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Old 08/17/09, 2:59 PM   #1926
Talsh
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Huskar View Post
God, this would be so much easier if dots would just have higher dpet than eclipsed nukes...
I was just re-combing the past few pages and noticed this, and it got me thinking. 2T8 is a crazy good set bonus, of course, but Graylo (and maybe others?) have calculated that with the highest T9 set (are we calling this 9.5?), 4 piece T9's inferior set bonus is compensated by the general gear upgrade.

Assuming they're right, won't our rotation be a lot easier to manage? Isn't it the case that, without 2T8, a DoT's DPET will be greater than that of an eclipsed nuke?

I realize that for two months or so (or however long it takes us to get 4T9.5) the math will still be hairy, but is there hope on the horizon for simpler time?

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Old 08/17/09, 3:10 PM   #1927
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
DoT's do have higher DPET than Eclipsed nukes. They always have. The question is whether, if Eclipse is near ending, it's worth holding off on the DoT so you give up an uneclipsed GCD casting it instead.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
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Old 08/17/09, 3:51 PM   #1928
Talsh
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Blade
Duly noted. The same principles of the question exist though: if it's so close now to the point where it could go either way, won't the lack of 2T8 mean that refreshing the dot is clearly superior?

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Old 08/17/09, 3:57 PM   #1929
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Talsh View Post
Duly noted. The same principles of the question exist though: if it's so close now to the point where it could go either way, won't the lack of 2T8 mean that refreshing the dot is clearly superior?
It certainly favors refreshing (lack of 2T8, that is). But the basic analysis of determining when to refresh is still the same; it's hard to guess extemporaneously how much later in Eclipse it might shift the breakpoint. I'll try redoing the calculation that link a few posts up sometime soon.

Also, I've never personally confirmed the result that that stat difference from 226 to 258 overwhelms the loss from giving up 2T8, I'll try to check that soon once I get around looking up the stats and plugging them into WC.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/17/09, 4:10 PM   #1930
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
It certainly favors refreshing (lack of 2T8, that is). But the basic analysis of determining when to refresh is still the same; it's hard to guess extemporaneously how much later in Eclipse it might shift the breakpoint. I'll try redoing the calculation that link a few posts up sometime soon.

Also, I've never personally confirmed the result that that stat difference from 226 to 258 overwhelms the loss from giving up 2T8, I'll try to check that soon once I get around looking up the stats and plugging them into WC.
I looked into it using Rawr, and it seems true (though I didn't check by how much). The optimizer output 4T9-258 when they were marked as available (along with all* other Coliseum drops), but gave 2T8, 2T9-245 when those were the only ones marked. I didn't check to see if 2T9-245, 2T9-258 (i.e. a split 4T9) outweighed a 2T8 setup, I imagine it might depending on which pieces of T9-258 you have.


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Old 08/17/09, 7:15 PM   #1931
Starfox
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Destromath (EU)
Druid_T8_58_00_13 = 100% dot uptime
Druid_T8_X = When eclipse is up, only reapply MF/IS if > X sec left on the buff
DPS Ranking:
  76244 100.0%  Raid
   7646  10.0%  Druid_T8_3
   7644  10.0%  Druid_T8_1
   7642  10.0%  Druid_T8_2
   7642  10.0%  Druid_T8_58_00_13
   7640  10.0%  Druid_T8_4
   7638  10.0%  Druid_T8_5
   7632  10.0%  Druid_T8_6
   7623  10.0%  Druid_T8_7
   7615  10.0%  Druid_T8_8
   7614  10.0%  Druid_T8_9
Deactivating tier8_2pc only
DPS Ranking:
  72007 100.0%  Raid
   7228  10.0%  Druid_T8_58_00_13
   7225  10.0%  Druid_T8_2
   7224  10.0%  Druid_T8_3
   7220  10.0%  Druid_T8_1
   7218  10.0%  Druid_T8_4
   7213  10.0%  Druid_T8_5
   7202  10.0%  Druid_T8_6
   7194  10.0%  Druid_T8_7
   7188  10.0%  Druid_T8_8
   7182  10.0%  Druid_T8_9
Just go for 100% and have fun :o

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Old 08/17/09, 7:41 PM   #1932
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
The best two T9 pieces are hat/chest, so assume you have those on for your two-piece. The best T8 are legs/shoulders, so let's assume you upgrade those two slots from 226 to 258. You gain:

79 spellpower
43 hit
-64 crit
52 Int
113 Spi

Testing in my current setup (with 2T9 and IMF added in), exchanging those stats for the set bonus trades about 100 DPS for the 43 hit (which presumably you'd cover by swapping other items). Probably a net loss unless you were really struggling for good hit pieces.

