I skip Feral aggression -- spending those 5 points in Brutal Impact and Infected Wounds. I figure that my usual tanking duties will be in 5 person heroics, and that these talents will be helpful for maintaining control in that context.
Improved Mark of the Wild providing 2% to our attributes is a nice surprise -- I hate to give up 100% chance of rage on switch, but 2% is a nice bribe.
I also skip King of the Jungle and do not crawl down to Master Shapeshifter -- 5 points just seems like too much to pay for the 4% increase in damage/threat. What's is the analysis of the folks who prioritize Master Shapeshifter?
For the folks that prioritize Feral Aggression -- what's your analysis?
I skip Feral aggression -- spending those 5 points in Brutal Impact and Infected Wounds. I figure that my usual tanking duties will be in 5 person heroics, and that these talents will be helpful for maintaining control in that context.
Improved Mark of the Wild providing 2% to our attributes is a nice surprise -- I hate to give up 100% chance of rage on switch, but 2% is a nice bribe.
I also skip King of the Jungle and do not crawl down to Master Shapeshifter -- 5 points just seems like too much to pay for the 4% increase in damage/threat. What's is the analysis of the folks who prioritize Master Shapeshifter?
For the folks that prioritize Feral Aggression -- what's your analysis?
Analysis is that heroics are trivial that you don't need to use Bash much if at all, even when I started tanking at 80 i never felt the need to interrupt or stun to reduce intake damage as a tank.
Infected wounds is important, but you can easily give up Imp mangle for it and keep the points in FA, as it is such a trivial increase in threat.
On top of everything feral aggression's 5/5 ap reduction doesn't go to waste like in TBC, where 2/5 in imp demo roar was sufficient, so when you're on tanking duty, reducing damage on bosses (which mostly can't be interrupted, or can be interrupted by someone more suitable for the job) having a good damage reduction talent seem to be more desirable.
I didn't see this discussed anywhere in either this thread or the simple questions/answer thread so I thought I'd bring it up.
I noticed while soloing ZG that Infected Wounds and Mangle did not always seem to refresh properly on targets. Specifically, Mangle (Bear) did not always refresh the stack of infected wounds that was up on the boss. Upon further investigation and looking at my combat log, I noticed that Infected Wounds can apparently miss, at least according to the combat log message. Three examples of this are shown below; I apologize for the small size of the screens (I'm not very familiar with uploading images), but I have pointed out in each where this is happening.
Is this something that has always been occuring or that is so widely known that nobody talks about it? From the tooltip on the talent description, I am led to believe that it is a 100% chance to apply, but this clearly does not seem to be the case.
I didn't see this discussed anywhere in either this thread or the simple questions/answer thread so I thought I'd bring it up.
I noticed while soloing ZG that Infected Wounds and Mangle did not always seem to refresh properly on targets. Specifically, Mangle (Bear) did not always refresh the stack of infected wounds that was up on the boss. Upon further investigation and looking at my combat log, I noticed that Infected Wounds can apparently miss, at least according to the combat log message. Three examples of this are shown below; I apologize for the small size of the screens (I'm not very familiar with uploading images), but I have pointed out in each where this is happening.
Is this something that has always been occuring or that is so widely known that nobody talks about it? From the tooltip on the talent description, I am led to believe that it is a 100% chance to apply, but this clearly does not seem to be the case.
Well I have been liking the patch so far. Haven't really changed from my pre-patch build yet. I am wanting to see just how much additional damage and threat I will get out of PG before committing to a build.
If someone had told me I would be seriously considering not taking Imp Mangle, OoC and PG a few weeks ago I would have laughed. But the other tank will have a harder time bringing the AP debff so I get the job of doing it.
Plus I have noticed a decent increase in threat and damage with the patch so the lack of some DPS talents wont be missed especially with the addition MSS.
The no more Imp Mangle will definitely make cycling Mangle with FFF easier. FFF hits like a truck now. FFF would hit for slightly less than 1k, Omen would show threat at ~3.3k with out me doing anything else. Higher on crits of course. So it has a new constant place in my rotation.
Well I have been liking the patch so far. Haven't really changed from my pre-patch build yet. I am wanting to see just how much additional damage and threat I will get out of PG before committing to a build.
If someone had told me I would be seriously considering not taking Imp Mangle, OoC and PG a few weeks ago I would have laughed. But the other tank will have a harder time bringing the AP debff so I get the job of doing it.
