Cat DPS Rotation - Page 10

triman · 12/13/08, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

From my character sheet. 1013 is my weapon damage at that AP level. It's the topmost listed stat under Melee in the Character Sheet.

Ok...that is where the disconnect is occuring. That field is only for +wpn dmg items (such as the old weightstone).

The Druid Wiki ToskksDPSGearMethod discussion Weapon damage box on the calculator

Rerunning with your numbers but putting '0' in for weapon damage I get:

Str:AP = 2.332
Agi:AP = 2.1453
Crit Rating:AP = 1.5244
Hit Rating:AP = 1.8334
Weapon Dmg:AP = 5.7261
Expertise Rating:AP = 0
Haste Rating:AP = 1.5937
Armor Pen Rating:AP = 1.7996

Dyvozvir · 12/13/08, 6:24 AM

Seems only 1 factor makes str> hit, and it's tier7 2 items setbonus, just try graph without it and it will be good.

Windchilla · 12/13/08, 12:15 PM

There seems to be a pretty massive disconnect between the calculator and the charts below it then. Not only for the hit/str comparison but also the agi/str comparison.

triman · 12/13/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

There seems to be a pretty massive disconnect between the calculator and the charts below it then. Not only for the hit/str comparison but also the agi/str comparison.

Yes. That is still confusing. Think we need some clarification from Toskk.

monstor · 12/13/08, 10:20 PM

Hello, I've been trying to make a macro for shred/rake so if I were to hit the macro where I would rake first and keep the shred rotation going. If my rake falls of, re-apply rake and contiue to shred. Would it be possible?

orangefoodie · 12/14/08, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by monstor

Hello, I've been trying to make a macro for shred/rake so if I were to hit the macro where I would rake first and keep the shred rotation going. If my rake falls of, re-apply rake and contiue to shred. Would it be possible?

Short answer: no.

Korhaug · 12/14/08, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by monstor

Hello, I've been trying to make a macro for shred/rake so if I were to hit the macro where I would rake first and keep the shred rotation going. If my rake falls of, re-apply rake and contiue to shred. Would it be possible?

A bit longer answer: no, because macros are not capable of discerning what debuffs affect your target.

Baggles · 12/15/08, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Wintermane

Originally Posted by Scurn

I think the main disconnect is between what people see when they play the game and what the calculations are telling them. Taking Toskk's calculator and selecting every dps talent and every dps increasing checkbox, 11000ap, 50% crit, 0 hit and 0 expertise still gives strength as the superior stat, 2.332 for strength versus 1.9142 for hit. But I doubt you could tell me with a straight face that missing 8% + 6.25% of your attacks from ignoring both hit and expertise and gemming/enchanting entirely for strength is a small variation in your dps.

Yes, I think I could tell you that with a straight face. From what I'm hearing there seems to be some panic that one of our buffs/debuffs will be delayed by a GCD because of a missed attack, and while I understand that any miss is going to hurt DPS, if you simply expect to miss 8% of the time, knowing that debuff downtime associated with those missed attacks will be more than made up for by the increased damage on the attacks that hit, I don't understand what the panic is about. Anecdotally, (and I understand that all of our anecdotes are a weak substitute for math that still hasn't been shown to refute Toskk's model) I have completely ignored hit rating on all gems and enchants and find maintaining the cycle no problem. Again, I'm not arguing that all cats should re-gem, I'm only suggesting that what is taken as a given by many of us (capping hit) may in fact simply be person preference.

Edit: Perhaps the given should be: "If you're having trouble maintaining your cycles effectively, regemming to increase your hit will likely make cycle maintenance easier"? Also as a side note, the arguements have been that 14.25% of missed attacks adds unacceptable variability, but it should be pointed out that at a high gear level you'll likely be expertise capped without gems/enchants, and probably have a substantial amount of hit, so what we're probably talking about is > 4% hit? Perhaps 5%?

