Tanking talent build - Page 2

kalbear · 11/21/08, 5:44 PM

Looking to be a Off tank /dps in raid settings. Is thick hide needed attribute anymore? Since the massive down grade in druid armor and the lack of high armor items for druids these days makes beleive that armor is very low on the totem poll. Agi and STa seem to be the rising fad that everyone will strive to obtain.

10% more overall armor is 10% more overall armor. Thick hide is a multiplier for all armor no matter the source. No thick hide would result in the loss of about 2000-3000 armor depending on your gear level.

Gearing for armor specifically is not big on the totem pole, but having a lot of it still is.

Baggles · 11/24/08, 5:52 AM

Currently using this for 5 and 25-man tanking. I can't stress enough how little of an issue threat is at this point. You should reliably hold double the threat of your highest dps with no problem. What's good about this spec, also, is that it allows you to still do very high kitty dps. I have been top 5 on a number of 25-man encounters with this spec. You basically give up shred, which does hurt, but if you go with 2p t6, you just keep up SR, rake, rip, and mangle when you have the energy. Shred on clearcasts, and the extra CP allows for a bite in between generally (although it does not guarantee crit).

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?

Also:

Originally Posted by kalbear

10% more overall armor is 10% more overall armor. Thick hide is a multiplier for all armor no matter the source. No thick hide would result in the loss of about 2000-3000 armor depending on your gear level.

Gearing for armor specifically is not big on the totem pole, but having a lot of it still is.

This is not entirely accurate.

Increases your Armor contribution from items by 10%.

(Thick Hide - Spell - World of Warcraft) so no, it is not flat overall armor contribution. It is only armor on items, not including base armor, or armor from stats. Although, the argument is sound: any tanking build should realistically take this talent, especially since armor is our bread and butter.

• Abradix · 11/24/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Baggles

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?

I'll just go ahead and quote myself here.

Originally Posted by Abradix

Having said that, Rend and Tear and Maul are not "Nice", they're borderline overpowered and Maul will be the source of 50-60% of your threat and damage on any fight you main tank, making RnT much more powerful then Master Shapeshifter (5 points for a 2% damage buff per point, vs 5 points for 0.8% damage buff per point if you include the 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter).

To elaborate on that, you bothered to take Imp Shapeshifter, which is 5 points for a 4% damage buff, but think that Rend and Tear, an approximate 11% damage buff while tanking, isn't good enough. Here is a WWS to support that statement, and this was in horrible gear and a very low crit on Maul, with it being 10% under expected crit rate. Factor in that Maul is our best scaling attack, and will soon be 60-65% of our total damage, you cannot possibly say that Rend and Tear is too weak.

geela234 · 11/24/08, 1:53 PM

I've found that in most cases when I'm tanking appropriate level mobs I have a rage surplus. Maul is usually always up, making rend and tear invaluable. Its really a non issue, if anything I could get rid of omen, which is what most people did at 70.

Dumping points into natural and master shapeshifter is a waste of 5 talent points, aside from what Abradix has already stated I never change forms when tanking, and even if I did, it would be for a rebirth or innervate and right back to bear.

I'm assuming that the hesitancy towards Rend and Tear is because it only affects maul and isn't a broad 20% increase to dmg. Blizzard stated in there Wrath beta forms that they wanted each talent point to be about 1% damage increase which would make this more then worth the points spent and even a little over powered.

Other that that I really can't see any other way of proving Rend and Tears power, I will always have it in my build.

Chiman · 11/24/08, 4:18 PM

Rend and Tear is amazing, in my opinion. Considering I usually mangle and toss a lacerate on Skull and X, my Mauls are through the roof. 30% extra damage from mangling, and the 20% from bleeding. Glyph of Mangle (goes without saying Glyph of Maul is a must) is pretty nice in this situation. For bosses, I stack 5 lacerates, and keep them up, swiping in between. In both 5/10/25-mans, rage is never an issue, I find myself almost never hitting with plain white damage. I might as well macro maul to every move. I'm consistently pushing between 1600-2000 DPS in heroics, with the majority, (about 60%) of the damage being from maul.

Baggles · 11/24/08, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Abradix

I'll just go ahead and quote myself here.

To elaborate on that, you bothered to take Imp Shapeshifter, which is 5 points for a 4% damage buff, but think that Rend and Tear, an approximate 11% damage buff while tanking, isn't good enough. Here is a WWS to support that statement, and this was in horrible gear and a very low crit on Maul, with it being 10% under expected crit rate. Factor in that Maul is our best scaling attack, and will soon be 60-65% of our total damage, you cannot possibly say that Rend and Tear is too weak.