Plus I have noticed a decent increase in threat and damage with the patch so the lack of some DPS talents wont be missed especially with the addition MSS.
The no more Imp Mangle will definitely make cycling Mangle with FFF easier. FFF hits like a truck now. FFF would hit for slightly less than 1k, Omen would show threat at ~3.3k with out me doing anything else. Higher on crits of course. So it has a new constant place in my rotation.
Unntil they decide to remove Savage Defense procs from Lacerate crits, Primal Gore is a must have for tanking (especially for only 1 point). If your point is to max the AP debuff, then why not max FA? Imp Mangle is not a must have, but there is almost no reason to take MSS in a tank build. Hell, if you're dropping OoC because you never have rage problems you should just drop PF too. ILotP might not be huge, but if threat is not an issue even small heals would help.
Omen of Clarity really should be in any tanking build, or for that matter any Feral build. As it helps in low rage situations generate addition rage from allowing you to get in extra attacks you wouldn't be able to, and maintaining good dps even while OTing/dps when tanking but need to do some dps for a bit of the fight.
KotJ is also pretty nice, point for point it will probably allow you to generate more threat especially on AE pulls when threat is most critical to a Bear, if worried about increased dmg taken during those times you can combo it with Barkskin.
With alot of bosses in Ulduar have points where adds or the boss can be either stun or interrupts it might be a good idea to also get Brutal impact, especially for the 10man Iron council fight, and tanking adds during Ignis.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Is my current tanking build, Imp mangle doesn't seem worth it now that FFF does equal tps ranged, and only down side is that its crits don't proc SD.
For an Ulduar tanking/offtanking bear spec, KotJ is one of the most easily dropped "optional" talents. All it takes is a bit of planning ahead to Enrage before any pull, and get that rage built up. Given our drop in armor already with 3.1 and how hard even trash can hit in Ulduar, it's not wise to use it much during raiding combat. With our talent points at a premium even in a pure tanking build, those 3 points are often better used elsewhere. From a "how often will I actually use this?" perspective, KotJ is pretty weak.
Has the new FF damage increase done anything to increase its threat? I recall seeing somewhere that FF should be in our tanking cycle for threat but I can't seem to find it anymore. Currently I'm still just using mangle when its up, lacerate to refresh a 5 stack and swiping when there is nothing with a higher priority to do. I haven't had any real threat issues yet but people are definitely close on Omen. It can get a bit bad on fights with a lot of movement and/or buffs (like Hodir).
I also respecced Brutal Impact after seeing Council to support interrupts and to stun whatever can be stunned. It is useful on Auriaya for stunning adds, on Thorim for interrupts and stuns on melee (the melee guys in tunnel can hurt a lot, i got killed from 100% in 2 seconds when i got really unlucy on the stuns they do).
I also miss 5/5 furor sometimes, with 3/5 it can get annoying to get initial rage, or sometimes i just change to bear to charge and i am left standing there without rage. At the moment my tank build has Imp. Mangle, i am thinking about dropping it and put 2 points back to furor and 1 into KotJ.
Generally I find that KotJ still has a good number of uses, during tanking situations when you have to trade aggro off on a boss like Kologahn poping enrage helps keep your threat up while not taking hits. AE is generally the main use though of KotJ as poping it during Auyiah tonight allowed a good deal of dmg during the spirit wolves phase.
The other problem I find with not taking it is that their really isnt much else to chose from for 3 points, master shape shifter doesn't feel worth it for 5 points for 4% higher threat where KotJ is 15% increased dmg that I can control the timing of it when I really need the threat boost, Not to mention Berserk+ KotJ= Win for threat/dmg.
Also on auyiah tonight found that the add she summons Feral Defender does the rogue ability where it randomly strikes multiple enemies and cannot be taunted or gotten out of this unless Stunned, just another example where Brutal Impact is coming in handy.
It is a little hard to run 3/5 Furor, I miss shifting to get minimum rage for a charge, but over all I think its worth it.
Highlights -
Feral Tree - I've never been a fan of 5/5 FA, so in this build its only 1/5 because I had an extra talent point I that wasn't being used. I use bash a whole lot, so it has 2/2 Brutal Impact. Like others, I think that improved mangle isn't really worth the 3 talent points.
Resto Tree - 2/2 iMoTW, pretty self explanatory, 2% attributes is nice. I'm still not convinced that 3/5 Furor is a good way to go. I know its only at the start of a fight, and an enrage will take care of the problem. But I hate switching to bear form, and not having the rage to do a feral charge.
