No special significance. And crit's basically never going to be worth as much as spellpower or pre-cap haste.
Eh, the higher your Spellpower, the higher the value of crit and haste, so at some very high value of SP, +1 crit will be better then +1 SP; what exactly that number is, I'll leave up to people better at math then me.\
As for the crit softcap (100% under 2t8 lunar), as many have said before, it only effects Lunar so it should have less of a DPS inpact on it's stat value then the haste-cap.
I've followed this thread for a while and have seen reference to a /cancelaura macro used on your current eclipse. I can't recall seeing details on exactly when you use it though (and it's not in the Beginner's Guide).
Could someone recap what you do, real quick? And what's this addon Poromu mentions, regarding this?
I know the threads have gotten a bit redundant lately; I should probably figure out what to do with the Beginner Guide and TTT posts for more sensible organization.
I find Illustration dropping off far too much to my liking in ToC that I am switching back to Abyssal Rune for the moment, at least until I get more experienced not to let it fall off.
Anyone else getting that problem?
Also, I realize that at 403 haste, due to my high latency of 300-400, it's better for me to time my wrath re-cast by watching my gcd meter. However, without NG or any other haste buff, Wrath seems to cast slowly than the cycle of my gcd.
Initially, I assumed that since Wrath has a base cast time of 1.5 secs, same with the gcd, then timing the two should have favorable results. Can anyone with good latency confirm if un-buffed wrath casts in the same time-frame as a gcd?
I find Illustration dropping off far too much to my liking in ToC that I am switching back to Abyssal Rune for the moment, at least until I get more experienced not to let it fall off.
Anyone else getting that problem?
Also, I realize that at 403 haste, due to my high latency of 300-400, it's better for me to time my wrath re-cast by watching my gcd meter. However, without NG or any other haste buff, Wrath seems to cast slowly than the cycle of my gcd.
Initially, I assumed that since Wrath has a base cast time of 1.5 secs, same with the gcd, then timing the two should have favorable results. Can anyone with good latency confirm if un-buffed wrath casts in the same time-frame as a gcd?
At which fights are you losing your Illustration buff? I can see it might be kind of annoying for the latter two phases of Beasts, but that should be it.
Wrath cast time is the same as the GCD. If you have your cast bar and GCD bar equal length on your screen, you'll see them progress at the same rate. The GCD spark will be ahead because it starts in your client as soon as you press the button. The GCD bar will complete when the Wrath cast bar hits the "red zone" in Quartz.
Alright i have a question here. I am just above 400 haste and 263 hit atm with this [Elemental Focus Stone] Does the proc help me at all? If i procs during a solar eclipse wouldn't it just be a waste? Lunar i could see it being really good. 1.8 starfires. Would i be better off with Dying Curse and getting hit cap with gear changes?
DoT's do have higher DPET than Eclipsed nukes. They always have. The question is whether, if Eclipse is near ending, it's worth holding off on the DoT so you give up an uneclipsed GCD casting it instead.
In regards to refreshing dots; and [spend time during Eclipse] or [spend time potentially used to proc another Eclipse]:
I have a suggestion may help alleviate this decision under specific circumstances. It does not explicitly answer this question, rather details a situation whereby both are minimised. It is important to note that this situation may not occur often, and is only relevant if you choose not to refresh DoTs towards the end of Eclipse.
Basically the aim is to maximise usage of "uncertainty" in proccing eclipse.
For Lunar, this is the flight period of a critical Wrath. [We know it'll be a crit, we just don't know if the crit will proc Eclipse]
For Solar, this is the moment in which we queue our next spell. [We don't know whether the starfire will crit until it hits the target a split second later - in which our next spell should already be queued]
When attempting to proc Lunar Eclipse:
-Do not starfall, as that obscures when you can see when a Wrath will crit (and therefore a chance for Lunar Eclipse to occur)
When you see that Wrath will crit: (You may want to fire two wraths before you go to the next step, depending on your distance from the boss; and you've likely to have queued up another anyway)
- Refresh dots that have fallen off. (You'll probably have space for two dots; although this will depend on your distance from the boss and how many wraths you chained)
If Lunar Eclipse is triggered, begin Starfires.
Rationale: This is very similar to an Eclipsing strategy whereby you charge a Starfire cast after you notice a couple of wrath crits (in order to maximise Eclipsed SF uptime); It's just replacing the pre-starfire with any dots that might not yet be up.
In a philosophical sense, if you're replacing your pre-starfire casting for this strat, you are just trading Eclipse time at the beginning for dots; in which case you would be in a similar situation as if you had refreshed your dots whilst Eclipse was about to end. [Difficult to make sense of? Read a few times :P]
When attempting to proc Solar Eclipse:
If the direct Lunar->Solar Eclipse did not work on occasion; you could try:
- Refreshing the DoT(s) after 1 Starfire (ie, queue your dot)
Note that if SF crits, you will gain Nature's Grace, likely lowering the GCD to 1s. This will probably affect both your dots AND your first wrath cast.
