I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't want iLotP on patchwerk, certainly it may not be needed once you out gear an instance, but free healing is always welcome. One option you may want to consider, is taking Shredding Attacks and KotJ instead of MS, the TPS in bear is nearly identical, and you gain significantly more DPS when in catform.
I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't want iLotP on patchwerk, certainly it may not be needed once you out gear an instance, but free healing is always welcome. One option you may want to consider, is taking Shredding Attacks and KotJ instead of MS, the TPS in bear is nearly identical, and you gain significantly more DPS when in catform.
We usually run with the DPS intentionally running into the slime to always stay at about 50% health so them getting heals isn't what we want at the moment. But I do see a certain logic to your suggestions. Is IW a must have? Got [Origin of Nightmares] last night so it looks like I can respec any day now...
Infected wound is a must have if you have no other slowing effect. IE no prot warrior or DK that's spec'd for it. I'd think it would be a dps lose to have a Fury/Arms warrior keep up TC through a fight. Plus there are enough fights where you don't want or can't have someone running across the room to keep the slow up. So you might has well always pack one for yourself.
We usually run with the DPS intentionally running into the slime to always stay at about 50% health so them getting heals isn't what we want at the moment. But I do see a certain logic to your suggestions. Is IW a must have? Got [Origin of Nightmares] last night so it looks like I can respec any day now...
Infected Wound isn't necessary if the mob(s) you're tanking has either
1.Tanking Warrior putting up TC (DPS warrior loss a lot by using TC)
2.A Death Knight with 3/3 Improved Icy Touch
In current raiding environment, since there isn't a fight where there are a lot of movement and separation, you can probably get away with not having IW, especially with how popular 32/39 DW Death Knights has been. However, the most important thing is that you look at the raid and make sure you have the appropriate debuffer.
As for Patchwerk, as long as your DPS are not stupid and attack before at least the first Hateful Strike soaker gets hit (aka not dodge/miss/parry), they don't need to dip in the slime.
With all that said, if you want to be a self-sufficient tank as well as maximizing your tanking talents, ILoTP and IW are both solid candidates. If you find yourself filling a more offtanking role for 2 fights and doing dps a lot, then you can easily drop IW and pick up Predatory Instincts for improved crit damage and AoE avoidance in cat, and drop ILoTP for Shredding Attack to significantly increase your damage output as cat.
Infected Wound isn't necessary if the mob(s) you're tanking has either
1.Tanking Warrior putting up TC (DPS warrior loss a lot by using TC)
2.A Death Knight with 3/3 Improved Icy Touch
In current raiding environment, since there isn't a fight where there are a lot of movement and separation, you can probably get away with not having IW, especially with how popular 32/39 DW Death Knights has been. However, the most important thing is that you look at the raid and make sure you have the appropriate debuffer.
As for Patchwerk, as long as your DPS are not stupid and attack before at least the first Hateful Strike soaker gets hit (aka not dodge/miss/parry), they don't need to dip in the slime.
With all that said, if you want to be a self-sufficient tank as well as maximizing your tanking talents, ILoTP and IW are both solid candidates. If you find yourself filling a more offtanking role for 2 fights and doing dps a lot, then you can easily drop IW and pick up Predatory Instincts for improved crit damage and AoE avoidance in cat, and drop ILoTP for Shredding Attack to significantly increase your damage output as cat.
We currently have a Prot War as MT and a Frost DK as OT so I'm mostly going to DPS as it looks now, so I'm probably going to follow your last suggestions. Thanks.
In current raiding environment, since there isn't a fight where there are a lot of movement and separation, you can probably get away with not having IW, especially with how popular 32/39 DW Death Knights has been. However, the most important thing is that you look at the raid and make sure you have the appropriate debuffer.
The one exception - and it's a large one - is if you're planning on tanking Sartharion3D. If that's the case, you won't have a debuffer unless you do something very odd, in which case having IW is a good thing.
I am the offtank in our Naxx runs, but spend the majority of my time DPS'ing. The only time I throw on my tanking gear is for patchwerk... everything else is done in DPS gear. What I really like about this spec is the versatility and survivability it gives me as a cat. While I'm missing the primary tanking talents, current content doesn't require them. While in cat form, I take 30% less AoE damage, 20% increased healing, and I can pop barkskin or survival instincts if I need.
Typically I'm top 3 for overall DPS, and I'll hover around 5-7th on most boss fights, pushing up to top 3 on some. This even includes fights where I'm required to tank for a portion of the fight (Thaddius, Gluth, Noth).
