So Kalbear are you saying that we should use swipe during a normal (single target) tanking rotation? I do not understand how mangle/IM effects swipe
Mangle and improved mangle don't affect swipe. But swipe should normally be put in the rotation for max DPS and TPS. Lacerate should be done only when you have to keep the lacerate stack up or when starting the application. If you can't reliably keep a lacerate stack up, it's better to lacerate as little as possible (for example: on Malygos)
Mangle and improved mangle don't affect swipe. But swipe should normally be put in the rotation for max DPS and TPS. Lacerate should be done only when you have to keep the lacerate stack up or when starting the application. If you can't reliably keep a lacerate stack up, it's better to lacerate as little as possible (for example: on Malygos)
So why would you put swipe in your rotation on a single target? Both Maul and Swipe do not have a CD except for GCD. Because of this, why would it not be best to always spam maul (the more damaging of the two) and leave Swipe out completely?
So why would you put swipe in your rotation on a single target? Both Maul and Swipe do not have a CD except for GCD. Because of this, why would it not be best to always spam maul (the more damaging of the two) and leave Swipe out completely?
Maul is an on-next-hit ability and Swipe is an instant attack. Unless you are rage starved you use both.
If you're not rage starved, and have Improved Mangle, your rotation would be like this(at least mine is like this):
Begin with:
Mangle - Lacerate - Lacerate - Mangle - Lacerate - Lacerate
(now you have 4 stacks of lacerate)
From here on you'll use your GCDs for this rotation:
Mangle - Lacerate - Swipe - Mangle - Swipe - Swipe - Mangle - Lacerate - Swipe - Mangle - Swipe - Swipe
Note that you'll be kind of "spamming" Maul during all this, since it's off the GCD(bound to the next attack).
With this rotation you should be seeing Lacerate always at 5 stacks, and your mangle will always be ready the same time your last swipe GCD has gone.
Begin with:
Mangle - Lacerate - Lacerate - Mangle - Lacerate - Lacerate
(now you have 4 stacks of lacerate)
From here on you'll use your GCDs for this rotation:
Mangle - Lacerate - Swipe - Mangle - Swipe - Swipe - Mangle - Lacerate - Swipe - Mangle - Swipe - Swipe
I tend to think less about a "rotation" and more about keeping the appropriate debuff/threat abilities going. You have to think this way for kitty form as well, so it's not a new thing for most feral druids. My own personal checklist looks something like:
0.) Maul continuously if you have the rage for it...
1.) Mangle/IW x 2 on target and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and off cooldown), use Mangle.
2.) Lacerate at full stack count and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and you need the threat), then Lacerate.
3.) Demoralizing roar on target? If no (and needed). use Demoralizing Roar.
3.) Swipe
Your rotation accomplishes pretty much the same thing, but real fights don't always happen in a way that allows a perfect sequence.
Also, AoE tanking is slightly different, I think I can hold aggro while AoE tanking on the vast majority of encounters by using only Swipe and Maul (add in Demoralizing Roar if you need more damage mitigation). Add Mangle if you really need the slightly better mitigation or threat afforded by Mangle/IW. Really, most of the fights can be done just fine with chain-Swiping and Maul thrown in from time to time.
Also, AoE tanking is slightly different, I think I can hold aggro while AoE tanking on the vast majority of encounters by using only Swipe and Maul (add in Demoralizing Roar if you need more damage mitigation). Add Mangle if you really need the slightly better mitigation or threat afforded by Mangle/IW. Really, most of the fights can be done just fine with chain-Swiping and Maul thrown in from time to time.
Maul also applies IW. The only reason to ever use Mangle on groups is if you have single target dps that are pulling agro. Then it becomes a bit more complex to balance ability usage. However, your dps should be smart enough to avoid pulling agro on something they cannot tank. Back in Hyjal, we would just assign one tank to be the single target assist.
Being parry capped is absolutely not a must. The effects of a hasted attack are not trivial but not nearly as important, itemization wise, as more stamina or agility. Hit is even less important. The primary reason to stack expertise and hit is for threat, and that's all.
