Moonkin Talents/Specs Discussion - Page 8

Humbaba · 01/06/09, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Grenadieris

I'm starting to think IFF is not worth it for me anymore.
I am Hit overcapped if I put my Hit trinket in.
We have a shadowpriest in our raid.
Majority of my raid casters should be hit capped too by now.
Plus - it seems like dps loss, cause 40 seconds is not enough.
I was told, that those 3% of crit do not stack with shaman totem. So...
Am I wrong?

Test the 3% crit stacking and find out conclusively if it does or not. I suspect that it does because it's not a raid buff as ToW is.

• Adoriele · 01/06/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Grenadieris

I'm starting to think IFF is not worth it for me anymore.
I am Hit overcapped if I put my Hit trinket in.
We have a shadowpriest in our raid.
Majority of my raid casters should be hit capped too by now.
Plus - it seems like dps loss, cause 40 seconds is not enough.
I was told, that those 3% of crit do not stack with shaman totem. So...
Am I wrong?

Personal 3% crit stacks with everything. If you have a Spriest and a feral in the raid, there is no reason at all for you to cast iFF, though speccing into it, as the current theory goes, will still give you that personal 3% crit.

I'm going to agree with Arawethion from another thread that it's very hard to make a decent spec where iFF is not chosen, even in a 55/0/16 spec.

dukes · 01/06/09, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ranghar

Extreme case of RNG curse. If Starfall crits 3 times, you save 1.5s via NG, as much as you need to cast it. Therefore Starfall becomes free (not counting mana of course) and cannot decrease your DPS. And no, don't blame your gear, it's good enough.

This is wrong.

When Natures Grace procs, the next spell you cast gains the benefit. The charge of NG is used up at the end of the cast, regardless of whether the cast was hasted or not. While chain casting, the NG procs from Starfall will never affect your casts, and will always be used up by the currently running cast. The only time you should benefit from Starfall NG procs are if you are refreshing dots during it's duration (in which case you have downtime between casts), or on it's initial cast (due to the GCD before starting the next cast). It is unlikely that you will make up the full GCD period used on Starfall, but it is certainly possible that there will be one proc which will gain a small amount of value back from that spell.

Erdluf · 01/06/09, 1:29 PM

For a simple-minded look at numbers for choosing rotations.

At raid-buffed 2000 SP, 50% crit, 20% haste, .15s lag (server-side queueing), .2s lag (no server-side queueing=NG'd Wrath), no idol, the relative DPS of nukes are pretty close to

Relative to non-Eclipse Wrath

		Eclipse
Wrath	100%	120%
SF	98%	124%
SF+MF	113%	140%

where SF+MF means your SF actually gave you an MF DoT that would have otherwise been lost. I ran this without IIS. IIS might push the SF numbers down by about 1%, since 3% damage > 3% crit.

Add 10% haste, and all the SF % rise by 4-5%.
Add 1000 SP, and the SF+MF % fall by 2% (MF DoT scales poorly), but the others remain unchanged.
Add 10% crit, and all the SF% fall by about 1%.
Add 0.05s lag, and the all the SF % increase by 1-2%

Get one spell interrupted every minute (short stun, tossed into air, don't stand in the fire) and the SF numbers drop by about 2%.

For most gear levels and 3/3 Eclipse I think this means you want to go for SF during eclipse, or possibly spell-weaving to proc.

Wrath gets less raw benefit from Eclipse, unless you have a very high crit rate. Lots of Wrath casts also mean more chances to miss the SF+MF benefit.

Yonder · 01/06/09, 1:30 PM

Sorry, wrong forum. *deleted*

Cdin · 01/07/09, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dirm

I did a simple test last week which seems pretty conclusive to me, but I might have missed something.

I went out to the arena in nagrand, took off everything but two items, which left me with ~4.8% crit showing on the character pane. This should put me at 8.8% with talents.

A guildie brought out a level 70 warlock and put on pvp gear such that his character pane showed 9% crit reduction.

Another guildie put FFF up on the warlock. I spammed rank 1 wrath, and got a crit. If IFF did not work with FFF, this should have been impossible.

This, makes me favor IFF to IIS.

