Moonkin Raiding - Page 89

Akrud · 10/10/09, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by qae

@Akrud

I fear it might be a bit more complicated than that.
You have to take into account than everytime you cast IS outside of an Eclipse, you delay the chance to proc the next Eclipse by at least 1sec (and don't forget it will lower your NG uptime).

So I don't think IS is worth using if you don't glyph it.

Exceptions would be when moving /having to dps a mob you are not facing (Yoggy)/waiting for an interrupt (Ignis, Freya).

Another time when you could use it is in Pre-lunar phase after seeing NG pop just before the wrath hit the target, so you can switch to SF if Lunar proc.

Yet another time could be queued with the last Starfire of your Lunar Eclipse (the one that will probably proc Solar thanks to WiseEclipse). It let you go back to Starfire fast if you are really unlucky and didnt proc Solar.

Yeah I agree, hard to calcute NG damage assuming a crit, though

• Hamlet · 10/10/09, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by Akrud

My guild was wanting the 3% debuff for when it WAS up

Then this is a useless discussion, because you should be keeping IS up all the time anyway.

Unglyphed IS is very nearly a wash for DPS (slightly positive or slight negative depending on stats). Since the DPS difference is negligible, you should choose the option that gives a nice raid benefit by keeping IS up to apply the debuff. And if you do have the Glyph, should be keeping IS up anyway because now it's always the best DPS. In no case is there any reason to not be putting IS up.

Calmwind · 10/10/09, 10:00 AM

So I've been looking at the new T10 bonus's and I can't help but wonder how good the 2 piece is, anyone have numbers on how often OOC will proc?

kavinsky · 10/10/09, 8:44 PM

See a page above or so. 1.5- 2.5 Procs Per Minute.

Or a 6% chance on cast. Just for some RNG fun.

kavinsky · 10/10/09, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

The preview art seems to have belts and boots: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...0_druid_hd.jpg .

Inc 2T8/2T9/4T10 BIS for Moonkin, yay.

Bear in mind though that the bracers / belt / boots only came about when SWP was added. BT was about the same size as the predicted ICC, so I'm certainly not assuming we'll get 8 options for T10.

Having off-set items that match the look would not surprise me however. Even if they probably will be resto items :S

nesf · 10/10/09, 11:44 PM

Turned up some odd numbers looking at Scale Factors tonight.

Using Simulation Craft my present scale factors with 511 haste are:


			
Scale Factors:

  Boidhre  Int=0.67  Spi=0.58  SP=1.65  Hit=2.36  Crit=1.26  Haste=1.37  Lag=0.00

Haste was much higher than I expected, so I ran a second simulation using Porom's profile since he's much better geared than I but importantly is stacking less haste (410) (same glyphs as me, slightly different build, both of us are using 2T8/2T9)


			
Scale Factors:

  Porom  Int=0.61  Spi=0.55  SP=1.70  Hit=3.48  Crit=1.04  Haste=1.26  Lag=0.00

Somehow, haste scales worse for him at 410 Haste than for me at 511 Haste. His Crit is so much lower because he's got far more crit than I do at 816 vs 536 so his Crit Scale factor makes sense but I can't see why his haste scaling factor is lower than mine, or why both are higher than Crit.

In the sample T8 characters done, Haste scales as one would expect given Arawethion's article but the above is quite different. My main reason for posting this is if the scale factors for the above are correct, are we thinking on the wrong lines in stacking crit after the haste soft cap? Intuitively it makes sense to stack crit but either the simulation is wrong (or wrongly configured by me but I don't think so*) or our thinking on how stats scale post-haste cap is wrong. Any thoughts on this?

*When I run the same test using the standard T9 Moonkin sample character (4T9) I get the expected Crit >> Haste at Haste soft cap.


			
Scale Factors:

  Druid_T9_58_00_13  Int=0.77  Spi=0.55  SP=1.71  Hit=3.94  Crit=1.52  Haste=1.15  Lag=0.00

SimulationCraft Output:


			
SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.2 ( iterations=20000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )



DPS Ranking:

   7446 100.0%  Raid

   7449  100.0%  Boidhre



Player: Boidhre tauren druid balance 80

  DPS: 7449.1  Error=2.6  Range=837  DPR=23.5  RPS=317.4/304.2  (mana)

  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=15370746

  Core Stats:  strength=372|104(8)  agility=353|86(8)  stamina=1490|1042(922)  intellect=1431|1068(910)  spirit=800|593(421)  health=22507|18027  mana=22731|19236

  Spell Stats:  power=3098|2364(2236)  hit=10.86%|10.86%(285)  crit=27.10%|19.93%(536)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=28.87%|19.16%(511)  mp5=0|0

