Nienkei

Do you have a discipline priest? Realistically either way I find that Intensity works as a better recovery system for mana than either Dreamstate or Moonglow. I would do something along the lines of:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Now, if you don't want to lose Gale Winds or Starfall (though if you do get Gale Winds I'd suggest typhoon over starfall. Only having Hurricane limits the talents buff by half) the spec can change but realistically in the long run, and looking for future itemization (tending to have spirit) you double dip on your returns with intensity. By getting spirit you'll increase both your in combat mana/5, and your spell power (albeit at 15%, but still it matters).

If you have a Discipline priest, or just a priest who's running a 23/48 you'll gain the 80 spirit from his Improved Spirit, and the 80 spell power from it as well. If you don't have a disc priest you can always just have a Scribe make you spirit scrolls. An intellect scroll (if you took Dreamstate) would not stack above Arcane/Dalaran Brilliance I'm going to assume you have.

 

Ashaera

Did anyone run a testing of this yet? Working on convincing my guildmates that its important info, but i'm a lovely owl so that could take a while.
----
My idea of testing this is to spec like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=000000000000
Most pretty random: Naturally avoiding crit increasing talents, trying to avoid damage increasing talents & picking up all the regen orientated ones.
Without gear I have just below 3% crit, with some spirit & mp5 heavy items that ends up around 5%.

Need to find two people & lure them into travelling to one of the arenas.
a) A second druid casting faerie fire (I'd prefer a feral to be 100% sure that it works with Faerie Fire (feral), but guess you can settle for a tree).
b) Someone with a good resilience set, preferably someone capeable of selfhealing. 3% reduced chance of being crit must be doable in level 70 pvp gear, I would think that 5% is aswell, though I didn't check how much resilience effect has decayed.

Your druid friend (a) keeps his faerie fire on your resilience friend (b) & you chaincast wrath until:
1) You crit.
2) You get tired of trying to crit, with a 2½-3% chance to crit how many casts are needed to produce a trustworthy result?

Any comments on this testing method?

 

Hjalte

It's the same testing method as the one suggested in here earlier. I think it sounds fine, but I am not sure how many wraths would make a trustworthy result.

This method feels better to me than the method used on the official WoW forums, where they did sort of the same, without using a person with resilience though.

 

slazareth

So what are the current dps rotations that need to be tested?

Currently I'm running: (Rotation #1)
MF SF (till eclipse proc) IS Wrath (till eclipse fade)

However I am curious about: (Rotation #2)
IS MF Wrath (till eclipse proc) SF (till eclipse fade)

edit:
Here are my tests from full to oom on heroic training dummy popping trinket and trees at start:
Rot#1: 2122 dps 23.7k dmg
Rot#2: 2084 dps 23.7k dmg (eclipse only proc'd once @ 50% mana... grr rng)
Rot#2: 2300 dps 22.2k dmg

Only had time to do three attempts, will do more later.

1484 dmg
267 hit (under due to lack of spriest and shaman... oh well)
20.25% crit in form
207 haste
379 mana regen

2pc t6 set bonus (broke 4 set the other day /cry) oh and only 2/3 eclipse. you can check my spec to the left.

 

dukes

You don't really need an arena - as I happen to be on the same server, I could probably help you with this. I've been thinking about sorting out a full set of Overcast stuff anyway - that gives about 3.5% -crit (as far as I know, resillience is ~84 per % now), and then I've got a couple of other bits that should give another 1% or so. Using rank 1 wrath should help to reduce the damage far enough that self-healing isn't a major issue (although mana regen will be awful if you have 0 gear on).

All you need is another druid for FF and IRC (i'm normally in the alakir channel on quakenet), or we can sort this out with PM's. Unfortunately I'm at work until about 6pm, so we'll have to do it later.

Hjalte, you should only need 1 wrath crit to show that it is working, while no crits over 1000 casts doesn't prove without doubt that there's no effect, but should be good enough.

 

slazareth

iirc, you can't downrank cast anymore?

