Moonkin Raiding - Page 90

dukes · 05/21/09, 4:29 PM

A lot of people have posted about Nightfall being the same mechanic in the WoW-forums thread. We'll just have to wait and see what comes out of it, there's no point bitching here for the close future.

Alerian · 05/21/09, 5:04 PM

Just to emphasize what Dukes posted - it's still too early to say how 4T8 will work out:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

The problem is that you can't modify a spell's cast time while the spell is already being cast. The tooltip is accurate... if frustrating.

We just talked about it and we might have a solution. It might not be hotfixable, but it shouldn't take until 3.2. We might lower the proc rate if we got it to work however. I'll try and update when we work it out.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Any news on moonkin 4pt8?

dukes · 05/21/09, 5:13 PM

And more (good) news!

But that isn't your next Starfire. That's the one after the next one. The cast time is determined when the cast begins but the spell itself exists when the casting ends.

Like I said, we might have a solution. The Nightfall one is a little complicated, but that may be what we do.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Any news on moonkin 4pt8?

treason · 05/21/09, 5:27 PM

Strange that blizzard would implement a set bonus they knew would not work half the time. I'm glad they're considering the nightfall route, though.

bodvarbjarki · 05/21/09, 6:02 PM

How about, instead of pointless whining, or assessing that the 4pc is "worthless", we put some more effort into theorycrafting how much it is worth as currently stands?

With a 15% proc on IS, you expect about one proc per IS. If you have good IS uptime (refeshing during Eclipse, etc.), then this is one proc per 15 sec. If you are casting SF ~ 2/3 of the time, then you get a useful proc every 45 sec. A proc yields a SF in a GCD (~ 1.25 sec hasted) rather than in the usual average casting time of ~ 2.3 sec. Thus you are "saved" 1.05 sec per 45 sec, giving a dps increase of around 2.3%. This corresponds to 115-140 dps for sustained 5k-6k dps.

With no ICD, the dps value of the proc scales directly with IS uptime.

Starfox · 05/21/09, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by bodvarbjarki

How about, instead of pointless whining, or assessing that the 4pc is "worthless", we put some more effort into theorycrafting how much it is worth as currently stands?

With a 15% proc on IS, you expect about one proc per IS. If you have good IS uptime (refeshing during Eclipse, etc.), then this is one proc per 15 sec. If you are casting SF ~ 2/3 of the time, then you get a useful proc every 45 sec. A proc yields a SF in a GCD (~ 1.25 sec hasted) rather than in the usual average casting time of ~ 2.3 sec. Thus you are "saved" 1.05 sec per 45 sec, giving a dps increase of around 2.3%. This corresponds to 115-140 dps for sustained 5k-6k dps.

With no ICD, the dps value of the proc scales directly with IS uptime.

   6085  20.2%  Druid_4T8_58_00_13_SF
   6044  20.1%  Druid_4T8_58_00_13_W_s
   6037  20.1%  Druid_4T8_58_00_13_W
   6010  20.0%  Druid_2T8_58_00_13_SF
   5868  19.5%  Druid_2T8_58_00_13_W

Exact same gear, just deactivated tier8_4pc.
Druid_4T8_58_00_13_W_s skips the instant if eclipse is up.
Compare those 65dps to a rogues 4pc bonus, +298dps, thx.
Way to go blizzard :C

• Hamlet · 05/21/09, 8:49 PM

Here's a version of WC with a quick first-order model of the live version of the bonus.

It adds to the DPS of Wrath with IS up (which already had its own computation due to IIS). Basically, for the W/IS and W/IS/Eclipse DPS computations, the new final DPS is given by:
P = GCD*0.15/2 //Fraction of time spent casting instant SF instead of Wrath.
NewDPS = P*SFDamage/GCD + (1-P)*OldDPS

This does not account for the extended Lunar cycle length due to procs in the Pre-Eclipse phase, and also assumes the IIS crit bonus is present for all bonus Starfires. So it slightly overestimates the bonus.

Using by current gear (in the spreadsheet/Armory), the bonus provides a ~120DPS gain with a switch to a Wrath filler. Again, slight overestimate since the current model can't take into account the possibility of missed Starfire extensions with a Wrath filler cycle.

Before you ask, it won't be at all easy to extend the current model to include the "fixed" version of the bonus--making SF spam DPS depend on the presence of IS would be a whole new dimension to add.

BobFromMarketing · 05/21/09, 9:28 PM

With the massive amount of non aura damage being directed at the entire raid in ulduar has anyone looked at going in with owlkin frenzy? I am going to be trying both that and a solar cycle despite being grossly over hit and haste capped for it.

Selini · 05/21/09, 9:35 PM

I still don't get what I do wrong at Hodir hard mode.

First it was "ok take moonbeams asap". This led to me running around too much and having a dps loss. Then it was "wait for storm cloud at the fire then take a moonbeam" again a dps loss since I didn't actually get the storm cloud.

Then there's the issue that even if I hug the fires, getting that damn eclipse to proc. So I'm feeling pretty frustrated by this, I've considered just forgoing eclipse and finding a beam and spamming starfire and dot refreshing but I don't know if in the long run that becomes a dps loss for me.

The other option again is gear crit since I'll be in a beam anyway but then my starfires would be slower as I don't really trust doing a solar rotation in this particular fight.

No matter what I seem to do my dps is way below average and it's starting to piss me off greatly.

