The new idol works great, saw a 2% increase over normal crit rates across the boards but still felt like eclipse doesn't proc enough. Anyone have a WWS to show how much more up time eclipse is getting compared with 3.1? I know its an improvement but i swear I'm not seeing 65% on most fights. Biggest problem is casting 3-4 starfires after a starfire eclipse before getting a wrath eclipse to proc, seems like wasted time to me. Honestly didn't know you could get 6 starfires out with out a crit XD.
It's been proccing off magic damage and no it's not worth taking for raiding over other talents. (Unless you're psuedo tanking like the head in Mimiron, but that's really encounter specific.)
I was told that Owlkin Frenzy now procs of magic dmg.
Anyone could maybe confirm this?
Would that make it viable option to take for raiding?
Cheers
It does proc from any damage now, I was testing it out a bit during the first few days of 3.2 but we only did Northrend beasts then and during that encounter it procced twice. Although the damage is far from consistent and really only comparable to Ulduar HM damage during the second phase so I really didn't get a proper feeling for it. I did intend to test it further in Ulduar last week but completely forgot about it.
I can imagine it is heavily reliant on the encounter, a fight like Mimiron where the raid damage consists of a lot of small amounts of damage (such as hand pulse etc) I think it could be a pretty valuable talent. But even fights which feature heavy raid damage but are mainly huge hits (Freya HM, Algalon) the up-time will be much less and I am not sure if it is worthwhile.
The spec I was using involved dropping starfall and galewinds to pick up 3/3, if I played balance 100% and didn't need to switch to resto so often I would probably take a second spec with it but I don't feel it is valuable enough on all encounters to use it in my primary spec. Although if there are any Coliseum HMs that have frequent enough damage to give it a decent up-time I will probably take it for them.
Just looking through some wowhead comments I saw this which was quite interesting:
This seems to have a funny way of proccing. I've been debating lately whether to have our boomkins pick it up, and it's really only useful if it procs on AoE damage instead of just direct attacks. From browsing the logs of some of our recent fights with druids picking the talent up, here's some of my findings:
Mimiron - druid with 3/3 in the talent didn't have it proc once during the fight. there is a ton of aoe damage in phase 2 with rapid burst and heat wave. the druid got hit 41 times in total (rapid burst and heat wave initial applications)
Auriaya - it proc'd 2 times, but the weird thing is that it proc'd on the fear only. didn't proc from the shockwave damage taken, although there were only 4 hits from that so it could be RNG.
Hodir - we had 2 druids with 3/3 in the talent. one of them never had it proc in 9 attempts at hard mode. the other had 3 procs overall during the 9 attempts. the log browser shows 2 of the proc'ing from the freeze (i.e. frost nova spell) and one of the proc'ing when he got flash frozen into a block (which doesn't do anything). frozen blows and the biting cold aura never caused owlkin frenzy to proc (in 450 ticks between those two abilities).
What happens with your eclipse calculations when this happen.
After Solar wrath ends, you want to keep spaming wrath to go into lunar. If you refresh 2 dots while waiting for lunar that means 2 possible wasted wrath casts that might grant you eclipse.
Same thing can happen with Lunar into Solar but the risk of it is much lower but if it happens, it lowers overall % of eclipse uptime time aswell. Any of these 2 don't matter that much, couse from what RAWR tells me, both eclipses with 2pT8 have the same DPS.
I hope all this DoT headacke will end soon when someone comes with some sort of simulations.
In a time limited fight we want to maximize our effective eclipse uptime, the amount of time when we are casting eclipse buffed nukes. We want to do this while casting our dots in the most effective way to maximise our dps.
If you refresh your dots during an eclipse proc you reduce your effective eclipse time by 1 GCD for each dot.
If you refresh your dot before the eclipse proc you are reducing your potential eclipse uptime by a global cooldown. Since you do not have a 100% chance to proc eclipse with the nukes, and since each cast has the same chance to proc eclipse you are decreasing effective eclipse uptime by less than if you were to refresh your dots during the eclipse, therefore it should be more advantageous to refresh dots between eclipses.
In a time limited fight we want to maximize our effective eclipse uptime, the amount of time when we are casting eclipse buffed nukes. We want to do this while casting our dots in the most effective way to maximise our dps.
If you refresh your dots during an eclipse proc you reduce your effective eclipse time by 1 GCD for each dot.
