dps. whether it be DoT clipping, iFF, Typhoon, Starfall, FoN or a 4pct8 proc. I mean, we find time to Innervate as it is, I was only mentioning the downfall to the change and yes, it is a direct nerf to DPS spending twice as many gcd's on mana in 3.2 compared to current.

Either way, it's not really a dramatic difference nor is there any really theorycrafting that can improve it's usage. I would honestly rather read more about the 4pc 258 V.S. 2pct8/2pc 258.