I just realized this is a "serial killing" question... pardon while I go to try to answer my own question.

If the mob is alive for 10 seconds, the mangle->SR takes the first 2. 7 second rake? If it lives for 8 seconds-- 5 second rake?

Also, mangle->SR->Rake->2 shred crits+shred hit->FB takes 29+25+25+3*42+35 = 240 energy... so you can do a cycle on the first mob, maybe, if you get 2 crits and 8 seconds to DPS, and use TF. You start at 0 energy on the second mob. If you don't get 2 crits (half the time), you can't FB. If the mob dies before 8 seconds after you use your first attack, you can't FB. At what point do you abandon this method?

This is also 7 attacks in 8 seconds, which may challenging/impossible due to lag; 5 different attacks, which is challenging for the execution-impaired.

So let's call that a decent 12 second opening, because at, say, 50% crit chance, you'll get 1 crit in the pre-FB 7 out of 8 times, roughly.

All mangles instead of shreds runs 201 energy, which means you can afford getting only 1 FB crit, you'll have another attack in the 8 second window (if you have 0 lag). All mangles in 8s is as good as all shreds in 12, with 2t6. Otherwise, you need to wait till 10 seconds.

If the mob dies in 6 seconds (more likely if you're getting crits), you waste CP, and you'll be losing SR 4-9 seconds into your next cycle. If you didn't crit your first mob's rake, you get a low CP SR refresh on the second mob and are energy starved... get some CP on that mob, but not enough for a finisher, then it dies... then on the third mob, maybe you have SR up to get CP and a finisher, IF it's not down to half health because of another DPSer (or even tank) AOEing all 3. This seems like it's doomed to low DPS.

So to me, it sounds like my first instinct, to unload all the DPS I can into the first mob, is wrong unless I get lucky with crits or OoC procs.

So here's my proposed plan:

If I crit an opening rake, SR (so, 20 seconds, or the first two mobs). Then mangle. If I crit again, mangle; if I crit again, shred, else mangle to 5 CP. FB. An OoC proc turns a non-crit into a crit in the above sequence.

Noncrit rake: build to enough CP to have SR last for all the mobs (up to 5 CP), or until right before the mob dies. On second mob, you'll have SR up, so you should be able to run a rake->mangle->(mangles or shred, depending on crits)->FB before it dies.

Noncrit 1st mangle: hoard energy for second mob, start over. You want to unload early on #2, as SR is only briefly still up. Judge SR or FB situationally.

TLDR: If you get lucky early, you should unload on that first mob in a serial killing situation; else, hoard for the second mob.


This makes sense to me; any major flaws? The most prominent is getting to 4-5 CP without SR up, but otherwise you're wasting combo points.

I find it difficult to believe that if you're doing all that correctly, that you cannot get past low 2000's in DPS. That is all I do, and I'm anywhere from 3000-4000dps quite easily. Since you didn't post any WWSes, I'll let you look at some of mine to see what I did.

Let me preface this WWS with a few things.
1) I am not a cat spec... I'm clearly a tank spec, since I've been the Sarth3 MT, meaning that all the DPS done in the follow log is with a tank-style build (I have no shred for example). My talent spec, courtesy of WoWArmory: The World of Warcraft Armory

2) Because of my spec, my DPS "rotation" is Mangle-Spam w/ Rip, Rake, Roar. Mathematically speaking, it's not as good as Shred for combo, but I'm not spec'd for that.

3) I am notoriously bad at using my clearcasting procs on shreds. I have too many crappy things I'm paying attention to as raid leader that I haven't really made an effort to notice when omen goes off.

4) I don't berserk @ lust, I berserk whenever the tank has good aggro, and I happen to have a lot of energy. I do that in case the fight drags on, and I can get a 2nd berserk in. Bloodlust doesn't really affect cat global cooldown or energy production (I could be wrong on this), and if anything, it will simply increase your Omen proc-rate, which doesn't really help during a bloodlust anyways, since it doesn't let you spam any faster than during a non-bloodlust period.