This will probably continue to be my spec going into Ulduar, with a dual spec setup that maximizes my mitigation and survivability in bear form for any fights that really need that.
We usually run with the DPS intentionally running into the slime to always stay at about 50% health so them getting heals isn't what we want at the moment.
I'm sorry but this is unforgivable at this stage of the game. If this is indeed the case, it seems you (and your guild) still don't understand how Hateful Strike works after all this time (and two iterations of Naxxramas). Using this as a reason not to get ILOTP is even more ridiculous.
The one exception - and it's a large one - is if you're planning on tanking Sartharion3D. If that's the case, you won't have a debuffer unless you do something very odd, in which case having IW is a good thing.
Hmm, I thought the same thing when we first did sarth 3D. But now that Sarth goes completely immune when Shadron's acolyte is summoned I don't really bother with Infected Wounds. Im just standing there not attacking, casting demo roar periodically and dodging fire. Once Shadron's acolyte is down and you are able to attack Sarth again, the hard part of the fight is already over - so I don't really mind that I'm taking a little bit more damage.
Having said that, Infected Wounds is a nice talent if you tank a lot of bosses. Personally I usually dps and occasionally offtank, having 2 prot warriors and a DK in my 25 mans.
You can refresh IW by hitting mangle. It does no damage but does put the IW debuff on. It's very nice for dealing with big breaths + melee attacks and in general making things nicer for your healers.
Hello there, as i saw some tanking rotations were posted on this thread i would like to add a question i was hoping to see answered here.
I read sometime ago that using FFF on CD would be a boost in TPS if your threat was below a certain value. My question is basically what is that value? How much TPS do you need to pull to neglect the need to FFF on CD. I'm pretty sure i read this on EJ forums and the value was 5.5k or something but then again, with no source i can't really confirm it. If you can supply the mathematical explanation with an answer that would be great.
You can refresh IW by hitting mangle. It does no damage but does put the IW debuff on. It's very nice for dealing with big breaths + melee attacks and in general making things nicer for your healers.
Hmm, I would be hesitant to try doing this while twilight torment is up, you might be taking more damage than you save.
Hello there, as i saw some tanking rotations were posted on this thread i would like to add a question i was hoping to see answered here.
I read sometime ago that using FFF on CD would be a boost in TPS if your threat was below a certain value. My question is basically what is that value? How much TPS do you need to pull to neglect the need to FFF on CD. I'm pretty sure i read this on EJ forums and the value was 5.5k or something but then again, with no source i can't really confirm it. If you can supply the mathematical explanation with an answer that would be great.
EDIT: Grammar.
Very interesting remark. I think you base this on missing out 1 swipe (minus threat) and replacing that every 30 seconds with FFF reducing armor, thus hitting harder, thus more threat.
I wonder if it can be answered because different bosses have different armor values I assume. I also wonder if armor on bosses scales the same, Diminished Returns, as on us (1k armor at 20k armor does less reduction then 1k armor at 10k armor). I assume it is, which makes FFF really hard to calculate.
I think the question has to be rephrased as follows:
"What is the formula for x armor on a boss to calculate the tipping point in AP you need to make FFF give more threat then a swipe"
Or am I wrong?
You can refresh IW by hitting mangle. It does no damage but does put the IW debuff on. It's very nice for dealing with big breaths + melee attacks and in general making things nicer for your healers.
I have only had to tank him once and I respecced specifically for the fight picking up IW. I wasn't able to keep it up when he went immune at all, if there is a next time I won't worry about picking the talent up as the DK's attack speed slow was going up while he was immune anyway.
I guess it will come down to where your raid tanks the different mobs and if your DK is in range and the right spec.
Originally Posted by Monedula
Very interesting remark. I think you base this on missing out 1 swipe (minus threat) and replacing that every 30 seconds with FFF reducing armor, thus hitting harder, thus more threat.
I wonder if it can be answered because different bosses have different armor values I assume. I also wonder if armor on bosses scales the same, Diminished Returns, as on us (1k armor at 20k armor does less reduction then 1k armor at 10k armor). I assume it is, which makes FFF really hard to calculate.
I think the question has to be rephrased as follows:
"What is the formula for x armor on a boss to calculate the tipping point in AP you need to make FFF give more threat then a swipe"
Or am I wrong?
You're wrong.
It is assumed that both major and minor armor reductions are up when looking at threat calculations. If you look back at the early tests of FFF threat it was always worth using it every cool down for threat. I am not sure if this still holds true or not.
Due to the silly interaction between FFF and Misery or IFF from a moonkin I haven't tried using it outside of heroics depending on raid makeup for tens. That is certainly one bug I would like to see fixed.
