Freedom

Currently I am in a situation where I need to have hybrid abilities "tank and dps in one spec", just looking at the allocation of talent points it has lead to using a mangle style of build.

Talent spec - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (there is one point in improved leader of the pack for mana regeneration)

For this spec to work you do need to have at least 2xT6 and I am still using 4xT6 2xT7

The main things I have found while using this spec is making a proper rotation based around rip uptime. With the glyph and T7 bonus rip last for 19 seconds, however what I have found is by using a five combo point savage roar it will very often clash with rip causing some noticeable downtime. what I am using now is actually a rotation of using a 3 point savage and a 5 point rip and just looking at these numbers they do time very well in terms of energy requirements.

Combo points required is based on your crit chance

Crit Chance - 3 points - 5 points - Total Attacks
Crit<25% - 3 - 5 - 8
Crit<50% - 3 - 4 - 7
Crit<67% - 2 - 4 - 6
Crit>67% - 2 - 3 - 5

I would assume most people are in the 25%-50% category which means you need to generate enough energy for 7 attacks plus a rip and savage roar. If you are above 50% crit then you will probably be looking at a different rotation.

so in 20 seconds we need
1 Rip = 30 energy
1 Savage roar = 25 energy
2 Rakes (9 second dots, this keeps it up during the cycle) = 70 energy
5 Mangles = 145 energy
Total = 270

Total for 20 seconds
200 from Regeneration
~40 from Tigers fury
Total = 240

Now if we get one omen of clarity proc in this period which you should try and use a shred on, it will save us 29 energy "savage roar doesn't consume clear casting so we assume a mangle is taken out of the rotation", 270 - 29 = 241 which is the energy required for the rotation (This means I have Assumed Clear casting to be 3 procs per minute, however I am not sure on this figure).

This puts the rotation around 20.1 seconds.

The advantages of this style is that you have a very precise set of moves which will maximise rip uptime and should not lead to difficult situations where rip and savage roar run out at the same time, this does mean you are using 25 energy every 20 seconds instead of every 34 seconds which wastes 32 energy every minute, but with the damage per energy of rip being so high there should also be benefits.

 

Spookeh

If that works out, it sounds great, for those ferals still sulking about the splitting of cat from bear (like me).

 

iammrfluffy

I some how talked my way into replacing a rogue in my guild. So i get to be kitty 100% of the time, hooray! I usually am topping the meters without much of a problem. But after telling a friend to go BM he is smashing me on the DPS meter. Is there anything i can do to keep up or close the gap?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Iammrfluffy
(i just got the band of the kirin tor so please forgive the lack of an enchant)

I am using and abusing my 4pt6 in conjunction with 2pt7. My glyphs are mangle, rip and innervate.

My normal rotation goes as follows

Rake
Mangle
SR
TF
mangle to 5combo points
rip

repeat

I usually pop berserk after a SR and then proceed to put up 5pt rips, rakes and mangle spam till i can 5p FB.
I am also unclear as to when i should switch to a shred rotation build, and it looks like there is no real answer to this comment.

Depending on fights, buffs, and raid make up, i am usually sitting around 3800-4500dps.

According to rawr i am a little under my optimum dps potential. Are you guys seeing the same results?

 

Beefo

From playing around with my gear in rawr (which is quite similar to yours) the only time to switch to a shred build is when you drop 2 piece t6, the extra rip uptime outdoes the difference in dpe between mangle and shred, which is only a small margin with 2 piece t6.

 

bean81782

I don't think I would worry about it too much if the only person beating you is a hunter. From what I have read Blizzard has acknowledged that they are doing extremely good and possibly overpowered damage, so keep doin' what you do.