For something more hit-negative, let's try upgrading legs/gloves instead:

79 spellpower
-14 hit
-76 crit
76 haste
52 Int
106 Spi

That looks like it loses 60 DPS and 14 hit. Definitely not good.

I'm seeing 2T8 worth about 415 DPS and 4T9 worth about 175 DPS, so this isn't surprising.

Since maybe the T8 pants are weak if you don't need hit, you could conceivably upgrade T8 legs/shoulders to T9 shoulders/gloves and swap the offset piece. This might be the most efficient plan, but for the moment it seems unlikely it would bring any gain, let along a large one.

Numbers would change slightly if I increased the stats to reflect what I might be wearing in late Colissuem, but not by much (esp. since the set bonuses scale quite well).

TLDR: I still find 2T8/2T9 to be BIS.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/17/09, 8:22 PM   #1933
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Here's the Rawr profile I used to generate the BiS list. Obviously it's geared for a JC, though I don't think that changes anything substantially given that Prismatics don't work like they used to. Also, it's Alliance. Cows gtfo. I haven't done the final upgrade list pass to make sure there's nothing I left out of the availability list, because it will take over a day to run (I ran one for T8 that took that long simply because of all of the items marked available), and I have a raid tonight. Still, given that it's equipping 258s in every* slot, I trust it for now. You'll need to rename the .zip to .xml, hosting here doesn't like xml files.

*Except the idol slot, obviously. And, of course, the two trinkets. GG IDS being BiS even when we have access to items 45 ilevels higher. Of course, it could also be that the procs on ToC trinkets aren't being counted by Rawr quite correctly yet.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Ado T9 BIS.zip (15.4 KB, 384 views)


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Old 08/17/09, 8:35 PM   #1934
Starfox
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Destromath (EU)
Can't open the zipfile :<
Wanted to use it to import it into simcraft :x
Edit: You uploaded the .xml file, it is not zipped. You got me there :/

Last edited by Starfox : 08/17/09 at 9:08 PM.

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Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

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Old 08/17/09, 8:45 PM   #1935
 Hamlet
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
What do we know about the current Rawr model? (I know I ask this a lot; it's always just hard for me to do anything with Rawr results when I can't see the innards).

To be more specific, what sorts of marginal values does Rawr give for current stats, and what does it give for values of the set bonuses?

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/17/09, 9:30 PM   #1936
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
What do we know about the current Rawr model? (I know I ask this a lot; it's always just hard for me to do anything with Rawr results when I can't see the innards).

To be more specific, what sorts of marginal values does Rawr give for current stats, and what does it give for values of the set bonuses?
The specifics of the set I linked are SP:1.35, Crit:1.08, Haste:.83, Int:.57, Spi:.47, though it will update those depending on the equipped gear. As for set bonuses, simply adding 2T8 on top of that gear set would increase DPS by 401, 4T9 is providing 10, and 2T9 is providing 192.


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Old 08/17/09, 9:37 PM   #1937
Starfox
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Destromath (EU)
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
*Except the idol slot, obviously. And, of course, the two trinkets. GG IDS being BiS even when we have access to items 45 ilevels higher. Of course, it could also be that the procs on ToC trinkets aren't being counted by Rawr quite correctly yet.
There are ToC trinket with 168 sp passive AND additional procs, so I'd go with the Rawr fails theory there.

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

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Old 08/17/09, 10:03 PM   #1938
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Starfox View Post
There are ToC trinket with 168 sp passive AND additional procs, so I'd go with the Rawr fails theory there.
One's a useless MP5 proc on heals, the other's a lightning capacitor which makes it hard to implement in Rawr correctly without adding code. Instead, I just gave it Lightning Capacitor's proc, which bumped it to the top of the list. It shouldn't change much else, and won't itself change much with proper implementation.