 

Klaerth

You can, you just need to check the box for 'Show All Ranks'. As well, downranked spells cost more mana. He merely suggested it so it does less damage, since it's a test, not an attempt to kill. =3

 

Boswell

Theory crafting can only go so far, and the debate of how to use eclipse has been going on and on. Can we start sharing results? I'd like to see multiple 5k dps patchwerk parses of a balance druid using eclipse.

 

Saintrancid

http://wowwebstats.com/mxwqhu4n2lnms...cccd#abilities

 

spencerthomas

browsing your log looks like you tag patchwerk with IS/MF/Starfall as the tank is pulling into possition then wrath (until eclipse ) and pop tree's right before hero. .9 seconds before the hero, nicely timed.

I also had some questions for you about the build your running ( atleast as is showing on the arm. )

I see you have 1pt moonglow and 3/3 owlkin and no regen talents except that 1 moonglow. I wonder if it wouldn't be more beneficial to go 1pt genesis and 1pt Nature's Splendor and forgo the moonglow and take a point from owlkin.

Modified Spec

Looking at the breakdown of the night for you I see owlkin only proc'd 16 times. of which 4 were on boss fights.
( 1 for gothik, 3 on horsemen ). 1 point in Splendor would seem to allow for another cast or two before a DoT refresh and thus be a DPS/DMG increase. And even though the 1pt Genesis would have only increased your damage done by about 790 over the fight it would have been an increase none-the-less. I didn't see a pot or innervate use so I imagine the little regen the 1pt of moonglow would not really have mattered.

how was the no-regen on later fights for you? Grob and Kel'thuzad proved to be abit of an issue even while potting.

 

Daylis

WWS Loading...

This is our go at Patchwerk yesterday. Comments?

 

• Arawethion

It's interesting comparing your parse to the one 2 posts up. Your Wrath damage is much higher--Rokaz's ratio of 2:1 SF:Wrath damage is closer to what I would have expected using a "normal" (closest thing we have to it right now) rotation where you Wrath only when Eclipse is off ICD. What spell rotation are you using? Your DoT uptime is close to full. One other thing--you never cast Starfall.

It's hard to read too much into Rokaz's higher raw DPS number, due to huge difference in fight duration, but he's clearly doing extremely well. I'm intrigued by his low DoT uptime. Have we been focusing too much on keeping all the DoT's up while we should perhaps be trying to fully maximize the number of Eclipsed/Graced Starfires (which seems to be what Rokaz's rotation is doing)?

----

While I'm here--can anyone take a quick glance at my Armory and tell me whether they think I'm at the point where I can drop Intensity? I've geared up faster than expected and was going to try it next respec. I see Rokaz has but Daylis hasn't. I'm practically sitting at full mana in full raid-buffed situations, but was just curious how people are doing without it in Naxx gear.

One other question: are many people here having to keep FF up due to lack of a Shadow Priest (I know most guilds have them due to TBC), and how does it affect your DPS/rotations?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

spartakos

The best way to remove intensity is point by point, until you end fights with very little mana. Just remember that this will also affect you at 5man, where we actually aoe everything, solo farming and at 10man where you don't always have a BoW, a mana tide or a replenisher.

 

Marauding Master

The better you gear up, the lesser you'll need your mana regen talents. Without any mana regen abilities I was running out of mana pretty slow, hardly ever having to drink. This was with all regen talents. I think if I skipped Moonglow and put poins out of Dreamstate, I'd end up with the same number now that I'm out of 70 epics and into 80 ones.

 

Daylis

I've pretty much 1:1 SF:wrath ratio, yes. Mostly because i hate to leave MF tick out before i put 3 SF's on it for 9 extra seconds. This usually means one of these SF's crit and proc Wrath eclipse = wrath spam. I could blame a little of it on my relatively low crit (~10% less than Rokaz), still waiting for my 4th t7 piece. So overall, it's a worse rotation, but better than missing MF ticks. I am pretty diligent with dot reapplication at least

Usualy i go IS, MF, wrath until eclipse or (more likely) until MF is ticking out and i have to SFx3.