5) Yes, I realize that shred is better dps, my point isn't that I'm min/max'd DPS wise, it's simply that I'm NOT doing an ideal DPS rotation, and I'm easily getting between 3000-4000 DPS with kinda whatever gear. (if you're curious, it's mostly badge gear, as medio raids with like 15 out of 25 people who need vanquisher tokens).

Anyways, enough prefacing here's Wow Web Stats

Hey now... I don't think there is a Horde guild on Blackrock older than the one I'm GM of, and I've been doing feral since Naxx-40 days, and Feral definitely isn't crap... it's still the most versatile spec out there, since we can tank and dps in the same spec, and we get other goodies like combat rez and innervate ^_^


*edit*
As for micromanaging your CPs, honestly, I just follow the rules of thumb, that I believe someone else posted earlier here:

1) Get a Roar up ASAP. I usually mangle once, then Roar immediately, then I go through the motions after.
2) TF whenever you're <25 energy and it's up.
3) Rake, then Shred for CP. If Roar is down, Roar, if not, Rip. If Rip and Roar are both up with at least 8sec on each, I'll FB.
4) If I FB'd, and got unlucky on crits, I'll still make sure I get my Roar back up ASAP. If this means Roaring with 2 combo points, I'll do it.

If you don't have a warrior keeping trauma up for you, then, you gotta juggle your mangle timer as well.


p.s.. these attached files are my Rawr XML files for my DPS gear if you want to see what I used.

Personally i have try a few mod for cat dps tracking, tried a few dot timer mod, tried NeedToKnow, and this is the latest mod that i find it really nice and suit all my needs for cat dps, BadKitty (BadKitty - Addons - Curse).

to tell if a target has mangle up, regardless of who applied it, I use a mod called PowerAuras. you can customize icons to show on your screen based on certain conditions: how many CP's do i have? does mob have X debuff? etc.

I don't think you can show how much time is remaining, but at least you can see if mangle is on them or not.

Hahaha don't get me wrong Killets, I i've been Feral since I stopped healing on Nefarion. I love the spec to bits. I don't play any other class and have been playing WoW on and off since closed Beta.

I just see your example for instance 3-4k DPS and I can't understand how im doing so badly, my gears not shite, im executing the widely accepted dps rotations reasonably efficiently and I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how to play a Druid but consistantly ranking in the bottom of the DPS tables is making me scratch my head in consternation.

Here is the wws report for last nights 25man, I was OT for most of it and only DPS'd on Loetheb, Thaddius and Sapphiron. If anyone can point out something glaringly stupid i've been doing I would greatly appreciate it.

Wow Web Stats

Here is just a cursory glance at say, Loatheb...

1) Your rip uptime looks terrible.

Me: Wow Web Stats
You: Wow Web Stats

My fight is 10sec shorter, but I have 20 more rip ticks than you (I have 33% BETTER Rip uptime!). There's really no excuse for that, esp when your crit rate is going to be so absurdly high that combo points are pretty much free.

2) Your rip damage is just ugly.

Your avg rip tick is a paltry 1300. My average rip tick is 1800. There is something wrong with your raid buffs, or you're simply never ripping with mangle up, or something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but rip should not be avg'ing 1400, unless you're Ripping with like 3 combo points or something.

3) You have a 3:40 min fight, which translates into 7 Tiger's Furys, except you only use it 5 times (I use it 6).

4) Browsing your armory, it looks like you haven't geared as much as you could/should have. I know RNG / luck, etc etc... but there are some key pieces of gear you're missing:

-- Your helm needs a meta. That's some free damage you're missing out on. Try to be running Heroic Oculus and Heroic Violet Hold as much as you can.
-- I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe that the Rip idol is currently broken, and you should be using something else. In your case, since you're Shredding, the Idol of Ravenous Beasts would help a lot.
-- I haven't theorycrafted it, but honestly, 2pc T6 could help you if you replaced helm+bracers. That would get you a metagem at least.

Makes sense, i'll definitely keep a closer eye on my Mangle. It's probably the debuff im least aware of to my detriment.