 

Silverstorm

My druid (see signature) is leveling up right now, and while I got to raid a little bit at 70, I didn't get into T6 instances, therefore I don't have 2t6 available unless I drag some people back through BT or Hyjal or Sunwell. I've watched the Shred/Mangle debate, so I decided to try some math and figure out what the deal is. Here's what I did (note, this is theory, I haven't figured out if there's an actual rotation that makes this work):

1. Assume Rake (9 seconds), Glyphed Rip (no T7, 16 seconds), 5p SR (34 seconds), 3/3 King of the Jungle with Tiger's Fury used on cooldown. Assume Ferocity, Shredding Attacks, Improved Mangle, Predatory Instincts (standard cat DPS talents)
2. For Shred calculation, assume Glyphed Mangle (18 seconds)
3. Energy regen is 10 energy/second. Tiger's Fury adds 2 energy/second.
4. Calculate minimum time required to finish all cycles at the same time, using Least Common Multiple
5. Determine the inflow and outflow of Energy/second (since we're energy bound)
6. Assume 6% proc rate on Omen of Clarity on white attacks, and assume those are all Shreds (or Mangles). Wowhead comments indicate OoC procs only on white attacks.
7. Compute damage done by all attacks in terms of DPS

Step 1 is pretty self explanatory. I intend to run the numbers with T7 as well, but I want to make sure my methods are sound first.

Step 2 is another assumption, but a fair one, I think.

Step 3 is basic game mechanics. I know the Tiger's Fury adds 60 energy all at once, but this doesn't alter the average energy flows because we're already energy bound. 60 energy at once shouldn't waste any energy once we get into steady state of attacking.

Step 4
Keep in mind, that's nearly 41 minutes.

Step 5
Y is relatively simple to find due to the law of conservation of energy. Energy in + energy out = 0 e/s. Therefore, Y = -3.612 e/s.

As a result, X = -42 / -3.612 = 11.628 seconds per shred due to the energy requirements of debuff maintenance.

Step 6

2448 white attacks at 6% proc rate gives about 146.9 OoC procs. This adds 2/3 more Shreds, since these would occur every 16.667 seconds.

Step 7
Damage calculations assume Ferocity, Naturalist, Savage Fury, Mangle debuff (self-applied), Predatory Instincts, and Rend and Tear.

AP and Crit are the variables used below. AP includes Savage Roar, Crit include Predatory Instincts. Rip calculation is extended to 16 seconds by scaling the damage up from 6 ticks to 8 ticks, assuming same tick strength for all 8 ticks.

Plugging in base AP of 5200 and Crit of 43%, Savage Roar and Predatory Instincts give 7280 AP and 47.3% extra damage on crits. I think 5200 was a reasonable AP from a high-end T6, and I chose 43% crit to minimize excess combo points. Anything higher built up CP faster than energy was available to use them. I'm not sure if a Ferocious Bite just before a Tiger's Fury would be possible, since the calculations I did were based on zero net energy.

When I repeat steps 5-7 for Mangle (29 and 34 energy), the results indicate Shred is still better DPS (for this combination of AP/crit at least). Once my calculations are checked over, I plan to run a quick program to compute for a variety of AP/crit combos.

Here's the Mangle steps:

Step 5 (Mangle)
Y is relatively simple to find due to the law of conservation of energy. Energy in + energy out = 0 e/s. Therefore, Y1 = -5.501 e/s.

As a result, X1 = -34 / -5.501 = 6.181 seconds per mangle due to the energy requirements of debuff maintenance.

As a result, X2 = -29 / -5.501 = 5.272 seconds per mangle due to the energy requirements of debuff maintenance.

Step 6 (Mangle)
2448 white attacks at 6% proc rate gives about 146.9 OoC procs. This adds 1/3 more Shreds, since these would occur every 16.667 seconds.

Step 7 (Mangle)
Damage calculations assume Ferocity, Naturalist, Savage Fury, Mangle debuff (self-applied), Predatory Instincts, and Rend and Tear.

AP and Crit are the variables used below. AP includes Savage Roar, Crit include Predatory Instincts. Rip calculation is extended to 16 seconds by scaling the damage up from 6 ticks to 8 ticks, assuming same tick strength for all 8 ticks.

Plugging in base AP of 5200 and Crit of 43%, Savage Roar and Predatory Instincts give 7280 AP and 47.3% extra damage on crits. I think 5200 was a reasonable AP from a high-end T6, and I chose 43% crit to minimize excess combo points (and it's easy to confirm identical formulas between Shred/Mangle sheets). Anything higher built up CP faster than energy was available to use them. I'm not sure if a Ferocious Bite just before a Tiger's Fury would be possible, since the calculations I did were based on zero net energy.