No BI for me right now. I all ready know I will miss it, if it is that irritating to not have I will drop ILotP I think. Then if no ILotP gets annoying some points from either FA or FI. Depends on how hard I am getting hit and how threat is looking.
Has the new FF damage increase done anything to increase its threat?
I have seen FFF hit for a little below 1k damage and put up slightly over 3k threat. It belongs in your rotation especially since it only costs a GCD. Working it is the main reason I have dropped Imp Mangle.
The rotation was really wonky with the 6 and 4.5 CD's competing. Stretches out to some thing like 27 GCDs.
Still not perfect at it but will likely be using a FFF -> Mangle -> Lacerate -> Lacerate -> repeat based rotation. With Maul thrown in as able.
Swipe replacing Lacerate once at 5 stacks, except to keep up the stack, if my AP is above the threshold that makes Swipe higher threat. Which is roughly 6k AP if I recall, unless it changed.
Highlights -
Feral Tree - I've never been a fan of 5/5 FA, so in this build its only 1/5 because I had an extra talent point I that wasn't being used. I use bash a whole lot, so it has 2/2 Brutal Impact. Like others, I think that improved mangle isn't really worth the 3 talent points.
Resto Tree - 2/2 iMoTW, pretty self explanatory, 2% attributes is nice. I'm still not convinced that 3/5 Furor is a good way to go. I know its only at the start of a fight, and an enrage will take care of the problem. But I hate switching to bear form, and not having the rage to do a feral charge.
Thoughts/comments?
Judging from my experiences so far in Udluar, I'd say 5/5 FA is a must. The sheer amount of damage even some trash mobs can do is surprising. And I would not like to be tanking Ignis, Steelbreaker or Kologarn without that extra ~160AP reduction.
I leaning towards 2/2 BI lately. I tanked in Ulduar last night without it, and there are definitely moments I wanted to bash and it was on CD. Adds on Razorscale, Ignis and Stormcaller come to mind.
If you have a fury or arms warrior, FA is still a useless talent, as they provide demo shout with the lowest cost as discussed in the overlapping buffs thread.
If you have a fury or arms warrior, FA is still a useless talent, as they provide demo shout with the lowest cost as discussed in the overlapping buffs thread.
I find it very rare that you will be in a position that you need demo shout and there is a warrior with improved demo to provide it. I don't ever see dps warriors taking the talent. Any time there would be a prot warrior tanking the same encounter, fights are spread out such that he won't be debuffing your mob. Whether improved is needed or not is a different discussion, but if so you can't count on anyone else to provide it.
Unntil they decide to remove Savage Defense procs from Lacerate crits, Primal Gore is a must have for tanking (especially for only 1 point). If your point is to max the AP debuff, then why not max FA? Imp Mangle is not a must have, but there is almost no reason to take MSS in a tank build. Hell, if you're dropping OoC because you never have rage problems you should just drop PF too. ILotP might not be huge, but if threat is not an issue even small heals would help.
I have dropped OOC and I don't find it an issue, unless I'm tanking in Naxx I'm seriously thinking about dropping one point of PF as well, since in Ulduar rage is really not a problem. In my first build I had no OOC and 2/5 Ferocity and that was a bit too extreme. Ferocity affects a lot of skills and not taking it increases the rage requirements a bit too much.
ILotP I personally will take ALWAYS. We already take too much damage, and in Ulduar I sometime use the polar vest with full stamina gems for better survival but less avoidance. The small ILotP heal increases with the HP pool and is worth 170+ HPS. Together with the 5/5 Feral Aggression this helps keeping down the HPS requirements.
I have dropped OOC and I don't find it an issue, unless I'm tanking in Naxx I'm seriously thinking about dropping one point of PF as well, since in Ulduar rage is really not a problem. In my first build I had no OOC and 2/5 Ferocity and that was a bit too extreme. Ferocity affects a lot of skills and not taking it increases the rage requirements a bit too much.
ILotP I personally will take ALWAYS. We already take too much damage, and in Ulduar I sometime use the polar vest with full stamina gems for better survival but less avoidance. The small ILotP heal increases with the HP pool and is worth 170+ HPS. Together with the 5/5 Feral Aggression this helps keeping down the HPS requirements.
In your build linked above you did not include ILotP. So, you can't say ALWAYS. My biggest point is that dropping PG is a very bad idea.