Although I know it's been beaten to death, I'd like to keep this debate alive. I will also say that I'm really not normally one for mathcraft, but this topic has me too curious not to try (please feel free to correct me on anything). There are a couple factors of note... first of all, am I correct in assuming that there is one roll for white hits? And therefore, increasing your hit rating does not increase the amount of crits you get, because the roll is either a miss, a hit, or a crit.

For the sake of argument, let's ignore the loss to yellow damage due to misses, as the energy loss is somewhat minimal. This could be theorycrafted about, but right now I wouldn't want to wager a guess at a figure for that dps loss, and I am of the belief based on personal experience that it is low.

Now, let's say your white *HITS* are for, say 700 (basing this off of this wws report). So out of every 100 swings, 1% hit, or 32.79 hit rating, will net you 700 damage, even under ideal circumstances/raid buffs. Heroism aside, even at, say, .9 attack speed (which is more than the vast majority of druids) that is roughly 7.8 dps (700 damage, divided by 90 seconds) for each 33 hit rating.

With that established to some theoretical degree, the hard part is obviously the comparison. Strength is the obvious contender. First of all, it applies to 100% of our damage, with every finisher, and every special benefiting significantly from str/AP. It then receives 10% from HOTW, 40% from SR, and 10% from kings, although to be honest I am not sure the exact math for the application of all three modifiers. Item level seems to equate strength to hit rating on a 1:1 ratio, based on gems. So the question is, does 33 strength equal 7.8 dps?

The math here is pretty complicated because you begin to assume what the rotation looks like, how each attack benefits and how many are included in a full cycle, but even at this rudimentary of an analysis, I'm swayed in favor of strength. It absolutely means a more hectic cycle and it's a lot of timer watching, but I'm voting strength over hit unless there is some very bizarre and pronounced stat imbalance.

Pzychotix · 12/15/08, 3:58 AM

Originally Posted by Korhaug

A bit longer answer: no, because macros are not capable of discerning what debuffs affect your target.

Well, I assume that a long cast sequence macro could work.

/castsequence reset=9 Rake, Shred, Shred, Shred, Shred, Shred, Shred

Then again:
1) I have little experience using castsequence macros.
2) It has the extreme limitation that it would only work correctly on one target.

DeadDream · 12/15/08, 6:20 AM

Im probbably missing something (im very new to druid class, leveled one with the wotlk arrival), but ToskksDPS calculator isn't calculation dps right. I'm comparing it to my dps on Heroic Training Dummy. Self buffed with mark only and applying FFF to target.

Im using this build - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
with input stats:
AP - 6086
crit% - 36.22
hit rating - 186
weapon damage - 550
expertise rating - 79
haste rating - 71
armor penetration rating - 92

im taking into account glyph of rip (no mangle glyph), using Shred for CP, 5cp Savage Roar and 5cp Rip, trying to keep mangle and rake uptime as max as possible. Also, no berserk. If both SR and Rip are gone, im using CPs to refresh SR firsrt (even if it's only 2+ cp).

Calculator gives me 2802 DPS, while actual DPS on Heroic Training Dummy is somewhere around 2050. I

What am i doing wrong?

Erusdruidum · 12/15/08, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by DeadDream

weapon damage - 550

What am i doing wrong?

As someone pointed out above, the weapon damage field is for listing things that add directly to weapon damage (e.g. weighstones, the BC ring enchant, etc.), not the white damage number listed in your character sheet.

BeldDD · 12/15/08, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

Triman, did you fill every field, including weapon damage and talents?

If you don't fill all categories you deny information to the calc and will get skewed results.

I used the following numbers, simply taken from my character sheet with Savage Roar up:

AP: 12000
Crit: 49%
Hit: 170
WepDmg: 1013
Exp rating: 139
Haste: 166
Armor Pen: 100

I then checked the appropriate buff boxes (the calc is not designed for savage roar, but for your stats while raidbuffed, consequently these are similar to my raidbuff stats without SR up so I'm leaving the values as is and selecting all raid buffs.)

