Moonkin Raiding - Page 81

Skjaven · 05/07/09, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Cynex

Throwing off instant starfires as soon as it proced is important to prevent buff selfrefreshing, in my opnion this is dps gain even under eclipse effect.

I can confirm that. Even under the effect of solar-eclipse, casting the instant starfire is a dps gain.

The overall dps-gain of the 4T8 bonus is somewhat lower for a solar-eclipse rotation, but still significant.
If my calculations are correct, the changes to the 4T8 bonus (supposing the bug gets fixed) and to the spirit-spellpower conversion make the set viable. It seems that a gearset with 4T8 can compete with or even overtake a template with 2T8 damagewise.

pukabg · 05/07/09, 11:14 AM

In regards to 4t8, I'll be rolling with Legs and Hands for sure... but I'm torn with the head, shoulders, and chest pieces.

I think the biggest factor is going to be how much hit rating I end up needing on my tier stuff. The T8.5 shoulders are pretty poor and since I'll likely be keeping with a lunar rotation the haste on [Malleable Steelweave Mantle] is better than the crit on 8.5. Of course I'll take whatever drops first for now and subbing in [Collar of the Wyrmhunter] for the helm or [Robes of the Umbral Brute] would be pretty nice too.

Talsh · 05/07/09, 3:48 PM

In all the talk of which rotation is better, how much of the decision hangs on the T8 set piece bonus? It seems to me that the bonus lends itself strongly toward a lunar eclipse, or at the very least a solar eclipse with SF when eclipse is on CD. Others have posted that it's still beneficial to fire off an instant SF during solar eclipse, but wouldn't the bonus be more significant if you were using a lunar eclipse rotation?

Also, an aside: I recently acquired the IS idol. As a result, I've been altering my rotation slightly to try to keep IS up more often, a strategy that I think will continue to be optimal once I get 4 piece T8. But, until then, it seems to be that it's a pretty breakeven decision between refreshing IS more often and using the idol or staying with the SF idol and the pre 3.1 rotation standard (which usually saw 85-90% MF uptime while only having 70-75% IS uptime on averages). My numbers just come from a bunch of training dummy rotations - does anyone have anything more substantial showing that one method is clearly superior to the other?

Starfox · 05/07/09, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by Talsh

In all the talk of which rotation is better, how much of the decision hangs on the T8 set piece bonus? It seems to me that the bonus lends itself strongly toward a lunar eclipse, or at the very least a solar eclipse with SF when eclipse is on CD. Others have posted that it's still beneficial to fire off an instant SF during solar eclipse, but wouldn't the bonus be more significant if you were using a lunar eclipse rotation?

Also, an aside: I recently acquired the IS idol. As a result, I've been altering my rotation slightly to try to keep IS up more often, a strategy that I think will continue to be optimal once I get 4 piece T8. But, until then, it seems to be that it's a pretty breakeven decision between refreshing IS more often and using the idol or staying with the SF idol and the pre 3.1 rotation standard (which usually saw 85-90% MF uptime while only having 70-75% IS uptime on averages). My numbers just come from a bunch of training dummy rotations - does anyone have anything more substantial showing that one method is clearly superior to the other?

The ulduar idol sucks :/
You are better with steadfast renewal in a wrath rotation and shooting star in a sf rotation
SF rotation: 3SF : 1IS in casts and shooting star is already better.

Poromu · 05/07/09, 4:35 PM

There are two Gray Matter posts that are extremely accurate in the department of rotations and idol selections.
Warning: These can be somewhat mathy.

This one will show you why the Ulduar Idol is vastly inferior to both the pre-3.1 idols.
Gray Matter: Guide to Moonkin Idols

This one will show you why not keeping your DoT's up (primarily IS) is a dps loss even without the Ulduar idol.
Gray Matter: The Moonkin Rotation

Erdluf · 05/07/09, 4:38 PM

In very round numbers, the IS idol is worth 100 per tick. The SF idol is worth 200 per non-crit hit, 400 per crit. (these numbers actually undervalue SF by perhaps 10%).

If you look at your logs for most fights, you'll probably see 2*SF_normals + 4*SF_crits > IS ticks. I've had fights where this wasn't true, but they aren't common in PvE.

Talsh · 05/07/09, 7:00 PM

Thanks for the responses guys. Since you all seem to be so firm in your convictions, I looked over the logs again to try to figure out why my data was so close, and it just looks like it might be RNG based (I previously miscalculated the crit %). By the looks of the last few posts, the Ulduar idol is obviously inferior. Also, the 4 piece T8 bonus shouldn't change anything. I appreciate the help.