The mitigating factors that I can think of are:

If you don't have a feral tank, then IFF isn't a damage increase (if you have 50% crit, then spending 1 GCD ~1.3s out of every 40s -> 3.2% of your cast time to gain a 1.53/1.5 -> 2% dps increase kinda sucks). However, if you don't have a feral and you have at least two physical dps, you should be casting faerie fire even if you don't have IFF as it's an estimated 5% dps increase (against boss armor levels) for each of them, so it's still an increase in RDPS (though I haven't done the math on the cost of FF vs recklessness, I'm pretty sure a moonkin GCD is cheaper than losing CoA). The only place this has been an issue for me is sarth10+3, where our feral tank is on sarth, so the drakes don't get FF, and we don't use any physical dps.

It's possible (though perhaps unlikely) that IIS stacks multiplicatively and IFF stacks additively. This would obviously help out IIS in the comparison, but testing it is a bit tricky.

I like this test, but I have a question. Did you do any control casts on your target before you had FFF applied? If so, do you remember how many? I would assume that if you did none of them crit. This obviously isn't a game changer. I'm must wondering more for clarity.

Axl · 01/07/09, 5:19 PM

I see a lot of druids are dropping all of their mana regen talents, even intensity. I'd love to drop intensity to get gale winds or IFF, but everytime I go to respec, I just can't tear myself from it.

Basically, my guild does 3 drake sarth every week. And I'm absolutely bone dry by the time the drakes are dead. Even if I innervate it really doesn't help me finish the fight with mana. I normally sit on my thumbs for the last 75% of the fight. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I lost intensity.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how they keep mana during that fight? Or is it not even possible for a moonkin? I know basing my spec around a single fight seems foolhardy, but arguably its the only difficult fight in this expansion (unless you count battling the LD boss for your immortal achivement).

Ashaera · 01/07/09, 7:46 PM

Axl - The easy solution is to just respec for that 1 fight.
Else your mana problems gets solved once your raiddps goes up - On our clean kills I dont have mana problems, in the last 1 that was messy I did. Aslong as you last till 3rd dragon is down then it doesnt matter though.
Best way to conserve mana is to not aoe, but that depends on your group setup - alternatively you can stop aoeing abit sooner & let people that can aoe without using an 8second channel finish it off.

You could adjust your spec abit, if your having mana problems then get 1/3 Moonglow instead of Genesis - The points from Owl'kin Frenzy & Typhoon could be moved aswell (personal preferance applies I suppose). 1/3 Brambles is not really interesting till after you picked up Imp. FF either.

hquest · 01/08/09, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

Axl - The easy solution is to just respec for that 1 fight.
Else your mana problems gets solved once your raiddps goes up - On our clean kills I dont have mana problems, in the last 1 that was messy I did. Aslong as you last till 3rd dragon is down then it doesnt matter though.
Best way to conserve mana is to not aoe, but that depends on your group setup - alternatively you can stop aoeing abit sooner & let people that can aoe without using an 8second channel finish it off.

You could adjust your spec abit, if your having mana problems then get 1/3 Moonglow instead of Genesis - The points from Owl'kin Frenzy & Typhoon could be moved aswell (personal preferance applies I suppose). 1/3 Brambles is not really interesting till after you picked up Imp. FF either.

Or do not AoE "at will", but do some focused dmg until you see Clearcasting, and then shoots out AoE. This is the ultimate mana saver, if you can notice it fast enough.

• Hamlet · 01/08/09, 3:25 PM

The only things I'm going to be doing in the next few days that have any level of challenge are learning 5min Malygos and working on Sarth+3 (10 and 25). With this in mind, might it be worth picking up Owlkin Frenzy over some other DPS talent? It seems like these are fights where it might have some DPS value.

Anyone tried using it and have an idea of the proc rate?

Ashaera · 01/08/09, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by hquest

Or do not AoE "at will", but do some focused dmg until you see Clearcasting, and then shoots out AoE. This is the ultimate mana saver, if you can notice it fast enough.

This is not an option for Sartharion 3drakes - You will be aoeing once & you want all your aoe classes to do it at the same time to clean up fast.

Originally Posted by Arawethion

The only things I'm going to be doing in the next few days that have any level of challenge are learning 5min Malygos and working on Sarth+3 (10 and 25)

For Malygos I cant see Owl'Kin frenzy being worth it, if it can proc off vortex then you have it proc more or less everytime you cant use it. Rather boost trees for the 2 casts you can get off.

Sartharion 10man it might be interesting (25man aswell if you leave Vesperon Acolyte up there) - I would assume it to proc from Twilight Torment which hits you like once every 4seconds, but thats only for a small part of the fight, allthough also the hardest part of the 10man kill. The 25man version is alot more forgiving & has way lower dpsrequirements, but atleast with our strategy I wouldn't take Owlkin Frenzy for that.