  Attack Stats  power=1817|348(0)  hit=8.69%|8.69%(285)  crit=28.40%|20.19%(536)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=48.64%|20.26%(511)

  Defense Stats:  armor=3971|3437(3265)  blockv=0|0(0)  defense=400|400(0)  miss=7.70%|7.70%  dodge=12.69%|7.11%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=5.90%|5.90%

  Glyphs: starfire/insect_swarm/moonfire/thorns/aquatic_form/unburdened_rebirth

  Priorities:

    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/snapshot_stats

    faerie_fire/speed_potion/innervate,trigger=-2000/treants/starfall,skip_on_eclipse=1/starfire,instant=1

    moonfire/insect_swarm/wrath,eclipse=trigger/starfire,eclipse=benefit/wrath,eclipse=benefit

    starfire

  Actions:

    insect_swarm  Count= 20.3|14.9sec  DPE=  9363| 9%  DPET=  8473  DPR=  35.5  pDPS= 635  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=139  Tick=1369|1272|1721

    moonfire      Count= 13.9|22.1sec  DPE= 16381|10%  DPET= 14741  DPR=  24.2  pDPS= 759  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 336| 318| 396  Crit=  701|  666|  828|52.1%  TickCount=95  Tick=1476|1377|1816  CritTick=3080|2879|3795|52.0%

    starfall      Count=  3.8|96.4sec  DPE= 13257| 2%  DPET= 11700  DPR=  10.2  pDPS= 166  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=73  Tick=458|135|816  CritTick=956|282|1706|45.8%

    starfire      Count= 68.9| 4.2sec  DPE= 12562|39%  DPET=  6414  DPR=  24.6  pDPS=2886  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6658|6249|8531  Crit=13997|13061|17830|80.5%

    wrath         Count=112.5| 2.6sec  DPE=  7357|37%  DPET=  6875  DPR=  20.9  pDPS=2760  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4888|3445|6853  Crit=10214| 7200|14322|46.3%

   treants  (DPS=345.6)

    treant_melee  Count= 42.0| 5.1sec  DPE=  1734| 3%  DPET=  1191  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 243  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1780|1699|1948  Crit= 3559| 3398| 3897|8.2%  Glance=1335|24.0%  Dodge=4.7%

  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude

  Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/replenishment

  Dynamic Buffs:

    abyssal_rune          : start=6.8   refresh=0.0    interval= 48.4|48.4   uptime=22%  trigger=25%

    bloodlust             : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%

    eclipse_lunar         : start=8.2   refresh=0.0    interval= 37.7|37.7   uptime=40%  benefit=70%  trigger=60%

    eclipse_solar         : start=7.7   refresh=0.0    interval= 38.4|38.4   uptime=37%  benefit=68%

    lightweave_embroidery : start=5.1   refresh=0.0    interval= 62.6|62.6   uptime=25%  trigger=35%

    lunary_fury           : start=2.3   refresh=64.5   interval=106.2|4.4    uptime=97%  trigger=70%

    natures_grace         : start=33.3  refresh=114.9  interval=  9.0|2.0    uptime=83%  benefit=87%

    omen_of_clarity       : start=12.6  refresh=0.0    interval= 21.7|21.7   uptime= 6%  benefit= 5%  trigger= 6%

    sundial_of_the_exiled : start=6.0   refresh=0.0    interval= 54.2|54.2   uptime=20%  trigger=10%

  Procs:

    220.8 |   1.76sec : judgement_of_wisdom

  Gains:

     6255.4 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=4.3%)

    22596.0 : initial_mana          

    15290.4 : judgement_of_wisdom   

    51590.8 : moonkin_form            (overflow=1.2%)

     5645.7 : omen_of_clarity       

    13082.0 : replenishment           (overflow=3.9%)

     5013.6 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=3.1%)

  Scale Factors:

    Weights :  Int=0.67  Spi=0.58  SP=1.65  Hit=2.36  Crit=1.26  Haste=1.37

    Wowhead : http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=ub=11;gm=4;gb=1;wt=23:24:123:119:96:103;wtv=0.67:0.58:1.65:2.36:1.26:1.37;



Auras and De-Buffs:

  Constant: abominations_might/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/crypt_fever/curse_of_elements/earth_and_moon

  Constant: elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire/ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/heart_of_the_crusader

  Constant: hunters_mark/improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds

  Constant: insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle

  Constant: master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth

  Constant: sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot

  Constant: unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air

  Dynamic:



Waiting:

    All players active 100% of the time.