Or, for 2t6 + Imp:
I should mention that 43% base crit (47.3% with PI) leaves 0.031 CP/second with Imp Mangle and 0.072 CP/second with 2t6/Imp Mangle. That turns into 75.4 and 176 extra combo points over the course of ~41 minutes. For a reasonable 4-6 minute fight, this is only 7-10 or 17-25 CP depending on presence of 2t6.

Results
Mangle (Imp): 2659.6
Mange (2t6/Imp): 2750.6
Shred: 2823.1

Since Shred scales marginally better than Mangle, I believe it would continue to outperform Mangle.

Increasing Base AP to 7800 gives this:

Mangle (Imp): 3529.8
Mangle (2t6/Imp): 3649.0
Shred: 3741.0

These results extend the gap between each combination, which indicates a somewhat linear relationship based on AP. More crit just means extra CP, or perhaps more timely CP, since none of this includes the actual ability rotation that makes this possible.

Comments?
I'm fairly new to the cat DPS world, so I'd appreciate if those more experienced and knowledgeable would review the above calculations. I hope it's straightforward to follow, if not, I'll be happy to clarify anything.

80 Silvertotem - 80 Silverstorm

 

Marauding Master

As my Balance DPS only sits around 2600(Surprisingly still topping everyone else, great guild) I'm going to try Feral as soon as the servers are up to see if it increases my DPS. Because I never played Feral before, I don't have any tiered pieces so this would make a Shred build more effective, right?

I'm currently planning to play the following build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With 4 points left where I've got no clue where to spend them on. I'm planning to become a pure DPS kitty.

 

Carlos

I usually go for this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
plus NI

I don't take Master Shapeshifter because the 3 points in Nautral Shapshifter are very expensive to get those 4% crit. I will do a test run in Naxx 10 as soon as I can for this specc above and the one with Master Shapeshifter as soon as my gear has stabilized a bit.

 

Nadir_Eonar

Why take Feral Instinct for PvE raiding? If you skip it you can get 4% more crit like this. 4% crit is going to do a lot more for your DPS than improved stealth.

 

charriu

Well, I always found that bear form + swipe spam is much nicer than hurricane in cat gear. So, those talent points aren't really wasted, given the amount of trash in current raids.

 

Nadir_Eonar

True I guess if you are worried about trash DPS. Still i'd rather lose points in feral aggression than the 4% crit for a DPS spec myself - 4% crit is a whole lot of free crit considering how much agility is required to get 1% crit nowadays. So when swipe (cat) arrives (can't wait) I'll probably go for something like this, assuming feral instinct also buffs the catform version of swipe.

Improved FB through feral aggression is a nice talent to have on trash and when soloing but I rarely find myself able to fit Ferocious Bites in on bosses myself, and 5 talent points for a 15% buff to an infrequently used ability doesn't seem worth it when you can get 4% crit on white dps, shreds and mangles (and also theh extra crit provides synergy with Predatory Instincts and Primal Fury).

 

ErrantSpark

With regards to spec I'd try out the one Kazanir is using (first post in the thread), and in terms of mangle v.s. shred I would start out with a mangle rotation simply because you probably won't have enough crit to keep up a steady rotation using shred. Additionally, it's a lot more difficult to keep track of things if using a shred rotation so and I think the vast majority of people will get better results using mangle as they first try feral because there is more room for error and it's actually possible to keep up a rotation with nearly 100% savage roar, rake and rip uptime.

 

Fauxpаw

2Silverstorm
Thank you for a very good post.

