Item - Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus - Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 7%. (Down from 15%)
But no buff to t9 or t10 atm *sigh*
Does this mean we should grab t10 asap in 3.3?
Yeah, as I posted above, this isn't a big deal, since the advantage of 2T8 over 2T10 or 4T10 was little to none. Now you'll take a small hit when 3.3 hits until T10 is available, but you'll want to move into T10 quickly (or at least into 2T9/2T10).
I do wish that these changes, which are improvements to coherency (or would be, if the WiseEclipse-killing change were done right) would come with some DPS compensation. Would be nice to be assured of maintaining a solidly average raid DPS position through the final tier.
The T8 is obvious change that needed to happen, almost glad because means can upgrade to 245 stuff, but at same time they are not giving us anything else to offset it and doubling up with eclipse nerf.
The eclipse change it starts to hurt if you don't get a quick proc of either eclipse, I know i've definetely had periods of 10-15 seconds with no eclipse proc, rare but does happen. It wasn't so bad since could click off the buff to get back to solar as soon as possible.
I'm guessing now there will be a cutoff period where its not worth trying to proc lunar because then you are stuck with it for the full 15 seconds.
Tier 8 Sets
•Item - Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus - Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 7%. (Down from 15%)
Tier 10 Sets
•Item - Druid T10 Balance 4P Bonus - Your critical strikes from Starfire and Wrath cause the target languish for an additional 7% of your spell's damage over 4 sec. (Up from 5%)
Posted on MMO Champion...is this their way of compensating for the double nerfage (so to speak)?
Quick spreadsheet update for people who want to play with the 3.3 changes. Changed 2T8 and 4T10, and disabled WiseEclipse (just an option on the second page). Will probably use it as a chance to update the guide over the break.
Hard to summarize coherently the net effect of the changes because they all interact. 4T10 is better when you crit more, so it was better with WE; 2T8 was also far stronger with WE. And the 4T10 vs. 2T8 tradeoff depends on your current gear options, so the effect of nerfing one and buffing the other varies widely. In brief, expect a net DPS loss (a few hundred) immediately from losing 2T8/WE, with around 100 DPS of that recovered when you get 4T10.
e: fixed this to account for nerf to Solar as well.
I've just done a write-up of Moonkin threat and can think of 5 methods for a moonkin to reduce threat (4 for horde)
- Blessing of Salvation
- Stop dpsing target
- Shadowmeld
- Die - Shapeshift to cat and Cower
I just want to know whether there are any that I have missed. I am assuming most raiding moonkin have Nature's Reach which provides some threat reduction. If any are interested in the post you can find it here : Strayegg.com • Moonkin and threat management - keep in mind that this post is intended to be marginally tongue-in-cheek
You need to recheck your sources. Cower is a small fixed amount (-3474) of threat reduction. You'd be better off not attacking for a couple of seconds than to waste mana going into cat, and potentially killing yourself getting into melee range to use cower (and then wasting more mana going back to boomkin). The amount of threat reduced is probably offset by a starfire cast and then some.
xaijin_sama, if you read my write-up you would see that I have listed cower as being the 6th option, right underneath committing suicide (which I hope noone actually takes seriously, meant it as an option by way that it would reduce your threat, but not in a desirable way). In my original post I should probably have stated it was to reduce threat relative to the tank, rather than reduce threat absolutely.
The point is, switching to cat and cowering will reduce your threat. It will burn mana, but for a lot of raiding moonkin I am sure mana is not an issue. It may get you killed, and the bigger effect is that it effectively encompasses the 3rd option of doing nothing while you are running to the boss, cowering, and getting back into position.
The Shrouding potion isn't fantastic in WOTLK, but I included it after the suggestion here on the criteria that :
1 : it is something you can personally use without relying on others
2 : even if the amount is small, it does reduce your threat
3 : what other option do we have aside from doing nothing :P
The only option that significantly reduces your absolute threat is using a paladins HoS
On an unrelated note, I am happy to see the tier 8 changes. As has been noted it had to happen, and it puts an end to druids recommending to upcomming druids to go for older tiers. T8 was nice while it lasted but it's time to move on!
Last edited by Aeiedil : 11/24/09 at 4:28 AM.
Reason: correction
AUGH--
Lunar-Solar chaining happened before WiseEclipse. That's how we got the idea in the first place. It happened randomly, when your Starfire happened to hit at the right time, with some variance due to lag. Now that canceling the buff won't work, the only way to make it happen is to get really good at the timing, to land a Starfire right as Lunar completes.
Looking forward to when 3.3 hits, I'll try to make an addon to tell you when to cast SF to take advantage of this whithout canceling Eclipse, but I find it very dificult, because of NG, lag and reaction time issues.