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Old 08/17/09, 10:19 PM   #1939
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
The specifics of the set I linked are SP:1.35, Crit:1.08, Haste:.83, Int:.57, Spi:.47, though it will update those depending on the equipped gear. As for set bonuses, simply adding 2T8 on top of that gear set would increase DPS by 401, 4T9 is providing 10, and 2T9 is providing 192.
Those are very similar to my numbers (assuming the 4T9 is a typo). I have higher values for the stats though (the proportions are similar, my model is probably giving a higher base DPS so the marginal values look higher). So it's weird that you see 4T9 as being worthwhile. Can you tell me which 5 items it's recommending you put in the armor slots (and ideally, which 2T8/2T9 setup it says is highest DPS?).

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/17/09, 10:47 PM   #1940
 Adoriele
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Those are very similar to my numbers (assuming the 4T9 is a typo). I have higher values for the stats though (the proportions are similar, my model is probably giving a higher base DPS so the marginal values look higher). So it's weird that you see 4T9 as being worthwhile. Can you tell me which 5 items it's recommending you put in the armor slots (and ideally, which 2T8/2T9 setup it says is highest DPS?).
Oops, yeah, it's 210, not 10. It's suggesting [Leggings of the Awakening]-258 offset, I'll see what it gives for the best 2/2 once I get a chance to run it, it's actually fairly hard to enforce things like that.


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Old 08/17/09, 10:54 PM   #1941
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
Oops, yeah, it's 210, not 10. It's suggesting [Leggings of the Awakening]-258 offset, I'll see what it gives for the best 2/2 once I get a chance to run it, it's actually fairly hard to enforce things like that.
Yeah, I know--it's one of the reasons that you can't really get any use of Rawr unless you buy exactly into their model. It would be a useful bit of info to have to see why it's recommending 4T9 though. 210 DPS is a bit higher than I'd been seeing for 4T9, but there's still quite a discrepancy.

Note that I'm modeling the 4T9 bonus as additive with Moonfury and Eclipse. Very small difference there though.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/18/09, 2:04 AM   #1942
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Baelgun
For the record, the latest Rawr has not yet integrated the last release of WrathCalcs. I pretty much modeled the math off the first extant spreadsheet with 3.2 modeling, which is probably a bit out of date and/or inaccurate. I will be updating it this week and the next release should hopefully be up to speed.

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Old 08/18/09, 2:11 AM   #1943
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
For the record, the latest Rawr has not yet integrated the last release of WrathCalcs. I pretty much modeled the math off the first extant spreadsheet with 3.2 modeling, which is probably a bit out of date and/or inaccurate. I will be updating it this week and the next release should hopefully be up to speed.
Ah, I didn't even realize you were periodically updating from WC. The one currently posted on the Beginner Guide thread should be a good one to work from; I don't have any major changes in mind. I did add an option to estimate how often you successfully chain Lunar into Solar with the macro/addon, which I haven't uploaded yet, but I think that's all.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/18/09, 2:47 AM   #1944
 Adoriele
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Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Yeah, I know--it's one of the reasons that you can't really get any use of Rawr unless you buy exactly into their model. It would be a useful bit of info to have to see why it's recommending 4T9 though.
That's not exactly a fair statement to make. There's no connection between the opacity of Rawr's calculations and its inability to allow you to enforce certain gear setups. Rawr is built to do two things: tell you the expected output of a given outfit (for lack of a better, unambiguous term) of gear and, based on those numbers, find the optimal outfit from a given set of available gear. It's built for certain constraints, usually applied to tanking classes, such as keeping resistance, actual health, survivability, etc. above/below a certain value, but it's not designed for such micromanaging as specifying that you should use 2T8 and 2T9 for the simple fact that it breaks optimality. There's a reason to have X resistance, or be uncrittable, or having over Y Health. There's no reason to specifically choose 2T8/2T9 over 4T9 if it's not optimal.