For 10man I see http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...man Sarth spec as more or less the optimal way to go. Depending on mana needs you could pick up Intensity or Owlkin Frenzy with the 3 spare points.
But its heavily setup dependant, in my case I would not expect a feral on the adds where dps matters & since we will bring spriest for replenishment anyway theres no need to pick up imp. FF then. If you dont have a resto druid then Id take Imp. Motw aswell.

Pilor · 01/08/09, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

The only things I'm going to be doing in the next few days that have any level of challenge are learning 5min Malygos and working on Sarth+3 (10 and 25). With this in mind, might it be worth picking up Owlkin Frenzy over some other DPS talent? It seems like these are fights where it might have some DPS value.

Anyone tried using it and have an idea of the proc rate?

I have videos up here (streaming and HQ download) for both 10 man and 25 man Sarth+3. For both fights I had 2/3 Owlkin Frenzy. The videos should give you an idea of what I experienced from OF as far as procs and usefulness. However, these are obviously just two examples.

I stand by OF as a useful talent on most fights. If nothing else, it adds a little extra excitement to the current round of relatively boring fights.

hquest · 01/08/09, 9:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

This is not an option for Sartharion 3drakes - You will be aoeing once & you want all your aoe classes to do it at the same time to clean up fast.

Hmmm, in fact, I usually either do some last sec focused cast on any living add or I do AoE in the very beginning of the whelp/fire elementals stage -- this short time generally save me. If after AoE classes started and I did not got my Clearcast after 2 focused casts, then I give up on Clearcast and get my mana pot ready. But again, this works fine for me (on a 25man setup, btw).

Calaziar · 01/09/09, 3:16 AM

So, if I'm reading this correctly, as I'm often (90%) in a raid without a SP or another owl casting IFF, I should be dropping the 3 points in IIS and replacing them with 3/3 IFF for a dps increase? Or should I be keeping IIS and dropping points elsewhere? I use the standard Moonfire, Starfire, and Insect Swarm glyphs and have the 4pc T7 bonus. I hope Armory is up.

• Hamlet · 01/09/09, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by Calaziar

So, if I'm reading this correctly, as I'm often (90%) in a raid without a SP or another owl casting IFF, I should be dropping the 3 points in IIS and replacing them with 3/3 IFF for a dps increase? Or should I be keeping IIS and dropping points elsewhere? I use the standard Moonfire, Starfire, and Insect Swarm glyphs and have the 4pc T7 bonus. I hope Armory is up.

Yes, always take IFF if there isn't another source of IFF/Misery. For what to drop, read the threads more, but basically, some combination of IIS/Intensity/Typhoon.

Ashaera · 01/10/09, 9:15 AM

I am almost positive the talent is looking at your spells. So if you cast Wrath, it does a check to see if you also have FF up on the target.

The intent of the talent is to encourage you to cast Faerie Fire, compensating you a little for the fact that you are debuffing the target. It isn't intended to just be "here have some crit." The intent is that if you cast FF, even if the debuff is already on the mob, you are rewarded for it.

I suspect it isn't smart enough to detect Feral Faerie Fire now that it's a base spell.

I did not try this myself so I could be wrong.

Ghostcrawler on the Imp. Faerie Fire topic - I guess its time to whine at guildies so I can make a proper testing of this.

Lilija · 01/10/09, 12:20 PM

Ghostcrawlers post might not be final statement as for the current state of how this crit bonus works since some people already did tests and it seems that 3% does work also from FFF. But this post might indicate that it wasn't intended for the crit bonus to work with FFF and that might be leading to eventual "fix" which will make the crit bonus work only from IFF.

Ashaera · 01/10/09, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Lilija

Since some people already did tests and it seems that 3% does work also from FFF.

Best test I've seen included using a level 70 character as the target - Allthough I dont think the level matters, I still wouldn't refer to this as conclussive evidence. If I missed a proper testing of this subjekt then please PM it to me.

So far I opted to believe the test i'm refering to, & we agree that the GC quote I listed is not really proof of anything either - Allthough I see some value in the sense that he believes FF & FF-Feral are coded as two different spells, & thus Imp. FF should not benefit from FF-Feral unless some programmer actively made sure it does.

Either way my belief from yesterday about FF-Feral granting 3% crit has been challenged & thus Id like to see a reference to a proper testing.