Baseline Performance:

  TotalEvents   = 41639530

  MaxEventQueue = 20

  TargetHealth  = 2229461

  SimSeconds    = 6000664

  CpuSeconds    = 12.719

  SpeedUp       = 471787

Poromu · 10/11/09, 1:44 AM

The important thing to draw from that really is that when we get into 4pct9 the demand for crit will be greater than the demand for haste, since we'll lose out being this close to lunar crit cap.

nesf · 10/11/09, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

The important thing to draw from that really is that when we get into 4pct9 the demand for crit will be greater than the demand for haste, since we'll lose out being this close to lunar crit cap.

Agreed, I still find it very odd though that your scaling for crit is that low and that haste beats it by so much.

Poromu · 10/11/09, 3:49 AM

Well that probably has a lot to do with the lunar crit cap.

Since we got Anub25 it's just a matter of time til I dump 2pct8 for 4pct9.258 so i'm just trying to take advantage of hitting lunar crit cap while I can. Mostly since it's just fun.

M� nze · 10/11/09, 5:18 AM

@ nesf
i got Int=0.66 Spi=0.56 SP=1.65 Hit=2.34 Crit=1.08 Haste=1.30 after running simcraft with my 440 haste an i also thought,this might be some kind of wrong scalefactor for haste,so i used Hamlet's spreedsheet and got the following numbers : int = 0.69 spi=0.56 sp=1,66 hit=0 crit=1.32 haste=0.79 which seemed to make more sense to me.

nesf · 10/11/09, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by M� nze

@ nesf
i got Int=0.66 Spi=0.56 SP=1.65 Hit=2.34 Crit=1.08 Haste=1.30 after running simcraft with my 440 haste an i also thought,this might be some kind of wrong scalefactor for haste,so i used Hamlet's spreedsheet and got the following numbers : int = 0.69 spi=0.56 sp=1,66 hit=0 crit=1.32 haste=0.79 which seemed to make more sense to me.

That's the core of my question, why am I getting far different results to what one would intuitively expect from the simulation than the spreadsheet? Surely they should at least be in the same ballpark? (the scale factor for haste halving in your example is a major difference).

Akrud · 10/11/09, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Then this is a useless discussion, because you should be keeping IS up all the time anyway.

Unglyphed IS is very nearly a wash for DPS (slightly positive or slight negative depending on stats). Since the DPS difference is negligible, you should choose the option that gives a nice raid benefit by keeping IS up to apply the debuff. And if you do have the Glyph, should be keeping IS up anyway because now it's always the best DPS. In no case is there any reason to not be putting IS up.

I redid all the math with the IS glyph and came up with these results, thank you. The reason I was going the route that I went was for a compromise, in which cases, didn't really help the tank at the times we needed it.

Int=0.62 Spi=0.52 SP=1.51 Hit=1.50 Crit=1.14 Haste=1.24 Lag=0.00 @ 417 haste, just contributing if you wanted more (this was simcraft)

Curlymon · 10/13/09, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by kavinsky

Bear in mind though that the bracers / belt / boots only came about when SWP was added. BT was about the same size as the predicted ICC, so I'm certainly not assuming we'll get 8 options for T10.

Hyjal has 5 bosses.
BT has 9 bosses. 13 if you count all individual aspects.
Sunwell has 6 bosses. 9 If you count all individual aspects

That would be 20 Boss fights and 27 total aspects.

Blizzard has stated that ICC has at least 31 Bosses(aspects). Since we don't know the groupings of them we can only speculate. Since ICC has more aspects then Hyjal, BT and Sunwell combined, I'm going to personally lean towards 8 piece t10 sets as a good possibility.

Malpercio · 10/13/09, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Curlymon

Hyjal has 5 bosses.
BT has 9 bosses. 13 if you count all individual aspects.
Sunwell has 6 bosses. 9 If you count all individual aspects

That would be 20 Boss fights and 27 total aspects.

Blizzard has stated that ICC has at least 31 Bosses(aspects). Since we don't know the groupings of them we can only speculate. Since ICC has more aspects then Hyjal, BT and Sunwell combined, I'm going to personally lean towards 8 piece t10 sets as a good possibility.

The 31 bosses was taken back, there are a total of 12 bosses in Icecrown.

Beargarden · 10/13/09, 9:30 PM

They've released the idol's and relic's and such, and the Balance Druid one is:

The periodic damage from your Insect Swarm and Moonfire spells grants 44 critical strike rating for 15 sec. Stacks up to 5 times.

I can't imagine how this one will work, if it will have a cooldown between each stack (like Reign of the Dead), or if it will be a 100% uptime thing, like the i245 idol. If it's the later, this will be an incredibly ridiculous idol that will always have a 100% uptime.

• Hamlet · 10/13/09, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Beargarden

They've released the idol's and relic's and such, and the Balance Druid one is:

The periodic damage from your Insect Swarm and Moonfire spells grants 44 critical strike rating for 15 sec. Stacks up to 5 times.