That out of the way, sometimes the optimizer fails*, and this appears to be one of those cases. I marked the gloves and shoulders of T9 as unavailable to force 2T8/2T9 (note that, when I said it was difficult before, I actually meant it was tedious. There are 30 2/2 combinations, and each one has to be forced manually), and the optimizer output a set with 3 DPS higher than the 4T9 setup. I'm reasonably sure that I can coax even more out of it by doing some more work defining sets to optimize, but at this point I'm willing to say that they're neck-and-neck.

*The optimizer is simply an interative process, not an enumerative process. It doesn't try to find the value of every conceivable combination of gear possible from your available set. Instead, it starts at a base point, and upgrades piece for piece until no possible gear swap it tries produces a larger output. Thoroughness controls how many swaps per slot it will try before it gives up, but there's always the possibility that it won't catch something.


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Old 08/18/09, 4:52 PM   #1945
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Baelgun
By playing around in the Rawr code a little bit, changing the 4T9 set bonus from multiplicative (as I have it modeled currently) to additive (as it is in WC) changes the value by 10%. That's a huge swing, and would easily throw the scales in favor of 2T8+2T9, as would be expected.

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Old 08/18/09, 7:37 PM   #1946
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
By playing around in the Rawr code a little bit, changing the 4T9 set bonus from multiplicative (as I have it modeled currently) to additive (as it is in WC) changes the value by 10%. That's a huge swing, and would easily throw the scales in favor of 2T8+2T9, as would be expected.
That makes sense. I made a mistake above; the change in value should be 10% exactly for Starfire (Moonfury) and up to 55% for Wrath (Moonfury + Eclipse), which is quite large.

Now we just need to confirm which it is on live. Which I guess still has to wait a few weeks.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 08/18/09, 9:55 PM   #1947
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Baelgun
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
That makes sense. I made a mistake above; the change in value should be 10% exactly for Starfire (Moonfury) and up to 55% for Wrath (Moonfury + Eclipse), which is quite large.

Now we just need to confirm which it is on live. Which I guess still has to wait a few weeks.
I also still have Eclipse as multiplicative with Moonfury. It will take a bit of work to make that additive, but that fix should make the numbers even closer together. I'm not sure how that'll affect the set bonus, but I'm guessing it'll increase the drop in value.

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Old 08/20/09, 11:41 AM   #1948
h3llraiser
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Archimonde
Are a lot of people opting out of the four piece t8.5 and just using two t8.5?

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Old 08/20/09, 6:43 PM   #1949
 Adoriele
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Originally Posted by Hatesfury View Post
I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for Arawethion, but i was able to figure out how much DPS rawr assigns to a set bonus by "faking" rawr. Basically i just created a new item "T9 245 gloves" and mirrored all stats for the gloves (excluding the set ofcourse). Then you can simply swap the tier piece back and forth with the place holder to discover what sort of weight the set bonus is getting. You can also use this trick to check if rawr is allowing the set bonus to scale with other stats by changing other parts of the gearing, such as adding higher SP items in other slots.

While this won't show you all of what rawr is doing, it should give you a bit more insight into how it's modeling the set bonus.
Err. You could do all that, or you could just look at the Buffs screen. Not the one in the options panel, but the one you access through the same pull-down where you change which slot you're looking at, enchants, gems, etc. You can see buffs, talents, whole separate talent specs, relative stat values, all of that sort of thing through that pull-down. There's a lot more to Rawr than just generating sets and optimizing.


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Old 08/25/09, 12:49 AM   #1950
Ledneh
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Does anyone have any opinion about how to best do Vezax post-3.2 with the Idol of Lunar Fury? It used to be I would throw up IFF on the pull and do nothing but spam starfire in crashes (and nothing at all outside of them), but would throwing Moonfire in there add enough crit from the Idol to be worth the loss in DPM?

Last time I fought him in 3.1, without vapor I'd tank about 45 seconds before Vezax died, for reference. My gear has improved some since then generally, and of course his smaller health pool, but (for reasons that are boring) I haven't had a chance to actually TRY him post-3.2 yet. Or Yogg for that matter, but that's another tale.


(edit) An unrelated question. Does the single-target component of Starfall damage get cut by the AoE debuff on the Faction Champions encounter?

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