I must disagree.
I've made some calculations, and the result is that not parry caped tank takes 3.6% more damage approximately, then parry caped.
So it's very reasonable mitigation.
At this moment you don't really need to STACK expertise. You will have parry cap itemizing your bear properly, with Primal precision taken, but no additional gem's and enchants.
And when we speaking about agro, +15% flat agro increase worth it, or i miss something?
I must disagree.
I've made some calculations, and the result is that not parry caped tank takes 3.6% more damage approximately, then parry caped.
So it's very reasonable mitigation.
At this moment you don't really need to STACK expertise. You will have parry cap itemizing your bear properly, with Primal precision taken, but no additional gem's and enchants.
And when we speaking about agro, +15% flat agro increase worth it, or i miss something?
This post is not correct. You would absolutely have to stack expertise in order to reach the "parry cap", which, as far as I know, varies quite a bit from boss to boss. You would NOT have to stack expertise in order to reach the dodge cap, which is fixed at 6.5% for each boss. However, bosses dodging do not cause hasted attacks -- so reaching this cap is, indeed, for threat purposes only.
The poster who asked about whether it was worth gearing to reach the parry cap has 59 expertise. This is entirely too much. He is making great sacrifices in his own avoidance and stamina pool in order to reach the "parry cap". Furthermore, I have no idea how you calculated that a non-parry capped tank will take 3.6% more damage -- without stating your assumptions and calculations, this number is pretty worthless.
Again: expertise and hit are threat stats. More threat is always good, unless it means your avoidance and health suffer too much. Gearing for the parry cap will ALWAYS cause your HP and avoidance to suffer too much.
I must disagree.
I've made some calculations, and the result is that not parry caped tank takes 3.6% more damage approximately, then parry caped.
So it's very reasonable mitigation.
At this moment you don't really need to STACK expertise. You will have parry cap itemizing your bear properly, with Primal precision taken, but no additional gem's and enchants.
And when we speaking about agro, +15% flat agro increase worth it, or i miss something?
Well, you didn't do the math right--that's clear from the last line. 15% expertise isn't a 15% flat aggro increase, everything below the dodge cap counts double. So that doesn't inspire much confidence in the rest of your math (not to mention you handwaved out the threat loss due to giving up other itemization to get all that expertise)...but let's have a look.
Let's assume we're around the dodge cap, and in fact just to simplify things we'll pretend the dodge cap is exactly 5% and the parry cap is exactly 15%, so there's a 10% difference. My intuition tells me that we're going to come up far from your 3.6% damage, so I'm not going to sweat being precise unless I get surprised by the results. I chose those spots because it *is* pretty straightforward to get close to the dodge cap without sacrificing much, while it's not at all easy to get close to the parry cap unless you choose some DPS items that have inferior avoidance.
Tank 1 (at 5%) gets parried 10% more often than tank 2 (at 15%).
In order to get your 3.6% damage, you'd need an _average_ parryhaste of 36%. Typical parryhaste numbers are around 20%, if I recall correctly. Now consider you get to trade all that expertise you're stacking for stamina, agility, etc, and the net effect declines further. It's somewhere below 2%, I'm pretty confident--and it's 2% that isn't applicable in far too many cases--Patchwerk, Maexxna (because let's face it, the wrap is where the rubber meets the road, and you aren't getting parried then), Gothik, KT, Sartharion until very late in the fight, Malygos, Heigan (I routinely tell my DPS it's OK to stand on my head if that's where they think they'll be out of the eruption, I find Heigan to be annoying as hell to move smoothly), Grobbulus, 4HM...All of those either don't hit hard enough for you to care, or do significant damage by means that aren't subject to parry haste.
But, expertise still IS a mitigation stat, especially for spikiness. It keeps attacks from landing in the shortest possible period of time. This is a GOOD thing, and the Savage Defense change adds to it by giving you more time to get shields up between boss swings. Combining math for both of these mechanics is above my pay grade, but it should be intuitive that it provides some value.