Also I wanted to thank those of you who relied in WE to improve your dps, it was good while it lasted.
I've just done a write-up of Moonkin threat and can think of 5 methods for a moonkin to reduce threat (4 for horde)
- Blessing of Salvation
- Stop dpsing target
- Shadowmeld
- Die
- Shapeshift to cat and Cower
I just want to know whether there are any that I have missed.
Intervene reduces the targets threat by 10%. If there's a multi-tank fight where a tank only has to periodically tank something, you can easily score an intervene from a prot warrior. If there's some reason for the melee to suddenly run to the ranged or if there's a period in the fight when they can't DPS, you might be able to talk a warrior of another spec into intervening you.
Eclipse: This effect will not activate again within 15 seconds of either type of Eclipse effect firing, in addition to the existing 30-second cooldown for each type of Eclipse..
Really dont know what to make of this. my napkin math is too inferior for it. but this could mean ol' school haste stacking and farming SF eclipse only.
Really dont know what to make of this. my napkin math is too inferior for it. but this could mean ol' school haste stacking and farming SF eclipse only.
I disagree, as you are then ensuring 50% eclipse downtime minimum compared to a much lower (<10% off the top of my head) downtime. Haste stacking and SF eclipse may produce more DPS than Wrath eclipse, but Wrath eclipse produces more dps than SF alone I would predict. It would be interesting to know at what level of haste this switches though to make old-style non-twisted rotations more beneficial again
Looking forward to when 3.3 hits, I'll try to make an addon to tell you when to cast SF to take advantage of this whithout canceling Eclipse, but I find it very dificult, because of NG, lag and reaction time issues.
Also I wanted to thank those of you who relied in WE to improve your dps, it was good while it lasted.
I didn't have too much time yesterday, but I went to target dummy for a few minutes and pulled off the switch a few times. It's tricky because you have to watch Nature's Grace while doing it, but not that bad. For anyone trying it, I'd cast a bit earlier than it looks, you want the Starfire to complete just before Lunar ends on your client--after is too late.
Thanks a lot for WE! If this change goes live, an addon to help time the casting might be a good idea.
Looking forward to when 3.3 hits, I'll try to make an addon to tell you when to cast SF to take advantage of this whithout canceling Eclipse, but I find it very dificult, because of NG, lag and reaction time issues.
If I can make a suggestion for the add-on:
Do it like in golf games. i.e. a progression bar going from left to right, with a "red" zone right in the middle, and you have to hit your key when the progression bar gets in that red zone. Possibly add a warning when you are casting your 2nd to last starfire, so you know not to chain cast your next starfire and to wait for the "golf game" to come up. I don't know how easy/hard that is to program, but I see it as the only viable way to make it a DPS upgrade, as we'll have to stop DPSing for up to 2 seconds to time that last starfire, whether it succeeds or not, and that's a big gamble.
If I can make a suggestion for the add-on:
Do it like in golf games. i.e. a progression bar going from left to right, with a "red" zone right in the middle, and you have to hit your key when the progression bar gets in that red zone. Possibly add a warning when you are casting your 2nd to last starfire, so you know not to chain cast your next starfire and to wait for the "golf game" to come up. I don't know how easy/hard that is to program, but I see it as the only viable way to make it a DPS upgrade, as we'll have to stop DPSing for up to 2 seconds to time that last starfire, whether it succeeds or not, and that's a big gamble.
It's messy because that's lost DPS time too. If you have to wait for 2 seconds, it's probably not worth it. If you have to wait for .2 seconds though, it is worth it. Another reason why serious DPS optimization in this new model is an incredible pain.
I don't know where to exactly begin. I have respecced many times and still cannot up my dps to where it should be. granted my gear isn't the best (Blizz's RNG hates me and no caster leather has dropped in 2 months or the weapons have been swords) Need some advie and help with my toon The World of Warcraft Armory. I have all of the addons and use the lunar rotation but dont know what to do to get to the next level
Why nerfing the Eclipse? Are moonkins OP? Are mookins getting "unfair" benefits compared to other classes?
I've heard it before, i just want to say it again: I wish moonkins were OP at least once. I think we need more love.
On topic:
Should we value crit higher now in gear itemization in order to make sure eclipse up-time increases? Or is it SP the correct and only way to go? I've seen 2400sp/30% moonkins do better than 2800/-20%... just wondering.
