Cat DPS Rotation - Page 11

Holyhawk · 01/06/09, 8:24 AM

Idol of Worship is broken

? ... edit/ tested it in og... my rip ticks with 1011 (without sr, mangle or trinketprocs) ... and with idol of worship it ticks with 1011 too

damn !

Can anyone give me WWS links where i can find pure DPS Cats? I just want to know what DPS on (for example) Patchwerk is good. My best DPS was at 4,7k but im not satisfied with 4,7k

.
I dont have my final equip but its not bad either.

Melthu · 01/06/09, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Lumivar

Hahaha don't get me wrong Killets, I i've been Feral since I stopped healing on Nefarion. I love the spec to bits. I don't play any other class and have been playing WoW on and off since closed Beta.

I just see your example for instance 3-4k DPS and I can't understand how im doing so badly, my gears not shite, im executing the widely accepted dps rotations reasonably efficiently and I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how to play a Druid but consistantly ranking in the bottom of the DPS tables is making me scratch my head in consternation.

Here is the wws report for last nights 25man, I was OT for most of it and only DPS'd on Loetheb, Thaddius and Sapphiron. If anyone can point out something glaringly stupid i've been doing I would greatly appreciate it.

Wow Web Stats

To expand on what killets posted, you did a poor job of keeping Mangle up as well. You were the only person in the raid with a bleed damage debuff and kept it up for 122 seconds in a 228 second fight (I'm talking about Loatheb), giving you 53.5% uptime. Mangle is a 30% damage increase to every yellow attack we have other than Ferocious Bite and refreshing Mangle. 100% Mangle uptime alone would have been worth about 47k more damage done.

As killets pointed out your Rip uptime was poor (126 seconds, 55.3%). Your Rake uptime was no better at 123 seconds for 53.9% uptime. You were better about Savage Roar, but it was still only up for 162 seconds for 71.1% uptime. Mangle, Savage Roar, and Rake should all be above 90% uptime.

Assuming that you had 2/2 Shredding Attacks, 3/3 Improved Mangle with no T6 bonus, 2/2 Primal Precision, and averaged spending 40 energy per Ferocious Bite you spent a total of 2310.9 energy in the fight. You had 2680 to work with, including the 100 you start with plus 300 from Tiger's Fury and 2280 regenerated naturally. You had enough left over energy for at least 8 more shreds, which if they all crit would have been about 43,176 more damage. You also only used 1 Berserk when you had time for 2, and as pointed out you had time for 7 Tiger's Furies but only used 5. Do everything you can to not let your energy cap out.

I don't mean to come down too hard, but the reason you aren't getting the numbers that other druids are is that you aren't doing a good job of running your rotation. Tighten up your rotation and you'll see a massive improvement in dps, much more than gear upgrades will offer you. If you aren't using one now get your hands on an addon that will track the various buffs and debuffs for you; there have been a number of options mentioned elsewhere in this thread. You should also practice on the target dummies.

Edit: I just looked at your armory and noticed that you don't have Primal Precision, Improved Mangle, or Predatory Instincts. From a dps perspective missing out on Primal Precision and Improved Mangle isn't a huge deal since you missed almost 0 attacks anyway and you aren't spamming Mangle. Predatory Instincts, however, is a pretty significant loss, especially against Loatheb when 85%+ of your attacks crit. I'm not saying that you need to pick it up since you need to remain a viable off-tank as well, but it is a significant source of damage on that fight that you were missing.

Lumivar · 01/06/09, 3:51 PM

Maybe im just getting to old for this hahaha. I was playing with the dolly this morning. Endeavouring to keep Rip, Rake, Mangle, Savage Fury up at all times, burning Tigers Fury when my energy is low, using Shred when i have spare energy and Berserking at the beginning at Berserking again 3mins in.

Did a 4 minute fight still having trouble pushing 2200DPS. Im feeling like a classic downie, especialy since this is a stick standing still not doing anything.

I was curious about another thing, my mouse over white damage is approx 600-700Main Hand, 630DPS approx. Where as my actualy hits according to combat log will be lucky to push 350. w/ Faery Fire up, is this just mitigation on the bosses behalf ?

Ill do another one tonight and post my Recount results.

(Ill have to get another Shred idol aswell, I DE'd it when I got the Worship one stupidly)

Lumivar · 01/06/09, 4:57 PM

This is a 4m:10s Fight I did on my Laptop against the Heroic Dummy.

