With the current proc rate of 4p t8 I find myself wrathing a lot more, even during non-Hero/BL eclipses and most of the time during eclipse ICD, just to utilize those procs. It was so depressing to see procs eaten that I had to do something. Since it procs fairly often now I get streaks of it where I feel like a fire mage with Hot Streak, going wrath->SF, wrath->SF. On some fights I hardly care which eclipse I proc anymore since it's either more wrath damage or better chance for instant SF to crit. Once they fix the 4p and lower the proc I'll probably go back to W->SF->SF again. But until then, is anyone else doing this? I haven't really been able to come to any conclusion yet, but it *feels* like my dps range is larger, at the price of even more randomness than usual. It works well for movement fights since it's not always possible to get "perfect" stationary lunar eclipses and I suppose that could be the reason I don't see a big dps drop in Ulduar...

So, for theoretical dps, how does W->W/SF->W stand given 15% 4p procs and some judgement calls on when to just straight SF through lunar, tossing an extra SF on NG and such? Has someone modeled an average of it in WC or Rawr or mathed the highest potential of it given stars aligned and so forth?

When wearing 4xT8 and using a Wrath rotation, would you benefit more from wearing the Wrath idol or the Starfire idol?

I am doing the same, using starfire only to proc eclipse and spiting instant starfires, my starfire usage ends here. Althought i still prefer lunar during heroism or when fight is going to be long (mana issues).
I strickly keep with my eclipse rotation, meaning no random starfire pewpewing.

Wrath idol, considering you are wrathing during eclipse cd.

Check the latest spreadsheet I posted above, I think with the currently live version it's best to switch your filler to Wrath, Starfire during Eclipse, and use the SF Idol.

1. A Basic but Fundamental Question

Under "normal" stand-and-nuke conditions, Moonkin DPS relies on having the highest DoT uptime possible, whilst performing an Eclipse rotation.

However, such conditions rarely exist in Ulduar. Fights are more complex and interesting and "standing and nuking" is impossible due to multiple combat mechanics that need to be avoided, as well as adds that need to be dealt with.

Which brings me to this question:

When is applying DoTs worth the GCD and when should we just nuke Wrath/Starfire?

Whilst I always strive to have the highest DoT uptime possible on bosses, I never know what to do on adds and trash. If a mob has very low HP and dies fast (let's take the Razorscale healer mobs as example), is it worth it to apply MF/IS on it? Or will it die before enough ticks are applied?

How long does a mob have to live for, for the DoTs to be worth spending the GCD to cast them?

I realise that it's a very basic question, but I can't recall it being discussed anywhere, and my extremely limited understanding of maths prevents me from calculating it myself. If any more knowledgable theorycrafter would be able to provide an answer (even if a general, napkin math one), I would be very grateful.

2. No Glyph of Insect Swarm

I'm not saying that lacking it wasn't an error in that particular case, but lack of Glyph of Insect Swarm doesn't always have to be one. I don't glyph for it, on purpose, as I was asked by my raid leader to provide the 3% hit debuff for the raid.

3. Rotation

So that would mean:
Pre-Eclipse - Wrath
Eclipse - Starfire
Eclipse on CD - Wrath

Correct?

Two questions:

First of all, does it mean that you should aim for a bit more crit and a bit less Haste due to the amount of Wraths you are using? Or does most of your damage come from eclipsed Starfire anyhow, so that it shouldn't be an issue? Just worrying about Wraths getting clipped.

Secondly since most of the spells you will be casting will be Wraths, wouldn't the Wrath idol be a better choice? Or again is that because most of your damage comes from Starfire (and the DPS value of the SF idol doubles with crits) anyhow?

Finally, isn't Starfire during Eclipse CD still better if you are glyphed for it?

4. Talent Discussions

The conditions I am under at the moment:

- killed all bosses in Ulduar on non-Hard modes
- attempted Heroic Hard modes and successfully completed some Normal Hard modes
- gear is overall dissapointing (Armory shows solo gear, not my raid gear I'm afraid).

However, with the new Innervate (I always cast one on myself), I am never finding myself OOM. Even in 10-man raids.

Maybe that's partly my fault (not doing enough casts) but at the moment I am seriously considering going back to my pre 3.1 spec.

That would mean dropping all mana regen talents and give this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

However, once my guild starts attempting more Heroic Hard modes very seriously, fights will be getting much longer, healers might require my Innervate and OOM problems could possibly return. If they do, I would go with:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9901

3/3 Moonglow instead of taking Omen of Clarity because I use a Lunar rotation and keep a 100% uptime on Moonfire (two casts per Eclipse cycle) so prefer to take 0/2 Improved Moonfire and 3/3 Improved Insect Swarm to 2/2 Improved Moonfire and 2/3 Improved Insect Swarm, that I would have to if I took 1/1 Intensity.

Do I correctly assume that one point in Improved Insect Swarm is worth more than two points in Improved Moonfire under the conditions described above? (Having said that, since I have the Starfire glyph I probably should forego Moonfire clipping in any case)

3/3 Moonglow would also have the benefit of being the only talent helping on Vezax Hard mode (that we're currently aiming for on Normal mode).

I dont try for itemization and i can find a way to get to 400 haste if i swap out some gear. I also dont have that much to begin with. However, a few things you said are wrong...both the kt and ignis rings have crit as well as alot of crit and haste. You will probably have to use a 2 hander with no haste or a no haste cloak to get what you want. I have seen several people's BiS sets that come out to rright around 400 haste. You may not be able to do it right away, but if you itemize with it in mind you should be fine.

1. Very roughly, looking at my current spreadsheet numbers, IS/MF will beat the DPET of W/SF at around 4 ticks each.

2. Yeah, it's good to keep in mind.

3. I'm just going by the model I posted about above. It does slightly overvalue the W filler because it assumes Moonfire extension, but it's currently giving the W filler about a 50 DPS advantage. So it might be pretty close. Starfire Idol seems to have the edge in any case.

4. Trading 2 IMF for 2 Moonglow and trading 1 IIS for 1 OoC are roughly equivalent--each trades about 30 DPS for about 80 MP5. So it seems pretty reasonable to do either one and not the other. If you're not regularly able to Innervate yourself on long fights, doing both is probably good. With an Innervate, you should never have mana problems on any fight. OoC and Moonglow both help on Vezax, and I would imagine you'd certainly want both for the hardmode.

Probably brambles as dots aren't worth putting up and I don't think there's any unavoidable physical damage to warrant Owlkin Frenzy.

3/3 moonglow would be a must though.

Edit: Nevermind, was remembering old patch notes about magical damage not proccing OF.

I don't see how you'd get any use out of Owlkin. What's hitting you? On the other hand, Genesis is pretty useless too. What are you taking points out of from your normal spec?

So far I've dropped regen talents.

I also dropped celestial focus to try it out since I won't actively dps unless in Shadow Crash and my casting speed is already boosted in it so I figured I was safe to drop and test it. If I don't like the spec then I'll just rework the build to have CF in again.

As fo rthe owlkin part, I did tink maybe if I got lucky on the mark debuff proccing it but in theory no one should take damage from that so I just went with a point in Genesis to see how I do.

It's actually my dual spec atm on armory if it decides to update if you want to criticise it.

EDIT: Not 100% sure if I would need to unglyph IS for the hit debuff will ask later.
Also haven't actually gotten a spot for hard mode Vezax tries so far so hoping I can get to go tonight and try this spec out.

On hard mode the Saronite Animus casts AoE shadow damage (Profound Darkness). Eclipse, AoE and real MP5 talents are useless on him. Here's the spec Fusion's moonkin used in their US 1st H Vezax Hard kill: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft