Moonkin Raiding - Page 9

• Arawethion · 12/26/08, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

As much as I prefer not feeding trolls, I would actually quite like to get into a debate on this. The value of haste has been bugging me - I don't really go all out to stack it (I prefer split crit/haste items), but I'd like to put a value on each in real situations. I've always preferred the "real" approach over the theorycrafting one, as sometimes theorycraft just doesn't add up due to having to simplify particular mechanics.

Crit provides:
- Double Damage on Starfire/Wrath crits (and starfall/hurricane/typhoon in AoE situations) on a RNG powered system
- Mana return
- 0.5 seconds reduction of cast time
- Better/faster eclipse proc rate

Haste provides:
- A guarenteed faster casting time on all spells until the GCD cap is reached (effectively unattainable for all spells other than Wrath with NG, unless under bloodlust).

You need ~46 crit rating per 1% crit, while you need ~33 haste rating per 1% crit, which makes haste 1.4 times more valuable in pure percentage terms than crit. The question is, do the actual in game benefits make crit 1.4 times more valuable than haste?

One of the issues with haste is that there is a break-point for each fight and eclipse rotation as to where a specific amount becomes more valuable. For example with eclipse there is a point where x amount of haste will allow you to cast one more spell within the eclipse. Obviously this is hard to model due to the expected number of crits providing NG, which means there's actually a lot of break points dependant on how many crits you get. One of the fights where I find this has most of an effect is Heigan, as once you get to enough haste you can easily weave wrath casts in between movement.

It is also true that most fights are not long enough for the randomness of crits to balance out. Haste meanwhile provides a very real exact benefit to all spells all the time.

Unfortunately I don't think I can actually put a value on which is better, but from experience I prefer haste over crit in those instances where I have to choose. I still put spellpower as my highest priority though.

The model in Adoriele's spreadsheet favors haste by a good bit, which I think jives with most people's experience.

If we just want to try some envelope math, though:
Note that a crit does 2.09x damage and (effectively) takes 5/6 as long as a hit (for Starfire). So if you're critting at 50% (seems typical for a raid), 100 casts gives 50 crits and 50 hits, doing 154.5 damage in 91.7 time. Going up to 51% crit makes you deal 155.59 damage in 91.5 time. A DPS increase of about 0.89%.
1% haste increases your DPS by 1/(1+H), where H is your total haste% from rating. So 0.87 to 0.9% for typical gear ranges.

The large difference in the value to your Starfire spam should be enough to decide the question--haste is going to be about 1.4 times as effective. The numbers will be slightly different for Wrath spam, due to NG clipping, but not nearly enough to tilt the scale when you're casting Wrath well under 1/3 of the time.

----------

The effect from shortened Eclipse cycles will be of yet a smaller order of magnitude. Again assuming 50% crit, 1% more increases your chance to Eclipse with Wrath from 30% to 30.6%.

Assuming chance E to proc Eclipse, the chance of a proc on precisely the nth cast is:
$E(1-E)^{n-1}$ .
The expected number of casts to proc is then:
$\frac{E}{1-E}\sum_{n=1}^{\inf} {n(1-E)^n}$ ,
Which converges to 1/E.*

So the 1% crit gives 1/.306 - 1/.300 = 0.06 fewer Wrath casts per cycle. On the order of a tenth of a second in a 30+ second cycle, which will be dwarfed by the gains in Starfire spam DPS discussed above.

Also, 1% haste would save 1/.3*0.01= 0.03 effective Wrath casts anyway.

*I'm handwaving this for now. It would be cool if someone could remind me how to prove it.