But having in mind how little the difference in DPS between mangle/feral spam is, shouldn't you take finishers into account? Even if it is 17-25 points only for 4-6 minutes fight, that's up to 5 FBs (about 10k on avg each? Sorry, I am still confused with cats multipliers, given 7280 SRed AP, avg non-crit non multiplied FB is about 4200, I assume it translates into about 10k with crit bonus and 20% bonus from "something" (assuming FB always crits given 70% base crit + 43% from gear)) Thats roughly 50000 dmg over 360 seconds => about 140'extra" dps, which is roughly twice as much as the difference between shred/2t6 mangle spam. (!) (but yes, I've ignored 175 energy that one would need to 5xFB as well that the fact that it would be quite hard to perfectly time FBs, but it still shows that finishers shouldn't be ignored in calculations)

 

Monedula

I also wondered about the use of mangle vs shred.
I did some calculations on the shred vs mangle per energypoint story depending on some AP I guess I have;
I did not calculate in the 2t6 part because, 1 I don't have that in feral, 2 WotLK gear is better and if not at this point it will be finally replaced.

Conclusion: it looks like shred and mangle scale about the same way.
However this doesn't mean shred is the best option by definition. This is because the use of mangle generates more CP per energy, thus making Mangle better then DPE values state.

I think somewhere (don't have the time to look it up) there are calculations on how many actions are needed depending on crit percentage. Then there should be some kind of calculation what that means for druids, how much more damage...

Instead of spending a lot of thinking and calculation on what the perfect rotation would be, I agree with a previous post saying we should not talk about rotation but of appropriate use of abilities at the best time.

I don't know how it is for others but I at least have had some periods when I lacked energy and some periods (berserk, tigers fury) when I had too much energy.

I would suggest the following use of mangle/shred:
Berserk: Shred only!
Tigers fury: Shred, but use mangle if you are about to replace both savage fury and rip soon. Tigers fury's 30 second cooldown fits nicely with savage roar's 34 second duration. Use that to your advantage (if the fight allows it).
All of the other time: Mangle.

[edit]
Counting in cooldowns, refresh time and stuff I did some calculations on energy availability.

Having 2t7 and glyph of Rip your rip lasts 19 seconds. (though it seems 20 seconds effectively).

so every 34 second cycle (SR length) you will get:
That is less then mangle and shred costs. So if it was a steady flat fight mangle would still be the best option (not counting berserk).

Lets do a slightly different calculation: Using SR at less combo points:
3 CP sR = 24 seconds
so every 24 second cycle (SR length) you will get:
So the 5CP use of SR is preferred always.
In some circumstances like Malygos this does of course not apply. Malygos is not in melee range long enough for a 5 CP SR to run out. Better to use a shorter one.
For instance: Hit > SR, Hit till 5 points > Rip, 1 hit > SR Hit till 5 points and rip again if possible. Meanwhile using your Tigers Fury asap.

Thus the statement above is not changed: Only shred when you have way too much energy (Berserk and Omen of Clarity proc or a miscalculated tigers Fury).

 

HengeMaker

Sorry if this is something that's common knowledge, I just came back to WoW after a 3 or 4 month hiatus. I noticed that the mangle tooltip no longer says that it gives a 30% bonus to shred(just bleeds). Is this a misprint? I notice people in this thread keep using the 1.3 multiplier in their calculations.

 

Pharmacon

Shred

Changed due to Trauma being the same debuff as Mangle/Mangle

 

Syra

I'm not 80 yet so keep that in mind. I also started my druid a month ago so I have zero raid gear, I'm in all northrend blues and greens.
That said, I'm specced for tanking, because I want that experience while leveling up.

However, occasionally I go to an instance in a dps role.
I found my cat dps was pretty gimpy compared to other classes with all the AOE talents. Not to mention, trash mobs die in seconds, so rip is a waste. I decided cat dps wasn't enough and experimented with the following approach:

Pounce > Shred > TF > Shred > Mangle > FB > Bear > Enrage > Maul(w/glyph) > Swipe > Swipe, throw in a maul when you've got the energy for it.

Rinse and repeat for the next pull. Throw in a bash for a caster.

My DPS went up and my overall damage output moved me up to place number 2 on the meters.