2029 DPS for a Total of 557k Damage (I did it again to reduce the idiot factor making sure I had MotW on and keep Faery Fire up haha and averaged 2200DPS Solid) So I guess little things help alot. Theres just so many little things for druids to remember :/

There is still room for tightning up my rotation im sure but to be competitive in a raid enviroment shouldnt I be pulling 2500 atleast with room to improce up to 3k. Not this huge 1000dps disparity. It just seems unless I really am atrociously bad at Cat DPS.

Maybe im expecting too much, comparing to Seeds DPS. Where he is specced as Cat, im specced as a Tank. His gear is a bit better and gemmed/enchanted for Cat in all places where as only some in mine at this point as im erring on the side of tank priority. Is a 800DPS difference actualy not that unexpected ?

greenriche · 01/06/09, 5:07 PM

I'm looking for a little help with analyzing WWS data.

How does one track Savage Roar uptime? What I'm looking for is an "x seconds out of y" for the fight type info. What I'm seeing now is only the initial application and reapplications of the buff. The way I'm interpreting it, ideally, you want to see exactly 1 application per boss encounter. Melthu, you listed actual seconds of uptime. Where is this located?

Also, I was able to figure out dot uptime by counting ticks, but Melthu, where does one find total uptime for mangle?

Melthu · 01/06/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by greenriche

I'm looking for a little help with analyzing WWS data.

How does one track Savage Roar uptime? What I'm looking for is an "x seconds out of y" for the fight type info. What I'm seeing now is only the initial application and reapplications of the buff. The way I'm interpreting it, ideally, you want to see exactly 1 application per boss encounter. Melthu, you listed actual seconds of uptime. Where is this located?

Also, I was able to figure out dot uptime by counting ticks, but Melthu, where does one find total uptime for mangle?

Unfortunately there is no easy way to check Mangle or Savage Roar uptime, you have to dig into the combat log. For Mangle use the filter "source=greenriche and spell=mangle" to show only mangles. Then you go through the filtered log and manually add up the uptime on all of the mangles that you see. For example, let's say you see this:

10:00:00 greenriche Mangle - Cat hits Patchwerk for xxxx
10:00:00 Patchwerk is affected by Mangle - Cat
10:00:10 greenriche Mangle - Cat hits Patchwerk for xxxx
10:00:10 Patchwerk's Mangle - Cat is refreshed
10:00:30 greenriche Mangle - Cat hits Patchwerk for xxxx
10:00:30 Patchwerk is affected by Mangle-Cat

Let's assume that you don't have the Mangle glyph and that the fight lasted exactly 1 minute, going from 10:00:00 to 10:01:00. You can see that the first Mangle hits immediately as the fight starts, and that it is refreshed 10 seconds later. You can also see that it was not refreshed again, so 12 seconds after the last refresh Mangle fell off, meaning there was no Mangle on the mob from 10:00:22 until 10:00:30. You then put Mangle back up for another 12 seconds, after which Mangle was not reapplied, so it lasted from 10:00:30 to 10:00:42. You can then determine that you had 22 + 12 = 34 seconds of Mangle uptime out of a 60 second fight. Note that you can work backwards and determine downtime as well, which is actually what I prefer to do.

Savage Roar is trickier since it has variable duration. You need to filter for every special ability that we use: "source=greenriche and (spell=mangle or spell=rake or spell=shred or spell=rip or spell=ferocious or spell=savage)". Then you need to go through and determine the duration of each Savage Roar by counting the number of combo point generating moves used since your last finisher (remembering to count crits twice) and then do the same thing I showed you for Mangle.

@Lumivar

Your numbers look better, but could still use some work. I have no way of calculating Savage Roar uptime from Recount, you need to track that yourself or use WWS. Rip uptime is better at 78.4% but could probably still be improved, especially since you didn't use any Ferocious Bites. I can't tell Mangle uptime, but 25 is about right for that length of fight as long as you were refreshing it as late as possible.

You clipped your Rakes. 28 Rakes is enough for 84 dot ticks, but you only got 60. I know Rake uptime is important, but unlike Mangle and Savage Roar you want to let it run out before you reapply it (same for Rip). Unfortunately, even with clipping you only managed 72% uptime on it. I would suggest 2 things: practice and a timer tracking addon. Rogue Power Bars is my favorite, but there are many choices out there.

Note that your target dummy dps is going to be much lower than it is in raids thanks to all of the various buffs and debuffs floating around. I honestly don't know what a good benchmark is for target dummy dps, but don't compare yourself to 4000+ dps Patchwerk parses, it's not a fair comparison.