While it doesn't become a mitigation stat on par with even dodge rating, it still has its value-- if you take it as 1/5th a point of agility, you all of a sudden can have gear worth 10-20 agi points more than Rawr will show you, which would certainly change the ranks of gear.
If anything, it's better to say "gear that's close to as good in Rawr, but also has expertise, wins." In that sense, you're not trading off anything for agi/stam/base armor.
In general, I think of expertise as a pretty good stat, because while it is not exceptional as a threat *or* mitigation stat, it provides both. As a tank or hybrid expertise (up to the parry cap) dominates hit, because it provides the same dps and some mitigation. That said, agility seems like the #1 premium stat because it is second best threat (because without savage roar,you can't reach the obscene levels of AP required for hit/exp to outpace agility for threat) *and* best pure mitigation, second best TTL.
But since you can't stack notthing but agility successfully, and are constantly looking for other stats, expertise seems like a pretty good third stat after agi and stam.
One thing I haven't seen hashed out at all on these threads is any discussion of the relative merits of TPS/DPS vs. mitigation. Obviously there is no one answer to that question. In general, some fights require max mitigation and your tps/dps is secondary, but other fights require X mitigation, and at some X+N more tps/dps becomes much more valuable than more mitigation.
I'm starting to think that for all but the toughest mitigation fights, once you get pretty far clear of the 30-30-30 requirement, more dps is really a better way to go, and third best miti stats like dodge and defense are actually inferior not just to expertise, but even to just getting more AP/str/hit.
So I'm trying to use an all-purpose set on these principles which can be converted to a mitigation set or a dps set with only a few swaps. If I'm tanking heroics or farmed fights, I pretty much tank in the all-purpose set and ignore my mitigation pieces, often ending up in the middle of the dps charts.
So far, I'm really just doing this by intuition, looking at the best mitigation pieces and the best cat dps pieces, and trying to find pieces that show up somewhere on both lists (or which are high on one and close to making the other).
I haven't really tried to model how to value the various stats in lootrank for such a set, and would be interested in the results of anybody else. One thing I'm missing is a good calculator for bear form dps or tps. Does rawr have this?
In general, I think of expertise as a pretty good stat, because while it is not exceptional as a threat *or* mitigation stat, it provides both. As a tank or hybrid expertise (up to the parry cap) dominates hit, because it provides the same dps and some mitigation. That said, agility seems like the #1 premium stat because it is second best threat (because without savage roar,you can't reach the obscene levels of AP required for hit/exp to outpace agility for threat) *and* best pure mitigation, second best TTL.
Actually, agility is the absolute worst stat for threat. I'm not sure why you bring up savage roar in relation to tanking.
It's well-known how good agility and stamina are for tanking. It's also pretty well established that expertise is the absolute best stat for threat (with hit being equal after dodge cap) and has at least some defensive value. How much you can lower defensive stats for dps/tps stats is purely a matter of personal choice and encounter mechanics.
Actually, agility is the absolute worst stat for threat. I'm not sure why you bring up savage roar in relation to tanking.
It's well-known how good agility and stamina are for tanking. It's also pretty well established that expertise is the absolute best stat for threat (with hit being equal after dodge cap) and has at least some defensive value. How much you can lower defensive stats for dps/tps stats is purely a matter of personal choice and encounter mechanics.
Hit is not equal to expertise after dodge cap.
Though the parry varies per boss most bosses have a higher parry cap then dodge cap. If the boss parries an attack he can get a buff that increases the speed at which he hits, hitting the tank more in the same period, thus a dps increase on the tank. Even after dodge cap I would choose expertise over hit any time.
However at the moment I am not that worried about threat generation. Untill that becomes a real problem I will start using expertise over agility/dodge gems for tanking.
He was referring only to the threat gained by stacking hit vs. expertise, not overall benefit. And actually, if your only goal is to maximize threat as much as possible hit overtakes expertise ever so slightly once you're past the dodge cap since it affects Faerie Fire.
Forgive my noobishness. I have two 80 druids, a tree who is my main, and a bear who is just getting into heroics in an attempt to get geared up. What does this mean?
Originally Posted by mesullivan
Once you get pretty far clear of the 30-30-30 requirement...