Eilt · 01/13/09, 2:39 PM

I went ahead and looked at this in game, and I am happy to report that I was wrong. Any Faerie Fire should allow you to get the 3% crit, even if you didn't cast it.

So the tooltip should probably read:

Your Faerie Fire and Feral Faerie Fire spells also increase the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increase the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by [anyone's] Faerie Fire or Feral Faerie Fire.

I don't always have the game right in front of me when I am reading forums (most often I am on a painfully topical beach sipping mai tais) so I try not to guess unless I am pretty sure about something. I was pretty sure about this, but I was wrong. It happens. There are like 15,000 spells in the game.

GC's latest post, I think we can finally settle the discussion, iFF should be taken, even if you are not casting it for the hit portion of the spell.

Frdmfghtr · 01/14/09, 7:47 PM

As far as moonkin weapon selection goes, what seems to be superior: one-hander and off-hand (OH comp), or staffs?

Staffs seem to have less spellpower than the OH comp and seem to budget more itemization value into spirit, ect. So my questions is, assuming hit cap, what weapon seems to bring the best DPS?

Damnation (off Four Hoursemen) for example only has only 408 spellpower but 2% crit , 86 intellect, 65 spirit

• Hamlet · 01/14/09, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Frdmfghtr

As far as moonkin weapon selection goes, what seems to be superior: one-hander and off-hand (OH comp), or staffs?

Staffs seem to have less spellpower than the OH comp and seem to budget more itemization value into spirit, ect. So my questions is, assuming hit cap, what weapon seems to bring the best DPS?

Damnation (off Four Hoursemen) for example only has only 408 spellpower but 2% crit , 86 intellect, 65 spirit

1H/OH combos will generally be stronger for DPS than 2H's of equal quality.

Moonwhisper · 01/19/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Frdmfghtr

As far as moonkin weapon selection goes, what seems to be superior: one-hander and off-hand (OH comp), or staffs?

Staffs seem to have less spellpower than the OH comp and seem to budget more itemization value into spirit, ect. So my questions is, assuming hit cap, what weapon seems to bring the best DPS?

Damnation (off Four Hoursemen) for example only has only 408 spellpower but 2% crit , 86 intellect, 65 spirit

Best weapon combo in game at this time:
[Torch of Holy Fire] + [Surplus Limb] (585SP makes them clearly favorable)

it beats the best 2H weapon:
[Greatstaff of the Nexus]

Eilt · 01/19/09, 12:45 PM

Assuming you do not the hit [Matriarch's Spawn] Is probably the best in slot OH.

Compared to SUrplus Limb:
- 13 stam (not a DPS stat though)
+ 3 int
+43 spirit (~6 spelldamage and some regen)
-9 haste (-0.27%)
+ 1 spellpower

Since haste is usually wehighted just slightly above 80% of spellpower the 9 haste and the ~7 spellpower are pretty comparable actually. Giving the limb a light +3 int advantage.

Of course if you need the hit, the Surplus Limb is an easy choice.

Nenaunir · 01/19/09, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Eilt

GC's latest post, I think we can finally settle the discussion, iFF should be taken, even if you are not casting it for the hit portion of the spell.

Off course this only applies if you are raiding together with a Feral druid who keeps up Faerie Fire or have a second moonkin who keeps it up. Though this might be true for the majority of the guilds it's not a given.

dukes · 01/19/09, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nenaunir

Off course this only applies if you are raiding together with a Feral druid who keeps up Faerie Fire or have a second moonkin who keeps it up. Though this might be true for the majority of the guilds it's not a given.

Lets look at this logically:

The alternatives to the FF/FFF armour debuff are:
- A Warlock casting Curse of Recklessness - this is not really a viable alternative due to the amount of DPS lost through not being able to use a damage curse; and
- A BM hunter using a Wasp for Sting. I don't think I've ever seen a BM hunter using a Wasp while raiding due to it not being as much dps as alternative pets.

Following from this, as long as you're in the raid as a balance druid, there are the 2 following scenarios:
- You are the only balance or feral druid in the raid. In this case, you should be using FF for the melee benefit as it's significantly more dps than your loss; or
- There is a feral druid in the raid and they are casting FFF.

In both scenarios you gain the benefit of IFF.

This means you should always take IFF as there will always be FF on the target and therefore you will benefit from the 3% crit aspect. This completely ignores the benefit of 3% hit from IFF, which will also be utilised if you don't have a shadow priest (and is more than enough reason in itself to take the talent anyway).