I wonder why all of the crit is built into the resto sets and not the balance set i know they (resto) need it too for there dots to keep up players but its insane not to give blance some decent crit in the tier set. i have gemmed for sp but i may have to to gem and enchant for more crit i think off the top of my head my crit is only like 22-24%
To flesh it out more, let's say that WE added ~300 DPS to a floor of 8000. Around 4% (just grabbing rough numbers from sheet). 4% of a 30s cycle is around 1 second. So that's a first-order estimate of a cutoff for how long it's worth waiting to time the Starfire. Note, however, if you're planning to wait more than 1s, you should be using that time to cast an instant, further complicating this process. Just to make it even worse, recall that the correct amount of time to wait depends on whether your previous spell happened to proc Nature's Grace.
So, for optimal DPS, you have to see when your second-last Starfire is going to land. You have to then decide whether to fit in an instant or not before you start the final Starfire. You have to do this computation for two cases however, depending on whether or not the second-last one procs NG.
This is getting beyond the point where I expect anyone to do it consistently without an addon (there's no reason not to make such an addon though, that tells you what to cast and gives a "golf"-style timer as someone mentioned above). But for now I'm just pointing out how absurd the mechanics become when you try to optimize the currently presented scheme.
I was wondering the same thing in regards to crit value. With the loss of the 2PT8 and the new 4pT10, plus the haste cap on wrath, where should be be targeting our haste and crit numbers? How much crit do we have to get before it offsets that amount we lose from Starfire haste (factoring Nature's Grace uptime).
Any thoughts? I wish I knew more of the background numbers, I'd do some napkin math myself, but I'd rather leave it to the experts.
To flesh it out more, let's say that WE added ~300 DPS to a floor of 8000. Around 4% (just grabbing rough numbers from sheet). 4% of a 30s cycle is around 1 second. So that's a first-order estimate of a cutoff for how long it's worth waiting to time the Starfire. Note, however, if you're planning to wait more than 1s, you should be using that time to cast an instant, further complicating this process. Just to make it even worse, recall that the correct amount of time to wait depends on whether your previous spell happened to proc Nature's Grace.
So, for optimal DPS, you have to see when your second-last Starfire is going to land. You have to then decide whether to fit in an instant or not before you start the final Starfire. You have to do this computation for two cases however, depending on whether or not the second-last one procs NG.
This is getting beyond the point where I expect anyone to do it consistently without an addon (there's no reason not to make such an addon though, that tells you what to cast and gives a "golf"-style timer as someone mentioned above). But for now I'm just pointing out how absurd the mechanics become when you try to optimize the currently presented scheme.
So eventually they made a change hoping to prevent ppl from using an addon and end up causing ppl to have to use another addon... and lowering the dps of a class that is not usually on top of the meters... Whats the reason behind the change then? Who wins?
Losing WE/2T8 don't significantly change the value of crit. Losing 2T8 helps just by removing the Lunar cap. 4T10 will bump up the value of crit slightly, but won't seriously disturb the stat order.
Quick spreadsheet update for people who want to play with the 3.3 changes. Changed 2T8 and 4T10, and disabled WiseEclipse (just an option on the second page). Will probably use it as a chance to update the guide over the break.
Hard to summarize coherently the net effect of the changes because they all interact. 4T10 is better when you crit more, so it was better with WE; 2T8 was also far stronger with WE. And the 4T10 vs. 2T8 tradeoff depends on your current gear options, so the effect of nerfing one and buffing the other varies widely. In brief, expect a net DPS loss (a few hundred) immediately from losing 2T8/WE, with around 100 DPS of that recovered when you get 4T10.
e: fixed this to account for nerf to Solar as well.
Thanks so much for getting WrathCalcs updated so quickly. I did notice you don't have 4T10 bonus in yet. Do you think you'll have that updated soon? I know 4T10 at this point is a long ways off, but with changes to T8 and WE the numbers become more important to us looking forward at our potential DPS in 3.3.
With my current gear 2T8+2T9(245) I show the following rough changes come 3.3:
(I am approximating DPS due to itemization as: iLvl 226 to iLvl 245 ~60DPS; 226 to 251 ~80; 226 to 264 ~120DPS /per item)
No gear change (ie patch day) ~ -300DPS
Switching to 4t9(245) ~ +128 net loss -172 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(251) ~ +175 net loss -125 DPS
2T9(245)+2T10(264) ~ +255 net loss -45 DPS
From this trend I estimate that 4T10(264) will be the first Tier Set net DPS increase for us in 3.3.
That is a lot of tier gear upgrades to improve on our current 2T8+2T9 setup. Of course iLvl 277 will get you there faster, but given the staggered release I suspect many will have several T10(264) in their first 4T10 sets.
Losing WE/2T8 don't significantly change the value of crit. Losing 2T8 helps just by removing the Lunar cap. 4T10 will bump up the value of crit slightly, but won't seriously disturb the stat order.
PS: You might wanna update that sign Arawethion hehe... hating blizz atm.
11/23/09, 8:51 PM
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