I'm guessing 30K health, 30K armor, but what's the other 30? It can't be %dodge - 30 seems way low, since mine's a good bit higher then that and I'm still in nearly all blues.
30% dodge is right. And it is low, but it's not nearly as low as it could be. If you were to stack stam, go for the polar and pvp gear, you'd have a bit less than that.
The 30-30-30 rule is the bare minimum for each category.
0.) Maul continuously if you have the rage for it...
1.) Mangle/IW x 2 on target and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and off cooldown), use Mangle.
2.) Lacerate at full stack count and >2-3 seconds remaining? If no (and you need the threat), then Lacerate.
3.) Demoralizing roar on target? If no (and needed). use Demoralizing Roar.
3.) Swipe
Like the vast majority of bears out there, if my target is one that lives long enough, it is going to have a 5-stack of Lacerate on it.
However, an RL friend of mine recently dinged 80 on his newly-rolled druid and was told by his guildies to go read the tanking guide that is posted on the official WoW forums. He did, and he came back with a question regarding Lacerate vs. Swipe. In the guide, the author says:
Swipe is your "AOE" attack, hitting all targets in front of you at once. If you have 3/3 Feral Instinct, the threat generated by Swipe will be greater then the threat generated by Lacerate. This means this will be your primary Threat ability when not using Mangle. However, you must be careful when using this ability around CCed mobs.
This has really got me thinking, but I haven't had the time to collect data for myself. I'm going to do some extensive testing this weekend and will update you all. I was wondering, though, if anybody can comment on the topic one way or another. If testing has been done in the past, I'd rather not spend a few hours re-inventing the wheel this weekend.
Swipe is the primary threat ability. Mangle has a cd and swipe does more threat then lacerate.
However lacerate, once up needs only to be refreshed once every 15 seconds.
So main single target agro gaining:
Mangle whenever.
Maul whenever (watch rage, maul does not give rage)
Lacerate to a stack of 5 and keep it up
Swipe swipe swipe till you can't swipe no more.
Kalon had a blog entry on it some time ago with numbers. ThinkTank
Look at the entries made on 15th and 16th of januari.
PS: with swipe and cc'd mobs you indeed need to watch it. Same goes for maul since glyph of maul hits 2 targets. I tried tanking without glyph of maul (forgot to glyph it) and I can tell you you will have that glyph in use!
But also; I can't remember the last time I saw a sheeped target. It might change with Ulduar though.
PS2: As to Demoralizing Roar. It is bad on generating threat. I seldom use it. Good to do an aoe ability for unagro'd mobs or when being attacked by packs of mobs to decrease incoming damage. On tanking packs; since you can;t hit behind you position fast and swipe/maul.
If you read all the guy's blog posts, he then states that:
The first surprise that you might have is that these numbers show that lacerate, not swipe, is the best threat. But...didn't I just say the opposite a couple weeks ago? Yep. The main reason is that that calculation assumed a 30% armor reduction, which is a bit unrealistic. 40% is closer to the mark. With that and a low-ish AP value (5k is pretty low for raiding tanks), lacerate wins out on threat. If you instead have 6k AP, swipe wins out again. So I was still right...it just means that if you're on the lower end of gear, spamming swipe for threat is not as good as lacerating.
For simplicity sake, I generally just load up a mangle+5xLacerate stack and then refresh Lacerate throughout a fight. My threat lead is generally so good after the first 30seconds or so that I can just plain ole maul spam on single target boss fights that last a long time. Maul+Swipe spam is really very, very good in both single target and AoE situations, honestly. No need to get crazy about perfecting TPS, currently.
I am currently considering this spec for 3rd tank/dps in 25 mans and maybe OT in 10 mans. My thinking is that iLotP is wasted in a 25 man enviroment and downright unwanted on Patchwerk. Master Shapeshifter is ok as a bear but will help greatly as a cat. I'm not sure about the 3 points in IW as we have a both a Warrior and DK alternating as MT, should I perhaps spend them in a more kitty oriented talent? Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.
02/06/09, 8:29 PM
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