So what is the value for Feral Aggression? My guild only has four raiding tanks, 2 pallys a warrior and my bear. On 10 mans it is just me and a pally and I doubt the warrior will be on the same target I am if I'm tanking. So assuming there isn't another druid or war tank, how much of a difference will the improved demo roar make? It seems like a very small reduction in AP because the bosses hurt like they have 20K, but I've yet to find out how much AP a boss really has.
In your build linked above you did not include ILotP. So, you can't say ALWAYS. My biggest point is that dropping PG is a very bad idea.
Uh? My build linked where? I think it's my 1st post in this thread.... I always kept ILotP in my builds, even DPS ones.
My current build is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As for dropping PG, I've been thinking about it as well. But I see PG as 3-fold advantage: crit procs for SD, more damage, crit for more rage, so there are other things I may drop before PG. In my build I'd like to go back to 5/5 Naturalist but I don't know where to pull the point from. The candidates are PP (but I like the extra expertise), PF (not sure about rage management, I know that with 2/5 Ferocity rage was a problem), or FI (which would weaken my aggro-getting on packs a lot more than 4/5 Naturalist).
@ kcirreda: I saw a number foating around which gives -5% melee damage from 5/5 FA, but I admit I never tested it personally.
Uh? My build linked where? I think it's my 1st post in this thread.... I always kept ILotP in my builds, even DPS ones.
My current build is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As for dropping PG, I've been thinking about it as well. But I see PG as 3-fold advantage: crit procs for SD, more damage, crit for more rage, so there are other things I may drop before PG. In my build I'd like to go back to 5/5 Naturalist but I don't know where to pull the point from. The candidates are PP (but I like the extra expertise), PF (not sure about rage management, I know that with 2/5 Ferocity rage was a problem), or FI (which would weaken my aggro-getting on packs a lot more than 4/5 Naturalist).
@ kcirreda: I saw a number foating around which gives -5% melee damage from 5/5 FA, but I admit I never tested it personally.
Sorry, it wasn't your post I was originally responding to. I got posters mixed up.
Uh? My build linked where? I think it's my 1st post in this thread.... I always kept ILotP in my builds, even DPS ones.
My current build is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As for dropping PG, I've been thinking about it as well. But I see PG as 3-fold advantage: crit procs for SD, more damage, crit for more rage, so there are other things I may drop before PG. In my build I'd like to go back to 5/5 Naturalist but I don't know where to pull the point from. The candidates are PP (but I like the extra expertise), PF (not sure about rage management, I know that with 2/5 Ferocity rage was a problem), or FI (which would weaken my aggro-getting on packs a lot more than 4/5 Naturalist).
@ kcirreda: I saw a number foating around which gives -5% melee damage from 5/5 FA, but I admit I never tested it personally.
How much mileage are you getting out of Brutal Impact? In my opinion the last point in Naturalist and Omen of Clarity are far more important. Compared to other tanking classes, our interrupts/stuns are fairly meager, and reducing Bash from 60 seconds to 30 seconds does not suddenly make us fantastic in that department.
On a side note, I was getting exceedingly frustrated shifting my whole mana bar to try and get 10 rage that I am now back to 5/5 furor.
Uh? My build linked where? I think it's my 1st post in this thread.... I always kept ILotP in my builds, even DPS ones.
My current build is this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As for dropping PG, I've been thinking about it as well. But I see PG as 3-fold advantage: crit procs for SD, more damage, crit for more rage, so there are other things I may drop before PG. In my build I'd like to go back to 5/5 Naturalist but I don't know where to pull the point from. The candidates are PP (but I like the extra expertise), PF (not sure about rage management, I know that with 2/5 Ferocity rage was a problem), or FI (which would weaken my aggro-getting on packs a lot more than 4/5 Naturalist).
@ kcirreda: I saw a number foating around which gives -5% melee damage from 5/5 FA, but I admit I never tested it personally.
If you're raiding in a 25 man setting with decent amount of interrupts then you should not need Brutal Impact. As already mentioned, skipping 2% damage and OoC is a significant drop in threat versus the benefit you're getting.
04/16/09, 1:52 PM
I'm seriously thinking about dropping one point of PF as well, since in Ulduar rage is really not a problem. In my first build I had no OOC and 2/5 Ferocity and that was a bit too extreme. Ferocity affects a lot of skills and not taking it increases the rage requirements a bit too much.
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