Anyone have any tips on what I could be doing wrong?

spiritryu · 05/21/09, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by BobFromMarketing

With the massive amount of non aura damage being directed at the entire raid in ulduar has anyone looked at going in with owlkin frenzy? I am going to be trying both that and a solar cycle despite being grossly over hit and haste capped for it.

Here's an answer from page 51 of this thread.

Originally Posted by Arawethion

This is like the 10th Owlkin Frenzy post that lists every boss fight without doing even a basic bit of math to get any useful results out of it.

Let's say you want a DPS gain of 3% for 3 talent points (pretty typical rule of thumb for DPS talents). With a 10% buff, that means you need 30% uptime to be viable. With a 10 second duration, even ignoring overlaps, you'd need 3 procs every 100 seconds. At a 15% chance to proc, you need to be hit every 5 seconds for this to work. Pretty much no boss encounter has unavoidable things hitting you that frequently.

Hope that answers your question.

Originally Posted by Selini

I still don't get what I do wrong at Hodir hard mode.

First it was "ok take moonbeams asap". This led to me running around too much and having a dps loss. Then it was "wait for storm cloud at the fire then take a moonbeam" again a dps loss since I didn't actually get the moonbeam.

Then there's the issue that even if I hug the fires, getting that damn eclipse to proc. So I'm feeling pretty frustrated by this, I've considered just forgoing eclipse and finding a beam and spamming starfire and dot refreshing but I don't know if in the long run that becomes a dps loss for me.

The other option again is gear crit since I'll be in a beam anyway but then my starfires would be slower as I don't really trust doing a solar rotation in this particular fight.

No matter what I seem to do my dps is way below average and it's starting to piss me off greatly.

Anyone have any tips on what I could be doing wrong?

Try making your priority "moving as little as possible". Which means stand by a fire. That won't bring you the 10k dps or so you need for Hard mode, the rest relies on your luck with the Storm Power. For Hard Mode Hodir, your ranged should mostly be clumped anyways, so you only should have to move a few steps to grab the Storm Cloud if it's on someone in the ranged. Otherwise, keep dpsing and hope for the best. I usually stay away from Moonbeams because people like to clump there, thus bringing too many ice shards.

spiritryu · 05/21/09, 9:40 PM

deleted

Selini · 05/21/09, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by spiritryu

Try making your priority "moving as little as possible". Which means stand by a fire. That won't bring you the 10k dps or so you need for Hard mode, the rest relies on your luck with the Storm Power. For Hard Mode Hodir, your ranged should mostly be clumped anyways, so you only should have to move a few steps to grab the Storm Cloud if it's on someone in the ranged. Otherwise, keep dpsing and hope for the best. I usually stay away from Moonbeams because people like to clump there, thus bringing too many ice shards.

I was in on Hodir tonight for 2 tries only and both times I was fucked over cos I could not get eclipse up once after a decent amount of time. The first time I wore my usual kit 2x T8.5. The 2nd time I wore 4x T7.5 and both still resulted in mediocre dps for that fight - about 6k on average which is pathetic imo.

As for ranged clumping up, after an ice shard falls where we are and people move, the collapsing back to one spot doesn't happen.

In the end I just asked to be replaced since a RL was complaining on the dps and I had to berifly explain how RNG eclipse is.

Onto when you actually get storm cloud, do you try to proc eclipse first or just spam that starfire?

spiritryu · 05/21/09, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by Selini

I was in on Hodir tonight for 2 tries only and both times I was fucked over cos I could not get eclipse up once after a decent amount of time. The first time I wore my usual kit 2x T8.5. The 2nd time I wore 4x T7.5 and both still resulted in mediocre dps for that fight - about 6k on average which is pathetic imo.

As for ranged clumping up, after an ice shard falls where we are and people move, the collapsing back to one spot doesn't happen.

In the end I just asked to be replaced since a RL was complaining on the dps and I had to berifly explain how RNG eclipse is.

Onto when you actually get storm cloud, do you try to proc eclipse first or just spam that starfire?

Typically, I wrath about 2-3 times in hopes of an eclipse proc, after that I just proc Solar Eclipse, since the benefit is about the same. And I definitely use a Wild Magic pot instead of the usual Haste pot.

Poromu · 05/22/09, 1:24 AM

I wear my usual gear. I do my usual rotation (next to a fire and in a moonbeam if one is nearby.) If I see the opprotunity to get a storm buff, I hop into the nearest moon beam and spam SF with no reguard to eclipse/dots. This netted me 15k on our best attempt of the night, 8k on our worst attempts. We still didn't get it though. v.v Bad pally is bad.

• Hamlet · 05/22/09, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

I wear my usual gear. I do my usual rotation (next to a fire and in a moonbeam if one is nearby.) If I see the opprotunity to get a storm buff, I hop into the nearest moon beam and spam SF with no reguard to eclipse/dots. This netted me 15k on our best attempt of the night, 8k on our worst attempts. We still didn't get it though. v.v Bad pally is bad.

We just tried this for the first time tonight and my DPS was pretty terrible. Do you have your ranged positioned in such a way that Storm Power will be given to you without you having to worry about it? Also, I see you have 2T8--you don't try to get a Lunar Eclipse buff up during Storm Power? Or do frequent interruptions simply make it not worthwhile to invest in anything that requires you to try to set up a buff in advance like that?