Rationale: By the time you know if the SF crits (therefore triggering Solar Eclipse) you will already be casting your next spell. Execution time for instants is less than cast time for SF, therefore 'wasting less' of the Eclipse (unless you casted two dots, in which case it would be more debatable).
If you had dotted before the SF was cast, that's extra time used with 0% chance of proccing eclipse (although you trade-off for guaranteed DoT damage)
I'm uncertain whether it's worth doing [SF -> Dot -> SF -> Dot] or [SF -> Dot -> Dot] if the SF did not proc eclipse. I'm leaning towards the latter whether the SF crits or not (unless of course, your dots happen to expire in a manner which would suit the first sequence)
But what if my Wraths don't crit?
Eclipse-wise, you're in exactly the same boat as if you had applied dots earlier. However, you're now missing out damage from dots.
I think the above is correct. In fact, it's a good description of what I've found myself doing out of habit after playing the spec for a few months. I've alluded to it somewhat in the TTT post, but should probably make it more explicit.
Do we have some quantitative numbers or analysis of the effects of haste at and above the soft cap with varying (read: australian 180-200ish) latency?
I realise the value of it drops to roughly 0 around 400, but what i'm asking is whether you would gain more dps in a high latency environment by staying under the cap to get the lag reducing benefits of the spell queue system.
E.g. I'm running with 375 haste, trading a bunch of haste pieces for crit gear to stay under. If I went to only a small amount over the cap, say in the 400-480 range, would i get a dps benefit from the haste, or a dps penalty because i now get hit with aus_latency+reaction_time, instead of aus_latency-queue_benefit+reaction_time?
And if we get a penalty (which I think is what happens), do we have a quantitative relationship where the benefits of 400+ haste outweigh the penalty, for a given value of latency+reaction time?
Hope that makes sense. It *feels* worse to ride just above the cap, but feelings are the enemy of all good logic!
I'm uncertain whether it's worth doing [SF -> Dot -> SF -> Dot] or [SF -> Dot -> Dot] if the SF did not proc eclipse. I'm leaning towards the latter whether the SF crits or not (unless of course, your dots happen to expire in a manner which would suit the first sequence)
The former, due to spell queueing mechanics you get a faster gcd if you leave a sf between dot refreshes. The time you save on casting dots seems to outweigh the damage the dot would have done itself.
Ok, first I'd like to say thanks cu you guys are on the ball on moonkins compared to other classes since the patches, I've officially switched my main to moonkin as well.
First, I'm re thinking my spec now, with never running OOM in 25 mans, much less using intervate, I'm leaning to removing my 2 points in intensity. I do not believe there is any reason to typhoon in any of TOC. So I'm looking at OF and brambles. OF looks more appealing, but my question is is it pointless to put 2 points in there if nothing increases in bonuses until you gave all three points?
My options now are either 1 point OW and 1 point brambles/ muunglow just for backup. Or even possibly, take a point out of omen of clarity and have all 3 on OW. I'd love to see some WWS with people that have OF. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on the matter?
I've been a RAWR user forever. I just upgraded from 2.2.14 to 2.2.15 and noticed something interesting.
It tells me that I should not be using IS any more. Notably, my theoretical DPS (with the buffs my 10-man group provides) are:
5976 MF/SF
5879 IS/MF/SF
5529 SF
5525 IS/SF
I'm running a 58/0/13 build with IS swarm glyphed and improved insect swarm talented with 2T8+2T9. (Note that in RAWR SF or W means casting whatever is appropriate for the current eclipse state.)
Is it the case that IS doesn't scale well enough and I should be skipping it except for situational uses (something to cast while running)? Or is this a bug in the new RAWR version? The RAWR release notes for 2.2.15 had a note of "Fix for a damage calculation bug."
Something does indeed seem off with the latest Rawr. I'm also been told to drop IS, and it seems to be favouring haste more then it should (and did in previous versions). With 500 haste + Sundial, it's telling me to swap to Abyss which I doubt is correct?
Ok, first I'd like to say thanks cu you guys are on the ball on moonkins compared to other classes since the patches, I've officially switched my main to moonkin as well.
First, I'm re thinking my spec now, with never running OOM in 25 mans, much less using intervate, I'm leaning to removing my 2 points in intensity. I do not believe there is any reason to typhoon in any of TOC. So I'm looking at OF and brambles. OF looks more appealing, but my question is is it pointless to put 2 points in there if nothing increases in bonuses until you gave all three points?