Mijae · 01/06/09, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lumivar

Maybe im expecting too much, comparing to Seeds DPS. Where he is specced as Cat, im specced as a Tank. His gear is a bit better and gemmed/enchanted for Cat in all places where as only some in mine at this point as im erring on the side of tank priority. Is a 800DPS difference actualy not that unexpected ?

With your current gear, your max should be around 2750 dps self-buffed only on a dummy. I'd say you really shouldn't be getting under 2500. If you were to simply enchant your helm, shoulders, and weapon you'ld gain 60-80 dps. A non-broken idol like [Idol of the Ravenous Beast] would push it up another 50-60. Moving 3 points from FA (really not necessary imo) to PI would gain you another 100-200 dps. I use that build, but also move 2 points from FI to PP.

Your current setup max is about 4.4k with full buffs, those few easy changes pushes it over 4.7k. So you really should be at least getting 4k on a tank-and-spank fight. Of course, if you don't have full buffs or are missing either of the dps glyphs it will go down.

If you're still struggling, I'd really suggest switching to a Mangle spam build. It greatly simplifies the cycle. It's even worth it to go back and farm the T6 in pugs. The helm/wrists combo would be biggest upgrade for you. Of course, you'ld want a different idol as well (until they fix IoW).

Kahcheeta · 01/07/09, 5:51 AM

A very neat lightweight addon is Catfight that calculates your uptimes/overlap% for Rip/Rake/Mangle/SR. They get outputted in your Chat window upon exiting combat.

CatFight - Addons - Curse

Boevis · 01/07/09, 11:01 AM

My only real issue with catfight is that there's no enable/disable option so it tends to spam your chat quite a lot if, like me, you enjoy kitty leap - shred on critters.

charriu · 01/07/09, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

My only real issue with catfight is that there's no enable/disable option so it tends to spam your chat quite a lot if, like me, you enjoy kitty leap - shred on critters.

I kinda solved that problem for me by disabling output in the code, when combat time < 40s. It still reports data for fights where you tanked the whole thing, but... well. I guess I could disable output if SR uptime is < 20% or something.

Lumivar · 01/07/09, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

With your current gear, your max should be around 2750 dps self-buffed only on a dummy. I'd say you really shouldn't be getting under 2500. If you were to simply enchant your helm, shoulders, and weapon you'ld gain 60-80 dps. A non-broken idol like [Idol of the Ravenous Beast] would push it up another 50-60. Moving 3 points from FA (really not necessary imo) to PI would gain you another 100-200 dps. I use that build, but also move 2 points from FI to PP.

Your current setup max is about 4.4k with full buffs, those few easy changes pushes it over 4.7k. So you really should be at least getting 4k on a tank-and-spank fight. Of course, if you don't have full buffs or are missing either of the dps glyphs it will go down.

If you're still struggling, I'd really suggest switching to a Mangle spam build. It greatly simplifies the cycle. It's even worth it to go back and farm the T6 in pugs. The helm/wrists combo would be biggest upgrade for you. Of course, you'ld want a different idol as well (until they fix IoW).

http://wowwebstats.com/vzqbbztut1pwy

My DPS radicaly improved last night in Naxx, definitely still room for tightning. Im just holding off on enchants until next patch when prices are slashed everything must go fire sale matts are decreased radically on most enchants. Also I only got the helm, weapon, shoulders on sunday.

In regards to the talents, I quite like having FA. You can visibly see the dmg reduction you get from DR and as primarily a tank thats what im after. FI on the other hand, that was me trying to offset Druids no gimped AoE tanking. I havent noticed some amazing Improvement over getting it so i'lll probably drop it. The only time swipe seems to be of any use is on mobs no one else has picked up. If there is any other tank hits a mob swipe just doesnt have an effect so just becomes a DPS tool. Swipe will just never out tank a Warrior AoE tanking, forget about a DK or Pally its not even funny. So i'll loose that.

greenriche · 01/07/09, 3:13 PM

Charriu, if it's simple, can you post your changes to the code, or maybe even the whole .lua file?

Rhashish · 01/07/09, 3:45 PM

I'll preface this by saying that I am not the best kitty DPS'er in the world. I usually tank, but my guild is overflowing with Prot Pallies, so having a real damage dealing OT for fights like Loatheb has made me recently start tightening up my rotation. To that extent, I tried to examine how I was tracking my buffs and debuffs.

I hated having to watch timers. With 5 timer bars and TF/berserk/tirinket CDs to watch, there wasn't enough notification when things were off CD or needed to be refreshed. I was putting out about 1700 DPS on the dummy.

To help me with that, I've switched to Power Auras.

Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

I have it set to show only when things are not active. When rake needs to be refreshed, a red Slash appears across the center of my screen. When SR goes down, an orange-ish dot. Rip, a larger red slash. OoC procs, a white circle (I was wasting procs on whatever move needed to be refreshed, instead of shredding). Mangle, a big paw (I was letting this fall off way too often). I don't need to know how long Rake, Mangle, SR, or TF cooldown have left, I just want to know when they need to be refreshed.

One of the best things it helped me to do was use TF on CD. When TF is a usable action, I have a giant bright yellow ring around my character.

Setting it up takes a while, as you have to identify every debuff, buff, and usable action you want to track, but it's completely worth the effort. I saw an almost 400 DPS increase after practicing with this setup, and have seen 15-30% uptime increases on Rake and Mangle. You'll see less if you were already better at keeping stuff like Mangle up or using TF every CD, of course.

(I still have timers on my screen, but I use them much less frequently, and only for things like seeing if I can squeeze in that FB between Rip refreshes.)

Mijae · 01/07/09, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Rhashish

I have it set to show only when things are not active. When rake needs to be refreshed, a red Slash appears across the center of my screen. When SR goes down, an orange-ish dot. Rip, a larger red slash. OoC procs, a white circle (I was wasting procs on whatever move needed to be refreshed, instead of shredding). Mangle, a big paw (I was letting this fall off way too often). I don't need to know how long Rake, Mangle, SR, or TF cooldown have left, I just want to know when they need to be refreshed.

While I do see how this can be helpful, optimal dps cycles need to be proactive not reactive. That is, if you actively watch your timers you will know when each are going to fall off before they do and can plan accordingly. This is just like healing - if you wait until the tank takes damage before you start healing you're already behind. If you see that Mangle and Rake are going to fall off at the exact same time, you need to plan for that rather than using a Shred and not having energy for both or even one. Also I haven't actually done the math to back it up, but I would rather refresh Mangle before it falls off rather than after.

Holyhawk · 01/07/09, 6:35 PM

Installed Cat-Fight but it shows only 0% anytime

Practiced on a dummy in OG .. here is my wws... Wow Web Stats ... only buff was motw.

Is 3642 DPS in 185 seconds good or bad?

The World of Warcraft Armory

The first Trinket is darkmooncard greatness.

Mysticum · 01/07/09, 11:26 PM

3642 dps on a target dummy sounded high, even for your gear, but in one round, anything could happen. But how come your stats be totally wierd? 96 melee swings in over 3 minutes? 3 mangles over a 185 second fight? That would lead to not even 33% uptime on Mangle, which would take you nowhere any 3642 dps.

I'm a missing something out here?

Kiryojo · 01/08/09, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Holyhawk

Idol of Worship is broken

? ... edit/ tested it in og... my rip ticks with 1011 (without sr, mangle or trinketprocs) ... and with idol of worship it ticks with 1011 too

damn !

Can anyone give me WWS links where i can find pure DPS Cats? I just want to know what DPS on (for example) Patchwerk is good. My best DPS was at 4,7k but im not satisfied with 4,7k

.
I dont have my final equip but its not bad either.

http://wowwebstats.com/4o1piq626xauo

5352 on Patchwerk, though that was without an Ele shaman, and it was a long fight since we were 20 manning it (so less time was spent in cooldowns). I also made a few small mistakes here and there, so I'm confident I can break 5.5k easily with a more stacked raid. I'm still missing a few good pieces, namely Fury of the Five Flights, Favor of the Dragon Queen, and the Malygos tunic, and I need to rebalance my gems somewhat (my enchant/gems are not optimal at the moment; I should have more of my hit/expertise on gems).

nightcrowler · 01/08/09, 2:27 AM

Does Protector of the Pack works in cat form on test realms? If so, it will be a better talent than ImpMangle and many others, allowing also for more hybridity.

charriu · 01/08/09, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by greenriche

Charriu, if it's simple, can you post your changes to the code, or maybe even the whole .lua file?

Sure.

The file you want to change is CatFight.lua.

