Moonkin Raiding - Page 97

Korhaug · 05/28/09, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Actually it makes quite a bit of difference. As a rough approximation, most of the benefit of Haste is from Starfire casts, and Haste won't benefit instant SF casts.

Simulationcraft shows that for a PW style fight, you get about as many IS ticks as SF casts. My "rough approximation" would indicate that Haste will be 8% less valuable, and SC sample output shows crit scaling slightly better than Haste in its BiS T8, even for a Lunar rotation (this is still using the current 4t8 mechanichism).

In real fights you might depend on Hurricane, where Haste is much better than crit. On the other hand you might have a lot of movement, meaning an even larger fraction of your SF's come from IS, and you get very little benefit from Haste.

From the last log in the WWS thread (I'm not saying it's typical, and it was Solar) filtering for defeated bosses, SF was 32% and Hurricane was 8%. Remaing casts were Wrath or instants. There were about four times as many IS ticks as SF casts. Those numbers almost certainly correspond to Crit > Haste, even more so if the new 4t8 were in place.

Your "rough approximation" that 8% proc chance for an instant starfire will lead to an 8% drop in the value of haste is just not based on any real math. The interaction between haste, cast times, and the GCD is more complex than you describe, not to mention that starfire is not the only spell you cast.
In real fights you might depend on movement. No one likes to model that because it's a pain, but I spend a lot of time running and you probably do too. And yes, haste does let you get more casts off in a moving fight.
Solar cycles have always valued crit over haste by a wide margin. This is not news, and has nothing to do with 4T8.

There is an ongoing debate over the relative weights of haste and crit, but until someone shows me some actual math on this (with numbers, *gasp*) I just do not believe that 4T8 substantially shifts those weights by itself.

Erdluf · 05/28/09, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Korhaug

There is an ongoing debate over the relative weights of haste and crit, but until someone shows me some actual math on this (with numbers, *gasp*) I just do not believe that 4T8 substantially shifts those weights by itself.

I'd be inclined to call SC's monte-carlo simulation "numbers." I don't think it is 4T8 by itself. Items like [Scale of Fates], combined with very high NG uptimes from 2T8 are also factors.

It is quite possible that there are errors in their model, although I currently believe it is the best one out there (except for not yet modeling the 8% 4T8 proc rate). It is possible that their latency is slightly too high, but I think it is pretty good.

Graylo's model is not yet including lag. The rotation is very complex for WC (although errors in WC are very small also).

Starfox · 05/29/09, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

I'd be inclined to call SC's monte-carlo simulation "numbers." I don't think it is 4T8 by itself. Items like [Scale of Fates], combined with very high NG uptimes from 2T8 are also factors.

It is quite possible that there are errors in their model, although I currently believe it is the best one out there (except for not yet modeling the 8% 4T8 proc rate). It is possible that their latency is slightly too high, but I think it is pretty good.

The latency model should be fully customisable, but SC itself is kind of lacking a good documentation for new user :/
PTR changes are all done, except the new Overkill for rogues.
There is no pre-compiled download, but I requested a new release from nate so people can test the new PTR changes. If you can compile it yourself, just checkout the latest revision from trunk and run it with:

patch=3.1.3

to get PTR mechanics

druen123 · 06/02/09, 2:23 PM

After talking to one of my buddies on my server we were wondering about what would be more dps. either using our stafrie ecplise or wrath ecplise? Now that they did just fix the bugg with the 4piece set bonus for T8 i was leaning to going to haste and using starfire. But with the 2 piece bouns would that over cap your starfire for crtis? Or would it be better to use wrath for the 15% more damage to it?

Zifrelm · 06/02/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by druen123

But with the 2 piece bouns would that over cap your starfire for crtis?

Er...

Compared to your lunar eclipses in 3.0, you lose 5% crit from scorch, 5% from no longer having 4T7, and gain 15% from 2T8, netting you only 5% over what you used to be critting at in 3.0. So unless your lunar eclipse starfires had a 95% crit chance in 3.0 (give or take a few percent from gear shuffling), you won't be anywhere near going over cap.