Starfox · 12/27/08, 1:05 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Assuming chance E to proc Eclipse, the chance of a proc on precisely the nth cast is:
$E(1-E)^{n-1}$ .
The expected number of casts to proc is then:
$\frac{E}{1-E}\sum_{n=1}^{\inf} {n(1-E)^n}$ ,
Which converges to 1/E.*
*I'm handwaving this for now. It would be cool if someone could remind me how to prove it.

the math

E .. Chance to procc eclipse = Crit% * 0.6
Chance to procc on cast
$1: E$
$2: E(1-E)$
$3: E(1-E)^2$
$n: E(1-E)^{n-1}$
expectation value: $Wrathcasts = \sum\limits_{i=1}^{\infty}Ei(1-E)^{i-1}$

Multiplying every summand with $1-E$ gives an "easy" to solve geometric series, and dividing the that by $1-E$ gives us the EV from our series
$Wrathcasts =\frac{1}{1-E} \sum\limits_{i=1}^{\infty}Ei(1-E)^{i-1}(1-E)$

$Wrathcasts =\frac{1}{1-E} \sum\limits_{i=1}^{\infty}Ei(1-E)^{i}$

$i=0 \rightarrow E\cdot0\cdot(1-E)^0 = 0$

$Wrathcasts =\frac{E}{1-E} \sum\limits_{i=0}^{\infty}i(1-E)^{i}$

With our everyday mathskill we solve that with the widely known $\sum\limits_{i=0}^{\infty}i(q)^{i} = \frac{q}{(1-q)^2}$ :P
$Wrathcasts =\frac{E}{1-E} \frac{1-E}{(1-(1-E))^2}$

$Wrathcasts =\frac{E}{1-E} \frac{1-E}{E^2}$

$Wrathcasts = \frac{1}{E}} = \frac{1}{Crit\%\cdot0.6}$

Woodlum · 12/29/08, 6:55 PM

Is there a macro or some way to place targeting circles and cast the associated spell with a single button push; i.e. hurricane or treants, on top of yourself or in any given static position... say like 30 yards to the front? I really hate having to bother with using the mouse for that and I feel like it is costing me cast time and it also feels like a hinderance to my movement.

dukes · 12/29/08, 7:29 PM

You can pre-cast the spells e.g. start a starfire cast, hit the button for hurricane/treants and position it, then actually cast it ~0.2 seconds before starfire ends. You then have a continuous stream of casting, instead of having to wait for the previous cast to complete.

Tarranus · 12/30/08, 5:32 AM

All the balance threads are starting to meld into one another, but out of curiosity. Assuming you are now an eclipse moonkin, and your SF-eclipse has just faded. What do you cast in the intertemporal period where u cannot proc another eclipse, SF correct?

spartakos · 12/30/08, 6:07 AM

It depends on your mana and the duration of your moonfire dot. If both are covered go for wrath.

Trouble · 12/30/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by spartakos

It depends on your mana and the duration of your moonfire dot. If both are covered go for wrath.

Are you sure about this? I would think Starfall is what you want to be casting as often as possible due to not clipping the GCD. I would also think your Idol choice factors into this. If you have been able to get the Starfall idol you would have even more incentive to cast Starfall.

Humbaba · 12/30/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Trouble

Are you sure about this? I would think Starfall is what you want to be casting as often as possible due to not clipping the GCD. I would also think your Idol choice factors into this. If you have been able to get the Starfall idol you would have even more incentive to cast Starfall.

You mean Starfire, right?

• Adoriele · 12/30/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Trouble

Are you sure about this? I would think Starfall is what you want to be casting as often as possible due to not clipping the GCD. I would also think your Idol choice factors into this. If you have been able to get the Starfall idol you would have even more incentive to cast Starfall.

s/fall/fire/g, but yes. Although generally you're going to want to use the idol the matches your main nuke (unless you happen to have Raven Goddess, which is still better in Naxx for raid DPS contribution). At end Naxx, even assuming no penalty on Wrath for clipping the GCD (as relates to spell queueing, you're still capped at 1s cast anyway) your Starfire spell will have a higher DPET than Wrath in all cases (though it's close, with about 30 DPET difference in my default end-Naxx set). Starfire does scale better, though, so your mileage may vary with lower levels of gear.

