I'd just like to clarify this for those who haven't been around in a while that this wasn't the case in the past but mangle was buffed in the beta, changes which came live, from around 150% weapon damage to 200% weapon damage. This puts it very close to shreds 225% weapon damage but does not include the mangle debuff which increases shred damage by 30%.

As for a little bit of "napkin" maths on the subject:

Shred 225% weapon damage + 742 bonus for 60 energy base (42 Shredding attacks) with a possible 30% bonus from mangle and an additional 20% on bleeding targets with rend and tear.

Mangle 200% weapon damage + 634 bonus for 45 energy base (40 with ferocity, 34 with imp mangle and 29 with 2t6) with an addition all 20% bonus damage with savage fury.

Taking a base cat weapon hit of 500 (easily obtainable at level 80, even before savage roar is up): (DPE = damage per energy)

42 Energy shred with full bonuses hits for ((500 * 2.25) + 742) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 2912 giving 69.3 DPE
60 Energy shred with full bonuses hits for ((500 * 2.25) + 742) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 2912 giving 48.5 DPE

29 Energy mangle with full bonuses hits for ((500 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 1960 giving 67.6 DPE
35 Energy mangle (no 2t6) hits for ((500 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 1960 giving 56 DPE
40 Energy mangle (no imp mangle) hits for ((500 * 2 ) + 634) * 1.2 = 1960 giving 49 DPE

DPE varies alot on what bonuses are available for each attack, one could go further and take away all talent bonuses but just manipulating the energy cost reductions one can see that mangle is highly competetive given its low energy cost. This low energy costs also means more attacks per energy resulting in more combo points and more finishers - this is generally beyond napkin math and where the simulators come in!. Shred having the highest damage with the bonuses should probably still be used while clearcasting is up for real optimization. At the end of the day it comes down to talent choices, which bonuses are available to each attack, determining which one should be used as a CP generator.

My current "hybrid" build can be found here. I use mangle spam with 2t6 when dpsing in cat form. I also realise that it isn't optimized, there are a couple of changes that could be made for extra dps (predatory strikes > rend and tear)

Finally feel free to poke me if my maths are wrong, its easy to make mistakes .

What is the optimal use of energy during Berserk? When I find myself sitting with 5cp rip and 5cp SR, what should I do with the excess energy? FB seems like a waste during berserk. Should I just keep shredding until I need to use combo points? If I use 2T6 and imp mangle for combo points, should I shred or mangle while berserked?

As pointed out, as long as you have Shredding Attacks, the DPE of Shred is better than even 2T6/Imp Mangle and you should use Shred in all cases -- Berserk doesn't change the relative DPE values, only doubles them.

I think the correct answer is that you'll be able to Shred several extra times, and then reapply Rake and Mangle somewhere in there and hit FB if you can get your energy down to 18, probably right as Berserk ends, setting you up to TF again soon and start a fresh rotation.

I obviously agree that using extra energy on FB is bad and should be avoided through good timing or (under Berserk) extra Shreds.

TL;DR Version: If you have 2pt6 use mangle to generate combo points, use Rawr to figure out when to replace it and start using Shred.

Shred vs. Mangle is largely dependent on your gear. It's really hard to come up with concrete numbers regarding combo point generation, but I would definitely use Mangle until you have a decent amount of crit at 80, especially if you have the 2pt6 bonus as the better combo point generation (42/29= ~1.44 times better) will allow you to keep up a much more steady cycle. Shred however scales better with AP.

If you gain 12.727 (14 / 1.1) attack power you gain one point of damage and since kitty swings at 1.00/second that would result in a gain of one point for our base damage.

Shred = ((501 * 2.25) + 742) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 2916.03 Damage
Mangle = ((501 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 1963.2 Damage

So as you can see 12.727 AP increases Shred damage by 3.51 (2916.03 - 2912.52 = 3.51) and Mangle damage by 2.4 (1963.2 - 1960.8 = 2.4) so one would assume that there is going to be a point at which it becomes better to use Shred in your DPS rotation as your main CP generation ability.

The issue is that the rate at which the DPE per AP increases assuming talented shred and 2pt6 is fairly similar for both skills. Shred = 3.51/42 = 0.08357 DPE/(1dps or 12.727 AP) while Mangle = 2.4/29 = 0.08276 DPE/(1dps or 12.727 AP) so the amount of AP needed to get Shred to be an additional 1 DPE better than Mangle is A LOT. Specifically (1 / (0.08357 - 0.08276)) * 12.72700 = 15712 AP. So basically, as long as you don't have gear that's better than 2pt6 you wanna use mangle to generate combo points.