Ownoko · 05/08/09, 2:42 AM

Alright, guys, I have afew questions. I have been going through pages here for quite some time. I've finally actually signed up and now I can finally ask my questions, instead of searching through pages for it. I've looked and figured some of them out because of you number crunching gods <3

Thank you for that.

So here's my first one; With the gear I'm in (I'd give a link but the armory isn't bringing up my character..)
If you do armory me, then you'd see I can get rid of my Main hand, (I hope to do so with the Fist weapon from naxx 25)
My trinket from Vh can be replaced now with the badge one which will be very nice. Aswell for a helm upgrade to Valor would help for a minimal upgrade, but all helps.

Second; my rotation goes like this. Mf-IS-W(till eclipse pops)-Sf(End clipse)/Reapply IS-MF ((Repeat))
Am I doing something wrong? With the gear im wearing and the glyphs I have, should I be doing a different rotation?

Third; I'm always told I don't have enough haste, and I always fall under 3k dps, when really people tell me I should push 3-4k easy with my gear. With what i've said and my gear lay out, what am I doing wrong?

Fourth; My spec was taken from a top dps Boomkin on a chart I saw, i'm seeing alot of people with this - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Should I swap my spec over to that one?

Firth; Glyph problems, I think I have my self Glyphed wrong D:

Thank you all for your help! :]

Lilija · 05/08/09, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by Skjaven

The overall dps-gain of the 4T8 bonus is somewhat lower for a solar-eclipse rotation, but still significant.
If my calculations are correct, the changes to the 4T8 bonus (supposing the bug gets fixed) and to the spirit-spellpower conversion make the set viable. It seems that a gearset with 4T8 can compete with or even overtake a template with 2T8 damagewise.

Unfortunatly, on ptr the bonus is still bugged

I already made few topics about it and I really hope Blizzard will consider fixing it since otherwise that 15% proc rate won't change a thing if most of the time you won't be able to actually cast an instant Starfire. If someone wants to support here are the links on EU forums:
PTR: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> [Bug] Balance druid T8 4set bonus
Suggestions: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> [Bug] Balance druid T8 4set bonus

Anyway, this is not the main purpose of my post ^^ Assuming the T8 gets fixed we will have to live with much lower crit raiting if we decide to use it. This leads to quite a problem with proccing Lunar eclipse ... well, mostly with it's randomness. My observations lead me to thinking that if I don't manage to proc a Lunar eclipse during first DoTs duration, switching to SF (mainly to add those few more seconds to MF) and eventual proccing Solar eclipse seems to give better dps results than tryint to proc Lunar at all cost. Anyone could support me with some maths to this observation?

Also, I am wondering what would be a reasonable crit level (raid buffed) so Lunar eclipse can get a reasonable proc rate. I mean, before Ulduar I was all about spellpower and haste stacking since I never really had problems with proccing Lunar but now keeping my haste favourizing gearing method I really feel I'm having a problem with the RNG - so I am really confused when it comes to future gear decissions since I feel I can't let my crit drop any more and in fact should raise it a bit. In fact for fights like Hodir gaining 6% crit from switching to T7 atcost of 70 spellpower, 34 haste and 2xT8 bonus seems to be giving better results.

dukes · 05/08/09, 4:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lilija

I mean, before Ulduar I was all about spellpower and haste stacking since I never really had problems with proccing Lunar but now keeping my haste favourizing gearing method I really feel I'm having a problem with the RNG

This is due to a combination of lack of crit on T8 pieces, loss of 5% crit from 4t7, and loss of 5% crit due to the improved scorch nerf. If you want to return to the 'better' level of crit from prior to 3.1, you'll need about 10% more crit than you currently have, which probably isn't going to happen (unless you stack crit to the detriment of better pieces). It may also be that you're just noticing those times when eclipse is slow to proc - occaisionally I notice that it takes a long time to proc eclipse (30 seconds+) but it may only be once during a raiding night, while the entire rest of the time eclipse is proccing at a perfectly reasonable rate. Sure, it's annoying for that one eclipse, but in context of the whole time spent raiding it's really a very low percentage of eclipses that take a long time to proc with a reasonable crit rate (~25% raid buffed in moonkin form on the character sheet, or 40% crit on starfire/wrath).

Remember that for Hodir although you gain 5% crit from 4t7, you're losing the 2t8 bonus making starfire under eclipse less likely to crit. Considering the duration of buffs available in the fight, I'd rather be able to make better use of the 15 second period of eclipse than have a 5% increased crit rate generally.