If you'd like to double-check which is the better nuke for you, the DPET calculations in WC should give you a good idea. If you'd like to check scaling numbers, set your cast cycle to SF Spam and W Spam and check the scaling calcs on the first page (you should probably remove Eclipse from your talent spec temporarily, as that will give you merged results). Interestingly, it looks like they scale almost exactly the same with Spellpower, though of course Wrath scales much less with other stats, especially with Haste where it gets less than half the benefit that Starfire does. Also obviously it scales much more poorly with Latency.

dukes · 12/30/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

(unless you happen to have Raven Goddess, which is still better in Naxx for raid DPS contribution).

Correction, better in 25 mans. In 10 mans, assuming a non-stacked group, then the Shooting Star idol will still be better, although any mage will probably love you for using Raven Goddess (crit scales insanely well for a deep fire FFB mage).

• Adoriele · 12/30/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

Correction, better in 25 mans. In 10 mans, assuming a non-stacked group, then the Shooting Star idol will still be better, although any mage will probably love you for using Raven Goddess (crit scales insanely well for a deep fire FFB mage).

This is true.

Woodlum · 12/30/08, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

You can pre-cast the spells e.g. start a starfire cast, hit the button for hurricane/treants and position it, then actually cast it ~0.2 seconds before starfire ends. You then have a continuous stream of casting, instead of having to wait for the previous cast to complete.

Valid simple solution which I am currently using for the interim but that still doesn't defeat the silly circle drawing when the mouse is desirable for other functions and it would be far more convenient to push-button spawn the effect if some sort of macro for that were available. I'm sure the issue isn't moonkin specific.

Comp · 12/31/08, 3:54 AM

I posted a WWS earlier when I had worse gear. I made a few upgrades and have been trying to optimize my rotation/spec and what not.

Here is the report from the night in naxx. We had some heavy lag so some of the fights and attempts show that. But I hope there is enough there to see where I go wrong. Wow Web Stats

I appreciate any help. Thanks

• Arawethion · 12/31/08, 4:12 AM

Here's a parse from our first Tuesday without huge lag, if anyone wants to look or compare:
Wow Web Stats

Note that I accidentally hit a solar Eclipse once. It's not a big DPS loss, just wanted to point out that without those 15 seconds, Wrath would have been a significantly smaller percentage of the total damage.

-----

One thing I was thinking about during the raid--if you're far from the boss, you need to switch from SF to Wrath a bit before the end of the Eclipse cooldown, due to the travel time (since you want Wraths to start hitting the boss as soon as the ICD is up).

So if you're standing at a distance, the post-Eclipse part of your cycle is effectively shortened and the pre-Eclipse part lengthened. I'm not sure if there's a significant DPS effect here, as the DPS of non-Eclipsed Wrath and SF are so similar anyway. But there might be some minor ways in which this can help analyze the most efficient cycles.

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@Comp:
You're doing pretty well for your gear, I think (especially since it looks you you still had the Moonfire idol for Patchwerk). I did 4800 today with about 130 more spellpower and 150 more haste, and the idol.

Your IS uptime was very low. I generally get 2 IS casts in per Eclipse cycle--essentially refreshing it when it goes down except during Eclipse.

Looking at the first few seconds of your log, it seems you're using solar (Wrath) eclipses. Try switching to a rotation based on Eclipsed Starfires (see my log above for an example).

You opened with:
MF
SF crit, proccing solar eclipse
SF
SF
IS
spam W

This is weak--you've wasted much of the Eclipse. I haven't seen detailed discussion of this, but I've been prioritizing correct Eclipse rotations over maximally extended Moonfires. The beginning of a fight for me (and the beginning of many cycles mid-fight) looks like:
IS
MF
W until lunar Eclipse
SF <-- this nearly always is in time to extend the starting MF.
spam SF through Eclipse

In general, the best time to refresh DoT's is during the Eclipse CD. I usually cast IS right as Eclipse ends, so it fades in time to cast it again just as I'm switching from SF to Wrath to proc Eclipse for the next cycle. Moonfire is typically fully extended during Eclipse, fades during Eclipse, is refreshed again when Eclipse fades, is extended during the Eclipse ICD and then, depending on luck with the Eclipse proc, is refreshed either during Eclipse or immediately before it. I still have to tweak this a bit to avoid clipping, but it generally does a pretty good job of minimizing DoT recasts during time-sensitive parts of the cycle.