If you refresh your dot before the eclipse proc you are reducing your potential eclipse uptime by a global cooldown. Since you do not have a 100% chance to proc eclipse with the nukes, and since each cast has the same chance to proc eclipse you are decreasing effective eclipse uptime by less than if you were to refresh your dots during the eclipse, therefore it should be more advantageous to refresh dots between eclipses.
That's like saying that 6 wrath casts have the same chance to proc Eclipse as 4, which isn't the case. On average you will spend a finite amount of GCDs trying to proc Eclipse. Extending that with DoT refresh GCDs is still an effective GCD per refresh subtracted from total effective Eclipse uptime.
I never said to "do what feels right". I am advocating for people to experiment and run their own tests in addition to whatever a magical forum thread or DPS simulation program suggests. I don't understand how I came across otherwise.
The problem with this is that people run their own tests and come here claiming results despite the tests not being at all rigorous. You ran 5 tests of two models and compared results. There is still tons of RNG variance within 5 tests, whereas a simulation will do 5,000 tests and essentially remove (almost) all randomness and just provide average values.
Depending on the situation, yeah, it helps for people to put up numbers... but when it comes to my rotation with an RNG proc, I'm not going to trust any math anybody puts up. Yes, I'll use it as a frame of reference, but nothing beats actually testing things for myself. True to form, in last night's raid I did about 15% more DPS than ever before
Saying that you did 15% more DPS than ever before is sort of meaningless without the actual DPS. If you were sitting at 2k dps and are now doing 2.3k dps, sure, you're doing more DPS, but you're still doing 2.3k dps, and it's possible that the increase was due to your inability to effectively use the first strategy compared to the simplicity of your new one.
I really don't mean to insult you (or imply that you only do 2k dps), I just picked numbers to illustrate the overall point. I'm all about testing things to confirm or deny simulation results, but just as theory is useless without experimentation, the opposite holds true as well.
It's mostly a moot point, as 100% DoT uptime seems to be the strongest rotation, and therefore you're not really making any decisions about when to refresh.
The harder question is whether it's worth holding off a DoT cast for a few seconds if Eclipse is about to end. The difference in DPS would be very minor anyway though. Let me find the post where I tried to answer this.
Relevant to DoTs, DoT uptime, and Glyphing: I wanted to bat around some of my own heuristic beliefs that Glyph of Starfire is no longer a strong option for Moonkin on the grounds that the new rotation and new Idol discourages leaning towards SF as your main nuke and casting MF more often (between Eclipse procs even) is worthwhile and further self-rewarding for the Eclipse we are aiming to achieve with a 200 crit rating bonus granted.
The above said, I would think Glyph of Starfall becomes choice as a replacement. I have seen Glyph of Insect Swarm tossed aside in discussion as something just not worth it anymore after folks drop 4T8 in favor of 2 and 2, BUT we really have no reason to NOT use this DoT anymore as it was worth having glyphed before 4T8 was around. IIS seems even more attractive with the way things work now. Perhaps the double Starfall Glyphs are viable over Starfire and IS though?
End state, we want to cast MF more often for the idol procs and Glyph of Starfire is more of a manasaver over an actual DPS increase, if you can get comfortable with it (think this has been discussed before in early T8). We have a new pause introduced which makes ideal time to update DoTs. I think the only variation in timing is whether or not you want to refresh sometime before you are capable of the E proc and again toward the end of it, or perhaps just "whenever". Just whenever with an emphasis on the MF refresh at any given time is needed (like it used to be) should be a clear winner, and I'm leaning toward this school of thought. IS refreshes w/o 4T8 would be questionable though.
The Idol procs off MF ticks, not casts. Casting it more often is no advantage; it simply means we want more than ever to keep MF up constantly. Glyph of Starfire means we spend fewer GCD's casting MF, and it's just as strong now as it ever was.
I don't know why people are always so obsessed with Starfall for DPS purposes. Against a single target, it does barely more than a Moonfire cast.
I hear ya Arawethion, but it's still an advantage since you can cast a starfall WHILE having all other DOTs up, so it is truly additional dps at the cost of a single GCD.
I hear ya Arawethion, but it's still an advantage since you can cast a starfall WHILE having all other DOTs up, so it is truly additional dps at the cost of a single GCD.
But, is having Starfall on a 1 minute CD a bigger DPS increase than that of having to use lesss GCD on a MF to proc the idol?
This might be anecdotal or just me falling victim to the RNG, but is anybody else having a helluva time procing Eclipse now? The last few nights have been brutal for me. I'm seeing about 5700-5800 dps when I was 6200-6500 just after 3.2 released. The only change made has been swapping to the new idol, which I'd have to think would be a dps increase.