Kiniaa · 06/02/09, 7:49 PM

Hey guys

I was wondering what are you changing the Malygos boots to?

Rawr suggests Spellslinger's Slippers for me to be 60dps upgread! wasnt expecting that tbh, maybe its because of the spirit/SP conversion buff.

Also really strange for me is that Rawr suggests t 8,5 HEALING head for dps ( ofc with DPS gems) as my best option

Just to confirm, after the fix 4 parts of t8,5 are THE way to go?

If so, which ? seems im gona be going without the head atm

( 25 man hard modes loot is atm out of reach for me, but can get all else, incl all 10 man hard modes)

cheers

( if smth is not clear, sorry, its 2am at my place :P )

Latas · 06/02/09, 8:11 PM

If you have access to it, [Treads of the False Oracle] is the complete linear upgrade from the malygos boots. But if 25 man hardmodes are out of the question then yeah its the spellslinger slippers as far as I know.

hevonlee · 06/02/09, 9:30 PM

[Boots of Fiery Resolution] better then ^^ according to my Rawr and using a lunar rotation. They come out on top for both 4pc 7.5 and 4pc 8.5 not by much but enough to make them better. The [Treads of the False Oracle] also have a blue socket I think we have more than enough of them already.

Ashaera · 06/02/09, 10:25 PM

@Hevonlee
Consider this when looking at the sockets:
Red socket+Yellow socket+6haste bonus equals 38sp or 27sp+14haste rating
Red socket+Blue socket+7sp bonus equals 38sp or 36sp+12stamina or 36sp+8spirit.
All of which are fairly equal, I would pick 36sp+12sta if I had the choice.

Removing all shared stats (& taking bok+imp gotw into consideration) it comes down too
[Boots of Fiery Resolution] - Gemming for 27sp+14haste
+3.4 intellect (0.4sp & a tiny amount of crit)
+63.28 spirit (19sp)
+22haste rating (0.65% haste)
+1 spellpower

[Treads of the False Oracle] - Gemming for 36sp+8spirit to show max damage potential, worthwhile noting that this option potentially nets you 23stamina though.
+11stamina
+61crit rating (1.33%)

Ignoring the surplus intellect you are choosing between 1.33% crit or 20spellpower+0.65% haste.
For solar eclipse the choice is obvious, for lunar its fairly equal probably favouring the spirit ones slightly (In any case the optimal choice if you attempt to distribute loot wisely & arent running 1 million holy priests)
---
Anyway a long reply to not really make any interesting points, allthough its nice to sit down & compare items in hand, rather than having to trust fx Rawr (Very double standard as I'd use statweighting from Wrathcalc to compare the statdifferences with actual gear!).

Poromu · 06/03/09, 12:12 AM

Anyone noticing the proc on 4t8 still not working right? I posted in the Damage Dealing forums but only one other person has posted experiencing the same issue.

who3v3r · 06/03/09, 2:19 AM

ignore that post <.<

Latas · 06/03/09, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Poromu

Anyone noticing the proc on 4t8 still not working right? I posted in the Damage Dealing forums but only one other person has posted experiencing the same issue.

Seems to be working fine for me, what exactly do you mean by "not working right"?

Poromu · 06/03/09, 2:49 AM

It is still eating the proc when i'm mid-cast on a starfire. I put IS on a target dummy and spammed SF only refreshing IS when it fell off to eliminate procs happening as I refresh. Every single proc was eaten by my current SF cast. No instant SF's.

Edt: I fixed the problem by unequiping a peice of the 4pc logging out and logging back in. I'm not entirely sure what was wrong really.

Eranicus · 06/03/09, 7:00 AM

lol, my 4p bonus is bugged. If it procs while casting a SF, it shoots off 2 SF'es when the cast lands, no extra gcd ;P

Atheril92 · 06/03/09, 8:39 AM

I'm fairly sure that it's intentional. There is still a .5 second or so delay after the second starfire cast, I suggested on the thread about the 4pc that they should reduce the GCD (which I think they took). What I'm not sure if it's intentional or not but if you have a proc during a Starfire cast when the cast end ends on the Eclipse CD, it will not consume the buff (possibly to prevent any mistaken solar eclipse)