Around lines 106-115, you'll find some starting with "DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME":

DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Combat ended. Time = " .. endtime, 0.8, 0.8, 1);
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Time Elapsed: " .. (endtime - combatstarttime) .. " seconds.", 0.8,0.8,1);
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Mangle Uptime: " .. mangle.uptimeRatio .. 
	"% Mangle Overlap: " .. mangle.overlapRatio .. "%", 0.8,0.8,1);
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Rake Uptime: " .. rake.uptimeRatio .. 
	"% Rake Overlap: " .. rake.overlapRatio .. "%", 0.8,0.8,1);
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Savage Roar Uptime: " .. sr.uptimeRatio .. 
	"% Savage Roar Overlap: " .. sr.overlapRatio .. "%", 0.8,0.8,1);
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Rip Uptime: " .. rip.uptimeRatio ..
	"% Rip Overlap: " .. rip.overlapRatio .. "%", 0.8,0.8,1);

Directly above the first line, add this (you can use other conditions, for example sr.uptimeRatio > 20):

if (((endtime - combatstarttime) > 40) then

And directly below:

end

After that, /reloadui and hit a critter to test it.

Holyhawk · 01/08/09, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mysticum

3642 dps on a target dummy sounded high, even for your gear, but in one round, anything could happen. But how come your stats be totally wierd? 96 melee swings in over 3 minutes? 3 mangles over a 185 second fight? That would lead to not even 33% uptime on Mangle, which would take you nowhere any 3642 dps.

I'm a missing something out here?

Yeah, 3 HITS, rest was crits,... 70% crits... 3 = 30% + 7 = 70 % = 10x mangle = 100%.I was confused too ;-D.
1 mangle = 18 sec * 10 = 180 sec

. I startet with ravage, then rake, then mangle, i think the uptime was nearly 100%.

Davaeorn · 01/08/09, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mysticum

3642 dps on a target dummy sounded high, even for your gear, but in one round, anything could happen. But how come your stats be totally wierd? 96 melee swings in over 3 minutes? 3 mangles over a 185 second fight? That would lead to not even 33% uptime on Mangle, which would take you nowhere any 3642 dps.

I'm a missing something out here?

He's likely forgetting to mention something like a Mangle bot or a arms warrior on the same doll applying Trauma and stacking sunders.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Holyhawk

Yeah, 3 HITS, rest was crits,... 70% crits... 3 = 30% + 7 = 70 % = 10x mangle = 100%.I was confused too ;-D.
1 mangle = 18 sec * 10 = 180 sec . I startet with ravage, then rake, then mangle, i think the uptime was nearly 100%.

That's not how WWS works. Three hits means you hit the target with that ability three times, crit or not. Which makes me wonder how you got the 70% crit figure, that's not how two crits in three hits would round down (would be closer to 66%). Smells like modified combatlog.txt. Also, you're hitting the Grandmaster dummy, not the Heroic one. It's a normal level 80 mob for reasons of calculating hits and glances, a world of difference from a boss level mob.

EDIT2:

After checking the damage Mangle did, it indeed looks like it's closer to 10 Mangles than 3, but it still leaves the count question unanswered. I don't think the actual combat log would miss seven attacks.

Holyhawk · 01/08/09, 6:32 AM

But mangle was up, nearly 100%. I had no mangle bot or a warrior stacking sunder or trauma.

I just was alone. K i do it again, just dont want anyone to think i am cheating -.-.

But youre right, this time i will hit the heroic one.

When you look at my hits, for exampel mangle, a tooltip pops up! NB of landet hits (non-crit)...
Look at Kiryojos WWS, 7 rakes? 61% crit and 136272 dmg? I think my log is okay but just for you, i do it again.

EDIT : New WWS-Log on a heroic dummy...
WWS Loading...

a civilian · 01/08/09, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by Davaeorn

That's not how WWS works. Three hits means you hit the target with that ability three times, crit or not. Which makes me wonder how you got the 70% crit figure, that's not how two crits in three hits would round down (would be closer to 66%). Smells like modified combatlog.txt. Also, you're hitting the Grandmaster dummy, not the Heroic one. It's a normal level 80 mob for reasons of calculating hits and glances, a world of difference from a boss level mob.

Err that's not true. The number of "hits" in WWS is the number of noncrits. Mouse over the "hits" heading.

Boevis · 01/08/09, 7:43 AM

Actually that is how WWS works. Look at the Total column, 39,881 for Mangle and then at the average damage for the 3 hits. 3 x 2288 is not 39,881. 70% of his Mangles crit, which means 30% didn't with 0 misses that means 3 / .3 = 10 total Mangles. 10 - 3 = 7 Crits.

Likewise he had 192 white swings, which we can use to see he has ~.96 attack speed in catform (185 seconds / 192 attacks = .9635 seconds per attack)

Davaeorn · 01/08/09, 8:27 AM

I stand corrected, but I don't feel bad about my assumption. Kind of a weird layout for a spreadsheet designed to give you an overlook of your combat log.