Anecdotally has anyone else noticed the Starlight on Hodir allowing <1 second GCD? I could swear I was chaining wraths at 0.7 seconds cast time yesterday while in it without queuing problems, when normally I notice issues with queuing at ~0.8 seconds cast time under bloodlust. Unfortunately I can't provide any proof of this, so it'll have to wait for next week for me to check.

Moonkin Kai · 05/08/09, 5:13 AM

Hodir is a fight where crit scales insanely well due to Storm Power and haste badly due to Starlight though, so taking Hodir as an example isn't the best idea.

Lilija · 05/08/09, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

This is due to a combination of lack of crit on T8 pieces, loss of 5% crit from 4t7, and loss of 5% crit due to the improved scorch nerf. If you want to return to the 'better' level of crit from prior to 3.1, you'll need about 10% more crit than you currently have, which probably isn't going to happen (unless you stack crit to the detriment of better pieces). It may also be that you're just noticing those times when eclipse is slow to proc - occaisionally I notice that it takes a long time to proc eclipse (30 seconds+) but it may only be once during a raiding night, while the entire rest of the time eclipse is proccing at a perfectly reasonable rate. Sure, it's annoying for that one eclipse, but in context of the whole time spent raiding it's really a very low percentage of eclipses that take a long time to proc with a reasonable crit rate (~25% raid buffed in moonkin form on the character sheet, or 40% crit on starfire/wrath).

Counting in all raid buffs my 2xT8 gear set has around 38% crit chance on wrath raid buffed. The thing is tho I am kinda afraid to switch out any item with crit on if the alternative doesn't have crit too. The thing is the best spellpower items are usually also haste items. For example, I am using [Footsteps of Malygos] at the moment. Now I can't really decide if I should spend all that gold for crafts and get [Boots of Wintry Endurance] or maybe [Spellslinger's Slippers] or wait for when we start doing hard mode Leviathan and make some clothies unhappy and take [Boots of Fiery Resolution]. I know the last boots are quite superior to the rest but that again means losing crit.

Remember that for Hodir although you gain 5% crit from 4t7, you're losing the 2t8 bonus making starfire under eclipse less likely to crit. Considering the duration of buffs available in the fight, I'd rather be able to make better use of the 15 second period of eclipse than have a 5% increased crit rate generally.

The problem lies mainly in proccing eclipse on this particular fight. Each time I tried to focus on proccing Lunar eclipse my dps was really miserable even when counting in bad luck with getting all the buffs. When I skipped eclipse at all and just spammed Starfire and focused on getting the buffs I had much better results. Now I do understand that Lunar eclipse + haste buff + crit dmg buff is a win but it's also very hard to get all 3 of those - happend to me once per few tries

Anecdotally has anyone else noticed the Starlight on Hodir allowing <1 second GCD? I could swear I was chaining wraths at 0.7 seconds cast time yesterday while in it without queuing problems, when normally I notice issues with queuing at ~0.8 seconds cast time under bloodlust. Unfortunately I can't provide any proof of this, so it'll have to wait for next week for me to check.

Hmm... on Hodir I haven't noticed (maybe because there is so much going on I wasn't paying attention) but I did on Vezax ^^

sulliwan · 05/08/09, 6:05 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Anecdotally has anyone else noticed the Starlight on Hodir allowing <1 second GCD? I could swear I was chaining wraths at 0.7 seconds cast time yesterday while in it without queuing problems, when normally I notice issues with queuing at ~0.8 seconds cast time under bloodlust. Unfortunately I can't provide any proof of this, so it'll have to wait for next week for me to check.

I actually checked it with both bloodlust and without with getspellcooldown() and it was exactly 1sec in both cases.

Forgot to tell you last night

Druidbomb · 05/08/09, 8:04 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Anecdotally has anyone else noticed the Starlight on Hodir allowing <1 second GCD? I could swear I was chaining wraths at 0.7 seconds cast time yesterday while in it without queuing problems, when normally I notice issues with queuing at ~0.8 seconds cast time under bloodlust. Unfortunately I can't provide any proof of this, so it'll have to wait for next week for me to check.

I threw on my crit heavy gear rather then my hast stuff, and sat in the haste buff on hodir and just spammed starfire. Good lord so much damage.

Poromu · 05/08/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Anecdotally has anyone else noticed the Starlight on Hodir allowing <1 second GCD? I could swear I was chaining wraths at 0.7 seconds cast time yesterday while in it without queuing problems, when normally I notice issues with queuing at ~0.8 seconds cast time under bloodlust. Unfortunately I can't provide any proof of this, so it'll have to wait for next week for me to check.

I was definately clipping when trying to proc lunar eclipse with wrath, when they poped hero while I was in the moonlight, I was clipping GCD with starfire.