I regards to gear, DPS has taken a second place to tanking gear in my allocation and I've had rotten luck on helm drops both for tanking and dps having run Occ and VH mucho mucho times.

I'll go tone down the downie factor tonight and see what kinda DPS i can pull.

Idol of Worship is broken ? ... edit/ tested it in og... my rip ticks with 1011 (without sr, mangle or trinketprocs) ... and with idol of worship it ticks with 1011 too damn !

Can anyone give me WWS links where i can find pure DPS Cats? I just want to know what DPS on (for example) Patchwerk is good. My best DPS was at 4,7k but im not satisfied with 4,7k .
I dont have my final equip but its not bad either.

To expand on what killets posted, you did a poor job of keeping Mangle up as well. You were the only person in the raid with a bleed damage debuff and kept it up for 122 seconds in a 228 second fight (I'm talking about Loatheb), giving you 53.5% uptime. Mangle is a 30% damage increase to every yellow attack we have other than Ferocious Bite and refreshing Mangle. 100% Mangle uptime alone would have been worth about 47k more damage done.

As killets pointed out your Rip uptime was poor (126 seconds, 55.3%). Your Rake uptime was no better at 123 seconds for 53.9% uptime. You were better about Savage Roar, but it was still only up for 162 seconds for 71.1% uptime. Mangle, Savage Roar, and Rake should all be above 90% uptime.

Assuming that you had 2/2 Shredding Attacks, 3/3 Improved Mangle with no T6 bonus, 2/2 Primal Precision, and averaged spending 40 energy per Ferocious Bite you spent a total of 2310.9 energy in the fight. You had 2680 to work with, including the 100 you start with plus 300 from Tiger's Fury and 2280 regenerated naturally. You had enough left over energy for at least 8 more shreds, which if they all crit would have been about 43,176 more damage. You also only used 1 Berserk when you had time for 2, and as pointed out you had time for 7 Tiger's Furies but only used 5. Do everything you can to not let your energy cap out.

I don't mean to come down too hard, but the reason you aren't getting the numbers that other druids are is that you aren't doing a good job of running your rotation. Tighten up your rotation and you'll see a massive improvement in dps, much more than gear upgrades will offer you. If you aren't using one now get your hands on an addon that will track the various buffs and debuffs for you; there have been a number of options mentioned elsewhere in this thread. You should also practice on the target dummies.

Edit: I just looked at your armory and noticed that you don't have Primal Precision, Improved Mangle, or Predatory Instincts. From a dps perspective missing out on Primal Precision and Improved Mangle isn't a huge deal since you missed almost 0 attacks anyway and you aren't spamming Mangle. Predatory Instincts, however, is a pretty significant loss, especially against Loatheb when 85%+ of your attacks crit. I'm not saying that you need to pick it up since you need to remain a viable off-tank as well, but it is a significant source of damage on that fight that you were missing.

Maybe im just getting to old for this hahaha. I was playing with the dolly this morning. Endeavouring to keep Rip, Rake, Mangle, Savage Fury up at all times, burning Tigers Fury when my energy is low, using Shred when i have spare energy and Berserking at the beginning at Berserking again 3mins in.

Did a 4 minute fight still having trouble pushing 2200DPS. Im feeling like a classic downie, especialy since this is a stick standing still not doing anything.

I was curious about another thing, my mouse over white damage is approx 600-700Main Hand, 630DPS approx. Where as my actualy hits according to combat log will be lucky to push 350. w/ Faery Fire up, is this just mitigation on the bosses behalf ?

Ill do another one tonight and post my Recount results.

(Ill have to get another Shred idol aswell, I DE'd it when I got the Worship one stupidly)

I'm looking for a little help with analyzing WWS data.

How does one track Savage Roar uptime? What I'm looking for is an "x seconds out of y" for the fight type info. What I'm seeing now is only the initial application and reapplications of the buff. The way I'm interpreting it, ideally, you want to see exactly 1 application per boss encounter. Melthu, you listed actual seconds of uptime. Where is this located?

Also, I was able to figure out dot uptime by counting ticks, but Melthu, where does one find total uptime for mangle?