Tanking talent build - Page 12

Mijae · 02/17/09, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by mesullivan

In general, I think of expertise as a pretty good stat, because while it is not exceptional as a threat *or* mitigation stat, it provides both. As a tank or hybrid expertise (up to the parry cap) dominates hit, because it provides the same dps and some mitigation. That said, agility seems like the #1 premium stat because it is second best threat (because without savage roar,you can't reach the obscene levels of AP required for hit/exp to outpace agility for threat) *and* best pure mitigation, second best TTL.

Actually, agility is the absolute worst stat for threat. I'm not sure why you bring up savage roar in relation to tanking.

It's well-known how good agility and stamina are for tanking. It's also pretty well established that expertise is the absolute best stat for threat (with hit being equal after dodge cap) and has at least some defensive value. How much you can lower defensive stats for dps/tps stats is purely a matter of personal choice and encounter mechanics.

Monedula · 02/18/09, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Actually, agility is the absolute worst stat for threat. I'm not sure why you bring up savage roar in relation to tanking.

It's well-known how good agility and stamina are for tanking. It's also pretty well established that expertise is the absolute best stat for threat (with hit being equal after dodge cap) and has at least some defensive value. How much you can lower defensive stats for dps/tps stats is purely a matter of personal choice and encounter mechanics.

Hit is not equal to expertise after dodge cap.
Though the parry varies per boss most bosses have a higher parry cap then dodge cap. If the boss parries an attack he can get a buff that increases the speed at which he hits, hitting the tank more in the same period, thus a dps increase on the tank. Even after dodge cap I would choose expertise over hit any time.

However at the moment I am not that worried about threat generation. Untill that becomes a real problem I will start using expertise over agility/dodge gems for tanking.

• Melthu · 02/18/09, 10:36 AM

He was referring only to the threat gained by stacking hit vs. expertise, not overall benefit. And actually, if your only goal is to maximize threat as much as possible hit overtakes expertise ever so slightly once you're past the dodge cap since it affects Faerie Fire.

Smoothie · 02/19/09, 3:20 PM

Forgive my noobishness. I have two 80 druids, a tree who is my main, and a bear who is just getting into heroics in an attempt to get geared up. What does this mean?

Originally Posted by mesullivan

Once you get pretty far clear of the 30-30-30 requirement...

I'm guessing 30K health, 30K armor, but what's the other 30? It can't be %dodge - 30 seems way low, since mine's a good bit higher then that and I'm still in nearly all blues.

kalbear · 02/19/09, 4:22 PM

30% dodge is right. And it is low, but it's not nearly as low as it could be. If you were to stack stam, go for the polar and pvp gear, you'd have a bit less than that.

The 30-30-30 rule is the bare minimum for each category.

Ahura · 02/20/09, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by Boylston

0.) Maul continuously if you have the rage for it...
1.) Mangle/IW x 2 on target and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and off cooldown), use Mangle.
2.) Lacerate at full stack count and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and you need the threat), then Lacerate.
3.) Demoralizing roar on target? If no (and needed). use Demoralizing Roar.
3.) Swipe

Like the vast majority of bears out there, if my target is one that lives long enough, it is going to have a 5-stack of Lacerate on it.

However, an RL friend of mine recently dinged 80 on his newly-rolled druid and was told by his guildies to go read the tanking guide that is posted on the official WoW forums. He did, and he came back with a question regarding Lacerate vs. Swipe. In the guide, the author says:

Swipe is your "AOE" attack, hitting all targets in front of you at once. If you have 3/3 Feral Instinct, the threat generated by Swipe will be greater then the threat generated by Lacerate. This means this will be your primary Threat ability when not using Mangle. However, you must be careful when using this ability around CCed mobs.

This has really got me thinking, but I haven't had the time to collect data for myself. I'm going to do some extensive testing this weekend and will update you all. I was wondering, though, if anybody can comment on the topic one way or another. If testing has been done in the past, I'd rather not spend a few hours re-inventing the wheel this weekend.

Monedula · 02/21/09, 6:19 AM

Swipe is the primary threat ability. Mangle has a cd and swipe does more threat then lacerate.
However lacerate, once up needs only to be refreshed once every 15 seconds.
So main single target agro gaining:
Mangle whenever.
Maul whenever (watch rage, maul does not give rage)
Lacerate to a stack of 5 and keep it up
Swipe swipe swipe till you can't swipe no more.

Kalon had a blog entry on it some time ago with numbers.
ThinkTank
Look at the entries made on 15th and 16th of januari.

PS: with swipe and cc'd mobs you indeed need to watch it. Same goes for maul since glyph of maul hits 2 targets. I tried tanking without glyph of maul (forgot to glyph it) and I can tell you you will have that glyph in use!
But also; I can't remember the last time I saw a sheeped target. It might change with Ulduar though.
PS2: As to Demoralizing Roar. It is bad on generating threat. I seldom use it. Good to do an aoe ability for unagro'd mobs or when being attacked by packs of mobs to decrease incoming damage. On tanking packs; since you can;t hit behind you position fast and swipe/maul.