Very interesting remark. I think you base this on missing out 1 swipe (minus threat) and replacing that every 30 seconds with FFF reducing armor, thus hitting harder, thus more threat.
I wonder if it can be answered because different bosses have different armor values I assume. I also wonder if armor on bosses scales the same, Diminished Returns, as on us (1k armor at 20k armor does less reduction then 1k armor at 10k armor). I assume it is, which makes FFF really hard to calculate.
I think the question has to be rephrased as follows:
"What is the formula for x armor on a boss to calculate the tipping point in AP you need to make FFF give more threat then a swipe"
Or am I wrong?
No no Monedula. what i asked was exactly what Cluey said. Using FFF as a threat ability itself and not only because of the threat-related debuff it gives. As said and well said Cluey, i must agree that Misery / IFF can be a pain as it overwrites FFF. If it turns out that the threat we are doing/can do is higher than what it would be with FFF then the so called bug you want to be fixed wouldn't be needed. That's the little dilemma that i'm throwing here...
I wonder if it can be answered because different bosses have different armor values I assume. I also wonder if armor on bosses scales the same, Diminished Returns, as on us (1k armor at 20k armor does less reduction then 1k armor at 10k armor). I assume it is, which makes FFF really hard to calculate.
In that case the changes to FFF (5% reduction instead of 1260 armor) will not effect it at all.
This change seems to be a PVP change to not cut clothies armor in half (or something like that I don;t know ho w much armor cloth wearers have these days).
If this is not a PvE change can we conclude from this that at the moment boss armor is 20 times 1260 armor (100%) = 25200 armor?
In that case the changes to FFF (5% reduction instead of 1260 armor) will not effect it at all.
This change seems to be a PVP change to not cut clothies armor in half (or something like that I don;t know ho w much armor cloth wearers have these days).
If this is not a PvE change can we conclude from this that at the moment boss armor is 20 times 1260 armor (100%) = 25200 armor?
No, we can't. First, all DR calculations based on armor values would have been extremely off, and second, it wouldn't make sense to have a blue say "armor values will be nerfed to get the same effect as on live" when it already fitted the forumla without change.
My druid alt has 32k hp, 32k ac, 35% dodge with a 58/13 bear build
I found heroics and 10 men are quite easy to tank, but lacking in dps while not tanking.
So will this 0/53/18 be a better all-around feral spec? I gave up Thick Hide as 4% ac per point seems lacking, picked up shredding attacks to boost dps, but left KotJ for the rather long cd. Picked up Master Shapeshifter while keep imp MotW. But I really miss Infected Wounds in both PvE and occasional PvP. Any comment? Thanks.
Hauraki - there's no need to take 5/5 Furor in a tanking or DPS build.
If you're going to be doing any kind of tanking, thick hide is hugely important. 10% more armor after all the other multipliers comes out to 80% more overall armor, or about 3-4k more overall armor depending on your gear level. That is a huge amount of mitigation that you're giving up. I would drop improved mangle first; you won't need the threat boost with master shapeshifter, and it does not significantly improve cat DPS.
Not having Thick hide, KoTJ, IW, or PI is really unwise. Obviously you can't have all of them, but taking 5/5 furor or 3/3 imp mangle over some of them are not reasonable. You only need 4/5 Furor in a reasonble setting, and 3/3 Imp mangle is not that big of a threat increase.
If you want a viable dps spec which you can also tank with, I would not take imp motw (in it's current form, obviously come 3.1 that changes) or master shapeshifter (essentially 5 talent points for 4% crit).
There is really no logical reason not to take thick hide for any tanking spec, unless you are overgeared for the content (in which case you can probably offtank as a full dps spec anyway).
You get basically every dps talent except MS, I dont believe Infected Wounds is essential for a hybrid spec as a lot of the time other classes can supply the same debuff anyway, imp LotP is nice to have but again for an offtanking spec I wouldn't worry too much about not having it.
Aldhissla has the right of it. We can almost completely max out any two of the three facets of our tree: tanking, DPS, or utility. The spec she linked has 100% of the bear survivability, and nearly 100% of the cat DPS (and bear threat) talents, requiring only that the utility portion be handled by other classes in the group - a small price to pay for a raid member who can use both their bear and cats forms effectively even inside the same boss fight. That build (with two points moved from Improved Mangle into Improved LotP, personal preference) has taken me through tanking and DPSing progression-difficulty fights against every non-achievement boss fight from Sartharion-0D through Malygos.
02/22/09, 8:16 PM
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