Humbaba · 12/31/08, 11:23 AM

I know I'm still below the spell hit cap, so I'm not surprised when I see partial resists, but both of you guys appear to be capped (with shadow priests preset) and you're still seeing resists. I thought 17% overcame all resists now?

• Adoriele · 12/31/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

I know I'm still below the spell hit cap, so I'm not surprised when I see partial resists, but both of you guys appear to be capped (with shadow priests preset) and you're still seeing resists. I thought 17% overcame all resists now?

No. Pre-3.0, spell misses were categorized as 'resists' even though they were a separate mechanic. Spell Hit only deals with those misses, as it always did, so the true partial resists still occur. As far as I know, nothing, not even Spell Pen, can affect those.

dukes · 12/31/08, 11:38 AM

Partial resists are similar to glancing blows in WotLK. For every level above you that a mob is, you see a 10% reduction in spell damage, on some percentage of spells cast. From WWS's that I've looked at, boss mobs will generally mitigate about 4-5% of all spell damage done to them. You see partial resists quite a lot, in other words, and it isn't tied to mob resistances.

17% does overcome all "misses" though.

edit:beaten.

Lilija · 01/01/09, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

One thing I was thinking about during the raid--if you're far from the boss, you need to switch from SF to Wrath a bit before the end of the Eclipse cooldown, due to the travel time (since you want Wraths to start hitting the boss as soon as the ICD is up).

So if you're standing at a distance, the post-Eclipse part of your cycle is effectively shortened and the pre-Eclipse part lengthened. I'm not sure if there's a significant DPS effect here, as the DPS of non-Eclipsed Wrath and SF are so similar anyway. But there might be some minor ways in which this can help analyze the most efficient cycles.

I have noticed very similar thing. In fact I am recently trying to alter my rotation a bit. Basicly, I don't refresh DoTs after eclipse ends - I wait till it's about 4sec till eclipse CD is off and then apply DoTs and start spamming wrath ... quite often it happens that eclipse procces just after CD ends. Now as for the dps loss from not refreshing DoTs just after lunar eclipse ends - I noticed that when I did refresh them I usually ended up with no DoT during lunar eclipse. So in a long run it seemed it's either DoTs up during eclipse or outside it - I find first option more benefitial.

Can't really tell if this approach gives much more dps but it is definitly easier to controll.

As for one other interesting observation. I recently switched to solar eclipse on Loatheb since with the spore crit bonus my starfires crit most of the time anyway so I gues more spellpower on wrath is more worth than additional 15% crit ^^

Zipporah · 01/01/09, 7:31 PM

I'm currently a restoration druid and after having tried Naxx 10 as a balance druid and reading through all the pages of this thread, I'm quite interested in going for a balance spec as my main spec somewhere in the future (no earlier than having 4 balance T7 parts since those set bonuses look really good).
Now after talking to an officer about it he said there wasn't really any need for a boomkin in the raid (we have no balance druids yet so far, only a feral, myself as resto and 2 brand new resto druids). After I said that a boomkin also brings unique buffs to the raid, he seemed convinced that most or all of that is already brought to the raid by other classes like death knights or shamans. Since that was new info to me and I don't know those classes very well, I'd thought I'd come ask it here.

With Blizzard's new ideology of "bring the player, not the class" I'm not sure just how much of those raid-wide balance abilities can be found on other classes. I'll list up all the advantages that I can find from having a balance druid in the raid. Could someone explain just which abilities are also provided in raids by other classes? And also what spec is required for it or how common you see it. Also if any of the single target abilities don't work against bosses, please say so.