Starfall.. just me forgetting i have it :/


Indeed, Rokaz seems to skip dot reapplication while eclipse is up. Probably dependant on gear level, the higher, more likely to be better to just skip it.


Reasons for keeping intensity... my guild has a very solid core, but bout 5-10 people are usually more or less random, so i cant count on things going smooth in 25mans. Until we weed out the idiots and make a solid 25man team, i'm keeping at least 3/3 intensity. Also, if you find yourself in a 10man situation without replenishment.. it's well worth skipping that occasionaly useful owlkin frenzy/ISS point or two for more mana regen. As you can see, our dps combined is very poor, so fights last longer as well = me spending more mana.

Oh, last week for instance, we were doing 10man Kel'thuzad without replenishment. I used 2 innervates with 91spirit weapon, always potted, was buffed with every imaginable regen buff and had every single regen talent specced. And still i was standing still watching happy hunters and meleers whack away while waiting out of mp5 :/
Brings back unpleasant oomkin memories.

 

Boswell

I don't think Rokaz's WWS is a good benchmark to measure consistent DPS (On that particular patchwerk, anyway). His guild did a speed kill and cheesed the fight by using 3 tanks 4 healers 18 dps which resulted in a very short duration fight, which naturally generates higher dps numbers then what the rest of the raiding population would see.

 

klüger

covered, nm

 

• Arawethion

I noted this in my post; but it's still a very strong performance. You're right, we shouldn't get too hung up on the number, but I'm just curious about the top DPS in a top raid with such low DoT uptime.

---------

Random question: what's the right way to DPS Loatheb? Mostly academic because he's easy, but just curious (maybe this will matter when the achievement is fixed). Do you abuse high Eclipse uptime by casting Wrath with both high crit and the Eclipse bonus, or abuse NG by spamming Starfire the whole way (and what about DoT's)?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Uday

It's still a reasonable number he put up. Here's a similar DPS result on a 4 minute fight, was wearing 2pc with gloves/shoulders at the time.

Patchwerk 12-03-08

 

spartakos

Can you explain your rotation? Your crit % seems too low for such high dps.

 

Poromu

On the loatheb question, it seems like during a heroism w/ NG up time it's probably best to just spam SF, keeping up MF.

I'm curious though uday, are W/SF twisting or trying to get the w eclipse using SF? My dmg output from SF is usually much higher than wrath.

Patchwerk...
Wow Web Stats

Just curious why mana is such an issue for so many, I run with only omen of clarity. I don't even use the innervate glyph or mana pots most of the time. I wrath to get the SF eclipse.

i run 58/0/13.

 

Uday

That run I was Keeping up both dots, (even refreshing IS during an eclipse, unless the eclipse was more than halfway over) and using wrath as my primary nuke. I only cast SF if eclipse was off CD, or if my MF hadn't had 3 SF ticks added yet, and would drop off in the next 5 seconds. During Heroism, I spammed SF with disregard to eclipse procs.

As to my wrath usage- I have relatively low latency, did not have 4pc, and have not seen the SF idol drop yet. All of my testing up to that point showed wrath doing more DPS. Since 30% crit is roughly 20% damage increase when you have 50% raid buffed crit already, and the SF procced eclipse is much much less reliant on RNG, I prefer that eclipse effect. My eclipse preference, with wrath consistently showing higher DPS for my gear set at the time meant I spam wrath.

 

klüger

If you could tell us why you have 3/3moonglow instead of 1/3 and 2/2 moonfire, that would help me a lot

 

Uday

I actually had Imp MF on that kill, although I usually avoid it. 2 points in imp MF produced a .64% DPS increase, which is a horrible return for 2 talent points. I won't take Imp MF over Moonglow until I am at a point where I never have mana issues and never benefit from Moonglow. Probably around the time that I switch to SF as my primary nuke.

 

• Arawethion

Right, Imp. MF is a 10% increase on MF, which is about 7% of our damage. But how often do "mana issues" cause even a 1% DPS hit for you? I imagine that Moonglow is giving you 0% per point in nearly every situation.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.