Counterpoint: As an OT, I much prefer the spec I posted. As a MT, you will probably want R&T. The reason being, in a 5 or 10-man, you're doing a ton of swiping. R&T doesn't apply to swipe, and often putting up bleeds is a waste of time on trash. Moreover, unless you run with a second feral or an arms war, or a hunter with that specific pet, no one else is gonna bleed anything for you. On boss fights, your threat should be through the roof, and you suffer a very small damage penalty.

Here is a WWS of a KT kill; I dps'd to 40%, picked up all 4 adds. Now, obviously this isn't gospel because the numbers are clearly skewed (I didn't record the WWS, no idea why it picked up multiplied values for swipe and maul a couple of times) but even if you completely subtract out all of the skewed hits, I am still 4th or so.

Now, here is a WWS of dps on Sapphiron. This is a great OT spec because it allows you to still pull 3k+ dps even in non-ideal fight, and even allows you to switch rolls mid-fight.

I wish I had better reports to back it up, but it's been a week, so its hard to pull numbers right now. Plenty of recount parses back it up, though.

lawl · 11/25/08, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

I had read it here somewhere. I had hoped my comment would provoke someone to post a link because I just spent a half hour trying to find it myself.

Unless boss AP has jumped considerably, you won't need 5/5. Boss AP was ~300 at level 60 and ~340 at 70. The only reason people went 5/5 before is effectively gone.

So how many points do I need in feral aggression to hit the AP reduction cap for bosses?

I'm look to spec the optimal tank build for survival, with threat and DPS being secondary.

1 point? 5 points?

What AP do level 80 bosses have?

Azzog · 11/29/08, 12:22 PM

ok guys threat gen question. aprox. how much threat can a druid put out and is it still where druids can compete with warriors for MT spots. from a thraet generations stance in BC druids were kings agians all but a extremly good warrior with the gear to back him up. im wondering how the different tallent changes for warriors and druids and the redution in the amount of armor we are going to have is going to make a difference in out viablity as a tank and as a main tank.

Azzog-70 fury warrior
Darkbaer-70 feral druid

david0925 · 11/29/08, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Azzog

ok guys threat gen question. aprox. how much threat can a druid put out and is it still where druids can compete with warriors for MT spots. from a thraet generations stance in BC druids were kings agians all but a extremly good warrior with the gear to back him up. im wondering how the different tallent changes for warriors and druids and the redution in the amount of armor we are going to have is going to make a difference in out viablity as a tank and as a main tank.

Azzog-70 fury warrior
Darkbaer-70 feral druid

First of all, don't sign your posts. I'm almost convinced that's why you got infractions. Spell-checking your post will also be a good idea.

With that out of the way, the threat generation from all 4 tanking classes are insane right now. Your guild should simply choose the better player, or the one that can guarantee higher attendance to be the main tank. I personally prefer a OT role because our damage output is very high right now in a raid situation even with a full tanking spec, not to mention that unlike Sunwell, not very raid bosses offer main-tanking breaks to allow a druid to use his battle rez or innervate, effective neglecting that part of the class.

For druids that have already geared themselves to near armor cap (pretty much need neck, ring, and trinket slots with armor pieces), their mitigation right now is ridiculous. However, this will drop quite drastically when the armor patch is in.

unitsinc · 11/30/08, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

First of all, don't sign your posts. I'm almost convinced that's why you got infractions. Spell-checking your post will also be a good idea.

With that out of the way, the threat generation from all 4 tanking classes are insane right now. Your guild should simply choose the better player, or the one that can guarantee higher attendance to be the main tank. I personally prefer a OT role because our damage output is very high right now in a raid situation even with a full tanking spec, not to mention that unlike Sunwell, not very raid bosses offer main-tanking breaks to allow a druid to use his battle rez or innervate, effective neglecting that part of the class.

For druids that have already geared themselves to near armor cap (pretty much need neck, ring, and trinket slots with armor pieces), their mitigation right now is ridiculous. However, this will drop quite drastically when the armor patch is in.

According to Rawr the highest geared druids will only be losing roughly 3% DR. I wouldn't say that that is too terribly drastic.

Changer_executus · 12/01/08, 6:47 AM

I have now main tanked all content in this new expansion. As main tank i get priority on the gear i need so my mitigation and threat output have steadily improved in the last few weeks. As i started out with very low dodge when hitting level 80 (after getting few upgrades past SWP gear whilst leveling) i initially picked a spec that i felt would give me maximum survivability: Mitigation

However, i have started to notice that certain classes especially Mages and Warlocks who are now getting close to, if not at the hit cap (and are now stacking haste/crit) are starting to catch me up on threat after the first minute or two.

I now have 5 parts Dreamwalker and all the other items i could want except a decent tanking stick, so i have switched the 5 points in Feral Aggression for 5 points in Rend & Tear leaving me with this spec: Threat

The difference in TPS is really noticeable, and i didn't come close to having threat trouble on Heroic Malygos last night, even with casters in 100% damage increase zones.