Boylston · 02/21/09, 5:23 PM

If you read all the guy's blog posts, he then states that:

The first surprise that you might have is that these numbers show that lacerate, not swipe, is the best threat. But...didn't I just say the opposite a couple weeks ago? Yep. The main reason is that that calculation assumed a 30% armor reduction, which is a bit unrealistic. 40% is closer to the mark. With that and a low-ish AP value (5k is pretty low for raiding tanks), lacerate wins out on threat. If you instead have 6k AP, swipe wins out again. So I was still right...it just means that if you're on the lower end of gear, spamming swipe for threat is not as good as lacerating.

For simplicity sake, I generally just load up a mangle+5xLacerate stack and then refresh Lacerate throughout a fight. My threat lead is generally so good after the first 30seconds or so that I can just plain ole maul spam on single target boss fights that last a long time. Maul+Swipe spam is really very, very good in both single target and AoE situations, honestly. No need to get crazy about perfecting TPS, currently.

Monedula · 02/21/09, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Boylston

No need to get crazy about perfecting TPS, currently.

Except for Malygos maybe. And best to get some practice before Uldaman.

Btw the "guy" is kalon, kalbear who frequently posts on this forum too.

Athari · 02/22/09, 2:00 AM

I am currently considering this spec for 3rd tank/dps in 25 mans and maybe OT in 10 mans. My thinking is that iLotP is wasted in a 25 man enviroment and downright unwanted on Patchwerk. Master Shapeshifter is ok as a bear but will help greatly as a cat. I'm not sure about the 3 points in IW as we have a both a Warrior and DK alternating as MT, should I perhaps spend them in a more kitty oriented talent? Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Boevis · 02/22/09, 7:16 PM

I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't want iLotP on patchwerk, certainly it may not be needed once you out gear an instance, but free healing is always welcome. One option you may want to consider, is taking Shredding Attacks and KotJ instead of MS, the TPS in bear is nearly identical, and you gain significantly more DPS when in catform.

Athari · 02/23/09, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't want iLotP on patchwerk, certainly it may not be needed once you out gear an instance, but free healing is always welcome. One option you may want to consider, is taking Shredding Attacks and KotJ instead of MS, the TPS in bear is nearly identical, and you gain significantly more DPS when in catform.

We usually run with the DPS intentionally running into the slime to always stay at about 50% health so them getting heals isn't what we want at the moment. But I do see a certain logic to your suggestions. Is IW a must have? Got [Origin of Nightmares] last night so it looks like I can respec any day now...

blackhand0114 · 02/23/09, 1:56 AM

Infected wound is a must have if you have no other slowing effect. IE no prot warrior or DK that's spec'd for it. I'd think it would be a dps lose to have a Fury/Arms warrior keep up TC through a fight. Plus there are enough fights where you don't want or can't have someone running across the room to keep the slow up. So you might has well always pack one for yourself.

david0925 · 02/23/09, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Athari

We usually run with the DPS intentionally running into the slime to always stay at about 50% health so them getting heals isn't what we want at the moment. But I do see a certain logic to your suggestions. Is IW a must have? Got [Origin of Nightmares] last night so it looks like I can respec any day now...

Infected Wound isn't necessary if the mob(s) you're tanking has either
1.Tanking Warrior putting up TC (DPS warrior loss a lot by using TC)
2.A Death Knight with 3/3 Improved Icy Touch

In current raiding environment, since there isn't a fight where there are a lot of movement and separation, you can probably get away with not having IW, especially with how popular 32/39 DW Death Knights has been. However, the most important thing is that you look at the raid and make sure you have the appropriate debuffer.

As for Patchwerk, as long as your DPS are not stupid and attack before at least the first Hateful Strike soaker gets hit (aka not dodge/miss/parry), they don't need to dip in the slime.

With all that said, if you want to be a self-sufficient tank as well as maximizing your tanking talents, ILoTP and IW are both solid candidates. If you find yourself filling a more offtanking role for 2 fights and doing dps a lot, then you can easily drop IW and pick up Predatory Instincts for improved crit damage and AoE avoidance in cat, and drop ILoTP for Shredding Attack to significantly increase your damage output as cat.

Athari · 02/23/09, 2:55 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

Infected Wound isn't necessary if the mob(s) you're tanking has either
1.Tanking Warrior putting up TC (DPS warrior loss a lot by using TC)
2.A Death Knight with 3/3 Improved Icy Touch

In current raiding environment, since there isn't a fight where there are a lot of movement and separation, you can probably get away with not having IW, especially with how popular 32/39 DW Death Knights has been. However, the most important thing is that you look at the raid and make sure you have the appropriate debuffer.

As for Patchwerk, as long as your DPS are not stupid and attack before at least the first Hateful Strike soaker gets hit (aka not dodge/miss/parry), they don't need to dip in the slime.

With all that said, if you want to be a self-sufficient tank as well as maximizing your tanking talents, ILoTP and IW are both solid candidates. If you find yourself filling a more offtanking role for 2 fights and doing dps a lot, then you can easily drop IW and pick up Predatory Instincts for improved crit damage and AoE avoidance in cat, and drop ILoTP for Shredding Attack to significantly increase your damage output as cat.

We currently have a Prot War as MT and a Frost DK as OT so I'm mostly going to DPS as it looks now, so I'm probably going to follow your last suggestions. Thanks.