P.S. If you have 5/5 Rend and Tear always use shred on OoC procs.

EDIT:
While the DPE of Shred is always greater the combo point generation is always worse (excluding not taking any talents that decrease the energy cost at mangle and taking 2/2 shredding attacks) thus making the decision between Shred and Mangle much more complex. However, while berserking I would definitely use Shred over Mangle provided that you have 2/2 shredding attacks.

If the 1.2 is from Rend and Tear, why is Mangle also multiplied by 1.2?

If not, where is RnT?

From this post, around 4 posts up from the one you quoted (emphasis mine):

Fun stuff for sure. Although if you just spam mangle you end berserk with like 25 energy left over. : (

Yup, I was talking about how the AP displayed in your character sheet affected your DPS, therefore I didn't have to consider any of the multipliers AP from items/stats has to go through. Sorry my post was so hard to follow, first time posting here. : )

Currently I am in a situation where I need to have hybrid abilities "tank and dps in one spec", just looking at the allocation of talent points it has lead to using a mangle style of build.

Talent spec - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (there is one point in improved leader of the pack for mana regeneration)

For this spec to work you do need to have at least 2xT6 and I am still using 4xT6 2xT7

The main things I have found while using this spec is making a proper rotation based around rip uptime. With the glyph and T7 bonus rip last for 19 seconds, however what I have found is by using a five combo point savage roar it will very often clash with rip causing some noticeable downtime. what I am using now is actually a rotation of using a 3 point savage and a 5 point rip and just looking at these numbers they do time very well in terms of energy requirements.

Combo points required is based on your crit chance

Crit Chance - 3 points - 5 points - Total Attacks
Crit<25% - 3 - 5 - 8
Crit<50% - 3 - 4 - 7
Crit<67% - 2 - 4 - 6
Crit>67% - 2 - 3 - 5

I would assume most people are in the 25%-50% category which means you need to generate enough energy for 7 attacks plus a rip and savage roar. If you are above 50% crit then you will probably be looking at a different rotation.

so in 20 seconds we need
1 Rip = 30 energy
1 Savage roar = 25 energy
2 Rakes (9 second dots, this keeps it up during the cycle) = 70 energy
5 Mangles = 145 energy
Total = 270

Total for 20 seconds
200 from Regeneration
~40 from Tigers fury
Total = 240

Now if we get one omen of clarity proc in this period which you should try and use a shred on, it will save us 29 energy "savage roar doesn't consume clear casting so we assume a mangle is taken out of the rotation", 270 - 29 = 241 which is the energy required for the rotation (This means I have Assumed Clear casting to be 3 procs per minute, however I am not sure on this figure).

This puts the rotation around 20.1 seconds.

The advantages of this style is that you have a very precise set of moves which will maximise rip uptime and should not lead to difficult situations where rip and savage roar run out at the same time, this does mean you are using 25 energy every 20 seconds instead of every 34 seconds which wastes 32 energy every minute, but with the damage per energy of rip being so high there should also be benefits.

If that works out, it sounds great, for those ferals still sulking about the splitting of cat from bear (like me).

I some how talked my way into replacing a rogue in my guild. So i get to be kitty 100% of the time, hooray! I usually am topping the meters without much of a problem. But after telling a friend to go BM he is smashing me on the DPS meter. Is there anything i can do to keep up or close the gap?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Iammrfluffy
(i just got the band of the kirin tor so please forgive the lack of an enchant)

I am using and abusing my 4pt6 in conjunction with 2pt7. My glyphs are mangle, rip and innervate.

My normal rotation goes as follows

Rake
Mangle
SR
TF
mangle to 5combo points
rip

repeat

I usually pop berserk after a SR and then proceed to put up 5pt rips, rakes and mangle spam till i can 5p FB.
I am also unclear as to when i should switch to a shred rotation build, and it looks like there is no real answer to this comment.

Depending on fights, buffs, and raid make up, i am usually sitting around 3800-4500dps.

According to rawr i am a little under my optimum dps potential. Are you guys seeing the same results?

I don't think I would worry about it too much if the only person beating you is a hunter. From what I have read Blizzard has acknowledged that they are doing extremely good and possibly overpowered damage, so keep doin' what you do.