Another great TPS boost i was using last night was bezerking when bloodlust was popped, this allowed me to spam mangle and maul on every cooldown for some really high threat figures, this gave me a massive lead over the dps even when they were in double damage increasing patches.

If threat becomes an issue again in the future i will look to use a spec with master shape shifter, although i will hate to spend 3 useless talent points to get to it.

Harmonics · 12/02/08, 3:28 PM

Going to quote abradix from earlier:

Originally Posted by Abradix

Having said that, Rend and Tear and Maul are not "Nice", they're borderline overpowered and Maul will be the source of 50-60% of your threat and damage on any fight you main tank, making RnT much more powerful then Master Shapeshifter (5 points for a 2% damage buff per point, vs 5 points for 0.8% damage buff per point if you include the 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter).

Any tanking build where you are going to be tanking a single target needs to have rend and tear.

Merendel · 12/03/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Baggles

Currently using this for 5 and 25-man tanking. I can't stress enough how little of an issue threat is at this point. You should reliably hold double the threat of your highest dps with no problem. What's good about this spec, also, is that it allows you to still do very high kitty dps. I have been top 5 on a number of 25-man encounters with this spec. You basically give up shred, which does hurt, but if you go with 2p t6, you just keep up SR, rake, rip, and mangle when you have the energy. Shred on clearcasts, and the extra CP allows for a bite in between generally (although it does not guarantee crit).

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?

Mangle spam basically only works with the 2T6 bonus for being "Good" DPS. Without that set bonus the DPS will be much much lower. There was some math done on the talent preview mega thread but the gist of it was with ferocity imp mangle and 2T6 mangle comes out to similar DPE to shred at early level 80 gear but falls further behind as gear levels scale up. The stats on the 2 gear slots you are sacrificing for the bonus will also start hurting you more past the T7 level.

Honestly I think RnT would be a much better choice for points even in a tank spec over master shifter. While master shapeshifter does give you 4% more on swipe and mangle in addition to maul it will come out to less damage overall on a single target that you know will be bleeding. Yes threat is not an issue on a single target now but you will do more damage over the course of the boss fight. Additionally it will be better for your style of DPS in that spec. With a rotation revolving around mangle instead of shred for its damage you will have enough CP for a 5/5/5 FR/Rip/FB finisher cycle assuming 2T7 and the rip glyph. Raid buffed FB will almost always crit with RnT on a boss target that will be bleeding.

renoreaper · 12/04/08, 4:11 AM

I'm usually 2nd OT (I prefer this role as often I get the possibility to shift out and CR or innervate a person, or even pop a tranq, there's also a lot of fights that don't require 3 tanks so I get to dps fairly often as well.).
So I'm currently going with this spec, I guess it's a bit unconvential and after reading some in here I have my doubts about not having primal precision.

What I've also noticed in practically every spec linked here is improved mangle, everyone seems to have it, I didn't take improved mangle, the talent just doesn't seems that great to me to be honest, sure having a mangle one gcd earlier is nice, but is it really that big of a TPS increase? I mean I lost my 2T6 a while back and from what I gathered here as you gear up the % of threat coming from maul goes up (so I'm assuming the % from mangle will go down?).
Furthermore I don't really use the -energycost on it as I don't have mangle in my dps rotation (since trauma is usually up).
I've not gotten feral agression and I'm probably going to drop infected wounds as well since one of the other tanks is specced for improved thunderclap and we have a dps warrior with 2/5 imp demoshout (is 2/5 enough though, seems nobody has been able to give a final answer about how much AP reduction you need on a boss nowadays).

After having read everything in here I'm considering speccing to something like this(well I might take one point out of predatory instincts and max primal precision) because I can rely on the other tanks for keeping up thunderclap wherever it matters (and with my current gear I should be able to survive fine in heroics now without infected wounds).

• Abradix · 12/04/08, 5:27 AM

Improved Mangle is around a 5% DPS boost for 3 points, with my WWS averaging around 20% of my damage coming from Mangle while tanking bosses. Additionally it increases the chance the mangle debuff stays on the target if you don't have a trauma warrior, which is probably the majority of raids but not your concern if you do have a trauma warrior in your raids.

Regarding your spec, it depends how much you value the tanking talents and how much you value the DPS part. Personally I question the value of Infected Wounds and Feral Instinct in your build, and would move that to 2/2 Primal Precision and 2/3 Imp Mangle. If you're looking for more DPS however, I'd invest in King of the Jungle instead.

Your second spec is a bit strange, in the sense that it takes away ALOT of DPS potential which you seem to want. For a pure bear spec it's alright, even though personally I don't value Infected Wounds and Primal Tenacity very high and would take Master Shapeshifter instead, with 1 point spare.