My options now are either 1 point OW and 1 point brambles/ muunglow just for backup. Or even possibly, take a point out of omen of clarity and have all 3 on OW. I'd love to see some WWS with people that have OF. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on the matter?
The very first question I would ask is do you have Nature's Focus? I'm finding it to be essential for all current end-game. I am currently specced into no regen talents aside from the token 1 point in Moonglow because Genesis is so bad. I go hours of raiding sometimes without Innervating myself at all.
Anyways, you have to remember that OF is the most situational dps talent we have. (Moreso than Typhoon.) If it doesn't proc off certain hits, or it doesn't proc off any unavoidable damage it's worth is near zero. Even in those fights where it might proc frequently it's worth can still be reduced by movement muchlike Eclipse.
The dual speccing is nice because you can associate an encounter needs with your available skills as opposed to your base skills. Unfortunately for me it's frequently Resto, but if I didn't need the niche I would totally have OF in an offspec.
That's some good numbers, thanks. My question than would be what's he advantage of 1 point in OF and 2 points I'm OF. Unless I'm missing something the tooltip says nothing differently, so why have 2 points? Seems like 1 or all 3.
I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%
Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.
The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.
To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana innefficient for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.
I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%
Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.
The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.
To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.
Hm, weird if I filter the log for blayze+owlkin frenzy it only shows me one proc which happened when you got the frost-dot.
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
On another topic: Trinket - Talisman of Volitile Power. Playing around with this, and looking over this log I find I can get it to full stack in <5seconds when used together with Starfall. So assuming I always use it together with starfall and a lunar eclipse - how good is it? I already use it on Anub, because the CD on it works out perfectly for his ground phases, but have been sticking with Sundial on other fights.
Something does indeed seem off with the latest Rawr. I'm also been told to drop IS, and it seems to be favouring haste more then it should (and did in previous versions). With 500 haste + Sundial, it's telling me to swap to Abyss which I doubt is correct?
Between 2.2.14 and 2.2.15, Rawr Moonkin changed some timing calculations (function in source is DoMainNuke())
2.2.14: The effective cast time for any spell was
max(gcd, cast_time/haste)+latency
2.2.15: Cast times are unchanged for instants (gcd+latency). For nukes (other than instant SF) it is now
Items in red here, are things I got wrong when I originally posted this.
Original post: No NG: (cast_time/haste). No latency.
No NG: max(cast_time/haste, GCD + latency)
With NG: max(cast_time/haste, NG GCD + latency)
With the default 0.2s latency:
Rawr 2.2.15 gives instants a larger penalty compared to Nukes. This would mean that IS (even glyphed) gets dropped sooner. I'm not sure this is the root cause for what you saw, though.
Original post: Rawr 2.2.15 says a NG Wrath takes at least 1.2s. A non-NG Wrath can be cast in less than 1.2s (with haste over 400). Obviously this makes makes haste more valuable (and crit less valuable) in 2.2.15, compared to 2.2.14.
My opinion: 2.2.15 is placing too much penalty on instants and NG-Wrath. To compensate, I'd guess using a smaller latency value (perhaps 0.05s) would be appropriate, but I haven't played with it yet.
Updated opinion: Charging no latency at all to SF is optimistic, and inflates the value of Haste (and diminishes the value of IS) a little. If SF cast times are going to be optimistic, I'd be inclined to pick a more optimistic latency for the other spells also (a Rawr latency setting in the range from 0.05 to 0.15)).
I think he intends to start using two latency values (one for slow nukes, and one for spells under the GCD). Right now there is no latency at all for slow nukes, even if "slow" means 1.02s.
Last edited by Erdluf : 09/14/09 at 10:05 AM.
Reason: Corrections about Rawr formulas
I looked at this, on the "Buffs gained" tab, and it has 5 counts of OF, and uptime 37.8s - 19.5%
Playing around with the log - it looks like one proc occurred during the first up phase, I remember it happening because our hunter shot down an ice sphere on my head and found it odd for it to proc from this.
The rest of the procs occurred during a burrow phase; I tend to play with the small adds kiting them over ice patchs and I assume when I cut the corners of the patches I got "hit" and this proc'd it. Tempted to play around with this to see if I can't force OF to proc more often.
To jtalaimo: Thoughs 2 points are just fillers basically - Pretty much cookie cut build, I've tried a spec without OoC and although it does work, it's a little too mana innefficient for my preference. OF is 5% chance to proc per point as far as I'm aware, so it gets 2 points.
if it's 5% per point wouldn't all three points in it be 15% rather than 10?? I have no idea but the talent trees are showing no difference in 1 and 2 points. P
09/05/09, 2:07 PM
Similar Threads