The killer has been transitioning from lunar to solar. I almost wonder if Blizz hotfixed something to do with the /cancelaura macro.
I am also having a hell of a time getting wrath to proc eclipse. Even with the new Idol up and going I can go 10-15+ casts with little to no luck. Would love to see them boost that part up to 25/50/75% chance, up from 20/40/60%
Back on the DoT discussion, I have noticed my ramp up time at the beginning of fights is very slow as currently I am casting IFF, IS, MF before I get to start nuking and I always start with Lunar Eclipse. I was wondering whether it may be more beneficial to only start with IS while I am trying to proc Lunar, I have IIS and more often than I like I end up having to re-apply MF by the time I get to proc Lunar. I also sometime proc Solar first if I crit from a 4T8 proc. If I am not casting Starfire in this case am I not better to just start with IS? (Obviously it will be a moot point once I get the new Idol)
Also regarding Glyphs it shouldn't be forgotten that Starfall also procs NG which also increases DPS. With the new changes I apply after I proc a solar eclipse to get the maximum benefit.
I use Owlkin Frenzy in my firefighter spec, and it does proc from all incidental damage (doomfire, napalm, rapid fire, fire nova, lightening etc). It has very high uptime in Phases 2 and 4, and I can get nice usage out of it if I'm fire kiting in P1 (too dangerous on P4, not worth it in my book). Since it also returns mana now I drop all other mana talents except OOC on fights I use it. It's not worth taking in general-usage specs, but it's a nice talent if you're getting hit a lot.
Back on the DoT discussion, I have noticed my ramp up time at the beginning of fights is very slow as currently I am casting IFF, IS, MF before I get to start nuking and I always start with Lunar Eclipse. I was wondering whether it may be more beneficial to only start with IS while I am trying to proc Lunar, I have IIS and more often than I like I end up having to re-apply MF by the time I get to proc Lunar. I also sometime proc Solar first if I crit from a 4T8 proc. If I am not casting Starfire in this case am I not better to just start with IS? (Obviously it will be a moot point once I get the new Idol)
Also regarding Glyphs it shouldn't be forgotten that Starfall also procs NG which also increases DPS. With the new changes I apply after I proc a solar eclipse to get the maximum benefit.
I do cast MF last when casting a few instants to maximize the chance of proccing Lunar in time to extend it. But again, once things like the new Idol and 2T9 are involved, avoid significant MF downtime.
Why would Solar be the best time for added NG uptime? Wrath NG uptime is quite high anyway. Really, the NG benefit Starfall is small since NG uptime is so high across the board, so it shouldn't be a significant factor in deciding when to cast it.
Just using some quick numbers based on a 30% self-buffed crit rate in moonkin form I got rough numbers of the proc being 120-160 dps, and 130-180 dps of the 245 and 258 25 man trinkets. The large 'range' comes from guesswork on latency effecting instant/wrath casts and NG haste effects. Large variation could arise though on how the charges "accumulate" around ones crits making these rough figures obsolete. I took this under the assumption: cast spell (crit, gets a charge), cast a spell (cant get a charge regardless), and if the 2nd spell afterwards crits, one could get a charge. That 2nd spell would always be 2s+ later then the time of the crit.
Seems to me the only trinket definitively better is the Flare of the heavens, with Scale of the fates possibly better.
The 10 man 232 and 245 trinkets stacking haste effect looks awful.
This might be anecdotal or just me falling victim to the RNG, but is anybody else having a helluva time procing Eclipse now? The last few nights have been brutal for me. I'm seeing about 5700-5800 dps when I was 6200-6500 just after 3.2 released. The only change made has been swapping to the new idol, which I'd have to think would be a dps increase.
The killer has been transitioning from lunar to solar. I almost wonder if Blizz hotfixed something to do with the /cancelaura macro.
It happens, there have been plenty of nights where my luck is just consistently bad - not proccing eclipse till half way through the 2nd phase of Mimiron was one of my worst horrible luck streaks.
Doing the daily HC a few hours ago everything was functioning as normal for me.
Why would Solar be the best time for added NG uptime? Wrath NG uptime is quite high anyway. Really, the NG benefit Starfall is small since NG uptime is so high across the board, so it shouldn't be a significant factor in deciding when to cast it.