Insect Swarm -> -3% to hit penalty on the enemy target.
Improved Moonkin Aura -> +5% spell crit chance and +3% haste for raid members within 45 yards range.
Improved Faerie Fire -> +3% spell hit chance for anyone that hits the target.
Earth And Moon -> Wrath & Starfire debuff a target to take 13% more damage from spells.
Hurricane -> Increases the time between melee swings, ranged attacks and spell casts by 50%.
Hurricane Glyph -> Also decreases the movement speed by 20%.

And some other advantages I can think of that Balance druids bring to raids compaired to other DPS classes :
* Higher armor with a damage reduction ability (Barkskin) makes a slightly tougher caster.
* Possibility for emergency (self)heal.
* Respectable crowd control with Entangling Roots, Cyclone and Hybernate
* Innervate (can be given to other classes if needed).
* Rebirth.
* Cure curse.

• Adoriele · 01/01/09, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Zipporah

Insect Swarm -> -3% to hit penalty on the enemy target.
Improved Moonkin Aura -> +5% spell crit chance and +3% haste for raid members within 45 yards range.
Improved Faerie Fire -> +3% spell hit chance for anyone that hits the target.
Earth And Moon -> Wrath & Starfire debuff a target to take 13% more damage from spells.
Hurricane -> Increases the time between melee swings, ranged attacks and spell casts by 50%.
Hurricane Glyph -> Also decreases the movement speed by 20%.

IS can be covered by a Hunter using Scorpid Sting, though right now no one cares enough about the hit bonus to worry.
Moonkin Aura is provided by an Elemental Shammy's Elemental Oath, the improved part is covered by Swift Retribution from a Ret Pally.
iFF is covered by Shadow Priest's Misery, and it's much better to be put up by them, as it's a DPS loss for us.
E&M is covered by Ebon Plague from an Unholy DK, or CoE from an Aff Lock, though E&M is by far the best option here.
Hurricane is never considered for anything but AoE. You'll go OoM after 4 casts, typically, without any OoC procs, which leaves you the rest of the fight sitting around. Not worth it.

Piaf · 01/01/09, 10:04 PM

Edit : nvm

• Arawethion · 01/01/09, 10:08 PM

As a general matter, there are few class-unique buffs remaining (notable examples are Bloodlust, Wrath of Air, and Imp. Scorch/WC). As Adoriele said, Moonkin don't provide anything that can't be provided by another class. But that's true of nearly everyone in the raid. If you're running a reasonably balanced group, removing one person likely won't change anything, as their buffs will be covered by someone else.

Moonkin do cover a lot of synergies, however. Remind your raid leader that unless you're guaranteed to always have an Elem. Shaman, Ret Pally, and Shadow Priest in your raids, the Moonkin adds redundancy to important buffs. Innervate and Rebirth are both non-redundant benefits that no other DPS class brings. Most importantly though, you have to show him that Moonkin DPS is highly competitive. There are lots of parses around of 4500-5k DPS with good gear, which should be highly unlikely to leave you at the bottom of your raid's DPS meters.

Triks · 01/02/09, 1:53 AM

Wow Web Stats

3rd week raiding as moonkin, with some lag, any comments or anything i can improve :o

• Arawethion · 01/02/09, 3:06 AM

Originally Posted by Triks

Wow Web Stats

3rd week raiding as moonkin, with some lag, any comments or anything i can improve :o

Why Genesis over IFF? Also, you dropped the point in Moonglow for one in Genesis, indicating that you must really have no mana issues (as you're giving up a mana talent for an insignificant DPS increase), but you still keep 2/3 Intensity--seems incongruous.

• Adoriele · 01/02/09, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by Triks

Wow Web Stats

3rd week raiding as moonkin, with some lag, any comments or anything i can improve :o

302 Hit rating, with Misery going up and Balance of Power, is a waste of gear. You're a full 40 rating over the cap, I'd suggest finding a new non-hit weapon (it's your best bet). Other than that, fairly low IS uptime, though that might be from bad luck with timing it for Eclipse.