I can't imagine how this one will work, if it will have a cooldown between each stack (like Reign of the Dead), or if it will be a 100% uptime thing, like the i245 idol. If it's the later, this will be an incredibly ridiculous idol that will always have a 100% uptime.

I'm assuming it's the latter; it's just a slight buff to the current one. 220 crit instead of 200.

thedopefishlives · 10/13/09, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I'm assuming it's the latter; it's just a slight buff to the current one. 220 crit instead of 200.

And it'll be a flat 220 crit rating, as opposed to the ridiculously high uptime (but not 100%) of the current idol. An upgrade, but not a massive one.

Edit: Rawr, which mainly models stand-and-nuke fights for the present, shows a 20 dps upgrade from Lunar Fury to the as-yet-unnamed idol. As I said, an upgrade, but nothing gamebreaking. I do think its quick ramping time and 100% chance to stack make it clearly superior, but the theoretical dps increase is marginal.

Beargarden · 10/13/09, 10:40 PM

i think it'll be a nice upgrade for people who have crappy luck with uptimes, even if you always have moonfire up. two dots up now will make it just that much easier to keep up.

qae · 10/14/09, 12:36 AM

When you compare with the other T10 relics, ours also have a really short"ramping" time (6sec for 5 stacks assuming MF+IS), which is sweet.

Grendelle · 10/14/09, 5:04 AM

I know that the 2-T8, 2-T9 is the way to go. With head and chest being T9, shoulders/legs T8.
Unfortunately, I do not have access to T8 (226) shoulders at the moment, with my guild no longer running ulduar.
My question is: Can I substitute in my T8 (219) in for my shoulder slot and still maintain a viable dps increase over the 4P-T9?

On a side note... Am I the only one who is a little let down by our 2/4P-T10? and the new Idol?
Hopefully it's an 8 piece set so we can 2-T8, 2-T9, and 4-T10

I'm including a link to my armory, please look it over and let me know if there is any glaring missteps or if you have any suggestions.

P.S. I know I'm way over hitcap atm, I am working to bring it down.

The World of Warcraft Armory

kavinsky · 10/14/09, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Beargarden

The periodic damage from your Insect Swarm and Moonfire spells grants 44 critical strike rating for 15 sec. Stacks up to 5 times.

Underwhelming, very, very, very underwhelming. Probably be the last thing I buy, T10 wise, since it's 20 critical strike more than the T9 one, and the T9 one also has almost a 100% uptime, at least from my experiences with raiding.

Seeing a pattern with idols - T7 (165 Starfire SP) was damn good. T8 (384 IS SP) was laughable. T9 (200 Crit 85% on Moonfire tick) was the best idol I've ever seen. T10 (44 Crit / IS | MF tick) is reasonable, but hardly that much of an upgrade.

Definitely not seeing the wow factor here.

kavinsky · 10/14/09, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by Grendelle

Can I substitute in my T8 (219) in for my shoulder slot and still maintain a viable dps increase over the 4P-T9?

Yes. There is (obviously) a slight stat's loss over the 226 T8, but the DPS increase from the 2 set is still a honky-tonk load more than you lose through those few stats.

Celdhyrean · 10/14/09, 1:20 PM

What's more is that (playing around with Rawr) using the ideal combination, the T8.10 shoulders still came out over the other non-ideal T8.25 item.

Beargarden · 10/14/09, 1:30 PM

I was playing around in Rawr today, and I noticed that [Living Flame] was rated pretty high (like in the top 5, without a doubt was in the top 10 on my Rawr, but I can't remember right now.)

Now my question is, would it be more viable to drop some more of my haste by switching [Icehowl Binding] with [Belt of the Bloodhoof Emissary] (while also dropping my hit rating boots for [Boots of the Harsh Winter]), and then switching out Sundial for [Living Flame]. I'd try and do my own work with SimCraft, but for the life of me I can't get that to work.

Akrud · 10/14/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Beargarden

I was playing around in Rawr today, and I noticed that [Living Flame] was rated pretty high (like in the top 5, without a doubt was in the top 10 on my Rawr, but I can't remember right now.)

Now my question is, would it be more viable to drop some more of my haste by switching [Icehowl Binding] with [Belt of the Bloodhoof Emissary] (while also dropping my hit rating boots for [Boots of the Harsh Winter]), and then switching out Sundial for [Living Flame]. I'd try and do my own work with SimCraft, but for the life of me I can't get that to work.

Living flame is a rather bad trinket, i'd recommend getting dying curse over it. When your using rawr, are you applying raid buffs or are you just going off your basic gear? relook at it with raid buffs if you haven't