Well you should have less NG uptime during a Solar Eclipse. However thinking about it it would probably be best to use it just after Lunar Eclipse has finished to keep your Starfires haste buffed to proc Solar and carry on from there.
I am not advocating glyphing Starfall by the way, just when it is best to use it. I have an AoE spec with Starfall Glyphed and a single target spec with IS glyphed which gives me the best of both worlds in the right situation.
So since there is pretty much always an eclipse active I am having a hard time deciding what to do during heroism, do I ignore Solar Eclipse during this time? I usually spend some time casting wrath to proc a Lunar eclipse if heroism is just starting or if it will last through most of a lunar eclipse, but I don't know if I should be Wrath spamming even though cast time is under 1 second with NG.
Just some numbers from a few kills/attempts last night:
Idol uptime is between 93-95% on fights like Iron Council where you can always DPS, it dropped to 70% uptime on Algalon though, however as it has been noted if there is a MF up, the proc is probably up as well. I was a big advocate of the Starfall glyph over Starfire glyph just due to how often you wanted to AE in hard modes, but with this Idol being based on MF uptime I think it puts Starfire back out ahead again. So IS, SF, MF appears to be the way to go yet again.
Since 3.2 I am finally seeing the high NG uptime that was modeled, usually around 65-60% on fights where there is not a lot of downtime, prior to this actual NG uptime based on logs was 40-50%.
On a fight like IC last night I was able to push 6.5k+ DPS, and on fights like Iron council where I struggled to be competitive for a top 5 spot I find the back to back eclipse has helped greatly (especially since I have to switch targets to the spark really maximizing benefit from solar eclipses).
On the topic of When to starfall, Wrath is already such a quick cast that you have time to cast 3 under a single NG, this leads to pretty high up time already because with debuffs on the mob and a normal raid make up, hitting 33% crit is very feasible. So instead of using Starfall with Solar, I usually try and use mine right after a lunar eclipse, giving my non-eclipsed Starfires good uptime on NG to speed the process along.
Is there a particular reason why anyone would want to try to specifically proc Lunar Eclipse first? My goal, after putting up dots, is to get into an eclipse state as quickly as possible, and to that end, I've been going for a Solar Eclipse right away. Is there any tangible reason why one should pick one or the other, or is it purely a matter of personal preference, since each cycle would include both as a matter of course?
Is there a particular reason why anyone would want to try to specifically proc Lunar Eclipse first? My goal, after putting up dots, is to get into an eclipse state as quickly as possible, and to that end, I've been going for a Solar Eclipse right away. Is there any tangible reason why one should pick one or the other, or is it purely a matter of personal preference, since each cycle would include both as a matter of course?
Mostly personal preference. My guess is that most people will start off with Lunar because that's what their muscle memory tells them to do. DPS-wise it's mostly a wash; you have the same time-to-proc Eclipse regardless of intended type, though proccing Solar obviously more granular in actual time-to-proc. Proccing Lunar first means you're casting Wrath, so it's also a faster way to get E&M up on the boss, but when you're talking about a single GCD's worth of time, it's a relative non-issue.
My trinket on use uptime prefers starting with a lunar eclipse first, so i can use scale of fates earlier and so have it back from cd earlier. Unless you keep it off cd for a burn phase, then it doesn't matter much.
e:
2T8+2T9+moonfire idol
Personal preferences aside. Starting an encounter with Iff, moonfire, starfall (hold off starfall if the moonfire direct damage procced NG), solar eclipse, insect swarm & continue rotation seems pretty strong.
Better chance to extend the first moonfire dot
Moonfire is up fast, so is the proc aswell
Starfire has 3% more crit then wrath via iis
NG up early for starfire via moonfire direct damage or starfall
Treants I would still base on fight lenght & heroism timing.
The problem with this is that people run their own tests and come here claiming results despite the tests not being at all rigorous. You ran 5 tests of two models and compared results. There is still tons of RNG variance within 5 tests, whereas a simulation will do 5,000 tests and essentially remove (almost) all randomness and just provide average values.
I had been noticing that I was getting a higher DPS without casting any DoTs. It really doesn't make much sense, but that's what I was noticing. I made a little simulator to get a more realistic idea of what DPS would be with different rotations, and of course with a bigger sample size casting DoTs was by far more DPS than skipping them.
If anyone wants to try out the simulator, you can download it here: Moonkin Sim.rar.
I was surprised with how much the DPS varied, even with 5000 spell casts. Moral of the story is stick to math to make logical decisions.
08/12/09, 5:53 AM
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