Selected all relevant talents.

Hit Rating: AP - 3.128
Str: AP - 2.332
Agi: AP - 2.676

Under the Gems catagory it lists:
16 hit - 50 kitty points
16 agi - 42.82
16 str - 37.31

For what it's worth, Toskk has pointed out that the AP number you should be inputting is raid buffed pre Savage Roar (so 9k not 12k) as his dps model accounts for savage roar.

BeldDD · 12/15/08, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dyvozvir

Seems only 1 factor makes str> hit, and it's tier7 2 items setbonus, just try graph without it and it will be good.

That's definitely not true. I have to assume it depends on where you are in the hit rating realm. You'll note my rating is particularly low below and my other stats are more significant. Of course the below AP is about where I am at post savage roar and so wouldn't really be accurate.

Attack Power: 11000
Crit %: 40
Hit Rating: 124
Weapon Dmg:
Expertise Rating: 75
Haste Rating: 259
Armor Penetration Rating: 13

Str:AP = 2.244
Agi:AP = 2.2928
Crit Rating:AP = 1.8941
Hit Rating:AP = 2.5339

DeadDream · 12/15/08, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Erusdruidum

As someone pointed out above, the weapon damage field is for listing things that add directly to weapon damage (e.g. weighstones, the BC ring enchant, etc.), not the white damage number listed in your character sheet.

You're right, im pointless =( Now it's pretty correct. Im doing even slightly more than calculator shows.
Good thing - i'm doing everything right. Bad thing - my gear must suck bigtime =(

coldbear · 12/15/08, 2:18 PM

I keep seeing people in this thread ask about keeping track of Savage Roar and debuff uptimes, so here's a repost of a somewhat complex way of doing that, plus keep track of your cooldowns - all using one single addon.

If you're suffering from addon overload, this might be for you. If you like keeping track of and updating multiple different addons, this is not for you. This might very well not even be the least resource-consuming way of doing it, but having Savage Roar and all your meaningful debuffs under one single anchor right next to your cooldowns in the middle of the screen is unbeatable imo.

DoTimer - Great addon. Massive learning curve, not unlike the Discord UI project back in the day. Took me two weeks to figure this out:

Download and install DoTimer from WoWInterface or Curse.
Open up game menu - 'Interface' - 'AddOns' - expand 'DoTimer'

Uncheck 'Simple Mode'
Select 'DoTimer' in the submenu of 'DoTimer'
Select 'Anchor to Customize:' DoTimer Anchor
Checked 'Default Anchor' (unsure about this step)
"Move these timers here": type in Savage Roar and hit enter
Check 'For Below Timers' (unsure about this step)
Check 'Preserve Tar. Data' (unsure about this step)

If it doesn't work you may have the Max Num Groups for the DoTimer Anchor set to 1, or you may have Savage Roar previously manually moved to a different anchor. PlayerAuras must also apparently be Enabled. I ended up dragging the rest of the PlayerAuras offscreen since I like the way Blizzard organizes buffs (if not their position), and haven't figured out how to make a fool-proof and nice-looking change to it. The less change to the UI the better, all other things being equal.

Expand the 'DoTimer Anchors' menu
Select 'DoTimer Anchor'
Set Max Num Groups to 0 (which is - or should be - the default value iirc, I had it changed since I'm only interested in my current target debuffs and Savage Roar).

Now just block all the target debuffs you're not interested in, and set up your cooldowns to however you prefer them displayed - I personally went with icons (+size from default) and a numeric countdown. Move the anchors to somewhere central and you're good to go. The debuffs and cooldowns should be a lot easier to figure out, and work fairly well out of the box.

There is another guide for how to do the exact same thing with DoTimer on Emmerald's forum, and the above is also posted in the WoWInterface DoTimer comments thread. Please let me know if there's a simpler way to get DoTimer to comply with our requirements.