 

Silverstorm

You're correct that you have enough CP for 3-5 FB. However, as you mentioned, you wouldn't have the energy for both FB and keeping Rip and SR rolling. The main problem with my theoretical stuff is actually having the CP ready at the right times for SR and Rip. I haven't had a chance to play with actual possible rotations, but given the 16s of Rip and 34s of SR, you wind up having to refresh both at about the same time. Spacing them further apart means you either overwrite Rip ticks, or can't apply due to a "stronger effect" on the target. Neither are optimal for DPS.

The other issue (energy) forces you to ignore finishers like FB. The only time the ability actually maximizes DPE (and thus DPS indirectly) is when used at exactly 35 energy (or less with OoC proc). The additional damage added by excess energy lowers the efficiency of FB. The base damage for a 35 energy FB is 0.35*AP + 1640 (average). For 5200 AP (ignoring all multipliers for now), that's 3460 or nearly 100 DPE. For 36 energy, you add (36-35)*(9.4 + AP/410), which is 22.1 DPE. The additional damage from excess energy is purely linear, so you start lowering the ~100 DPE with every additional point of energy you have. All that said, if I did the math right, specced FB (5/5 Feral Aggression + Rend/Tear) surpasses a Glyphed Rip in DPE at about 16.5k AP if you have 43% crit (possibly attainable in T8/T9?). Without the Rip Glyph, FB surpasses at roughly 4k AP, which is easily attainable in Northrend greens once you get Savage Roar.

Calcs:

Rip: (0.3*AP+3204)*1.3*1.1
GRip: (0.3*AP+3204)*1.3*1.1*(16/12) (extended duration)
FB: (0.35*AP+1640)*1.15*1.1*(1+0.5+0.43) (0.5 from Rend/Tear assuming a bleeding target, 0.43 from crit percentage)

Adding the 2t7 bonus, FB doesn't pass a Glyphed/2t7 Rip in DPE until past 30k AP if you have 43% crit. The [almost] exact number is 38686.7, which we might see someday.

80 Silvertotem - 80 Silverstorm

 

Baggles

I really have no idea why you would ever shred prior to using mangle. Moreover, you'd probably get a lot more out of using pounce -> SR -> rake -> mangle -> TF -> shred. Not for nothing, but there's so much information across a multitude of cat dps threads, I'm pretty sure there's no more groundbreaking rotations to discover.

 

Baggles

While this is accurate, I find that it's not necessarily bad for a dps rotation to just use SR when it's down. For example, if you roar at 1 or 2 cp at the beginning of a cycle, rip at 5 cp, at ~48%ish crit, you should be able to reapply a roar at ~2-3 cp. Going from there, generally I find I'm able to work it into a cycle where I'm simply keeping roar, rake, a 5-pt rip, and still able to bite in-between. The problem is that it is absolutely not static and requires what amounts to total concentration (look out for void zones lolz). Still, having topped meters in a very competitive guild, it does appear to be the best cycle I can muster.

 

Monedula

While reading more into this thread I though of an other way to calculate Shred vs Mangle (energy available, duration and cooldowns taken into the picture). Edited this in my earlier post:
Cat DPS Rotation

Same conclusion, Shred only when you have too much energy.

 

Fauxpаw

Monedula, I don't get where your conclusion comes from at all. You show that Shred and Mangle have roughly the same scaling AND Shred has higher DPE. Then you somehow jump to the conclusion "mangle is still better" but don't really show why.

Guys, it's quite depressing that you don't read each others posts. We actually have 2 contradicting "napkin math" results, one states Shred is better, the other that Mangle is. Now both calculations ignore or exaggerate "extra CP" from mangle and both could be right/wrong about it, which again leaves "Shred or Mangle" question unanswered.

 

Monedula

I read the other post and decided to do my own dps calculations.
With more AP it seems Mangle and Shred scale about the same. The thing about my post is that I don't look at DPE at all. I mentioned that mangle is not as bad as it seems (vs shred on DPE alone) because mangle generates more CP. Thus they are closer together then the math shows. Hard to define is, how much CP is 8 energy saved? And how much damage is 8 energy?

Looking at the problem form a CP perspective I did some math. That math shows at a 5CP Savage Roar there is not enough energy to generate the CP needed. With a shorter lasting Savage Roar it shows you have even less energy. There is no good way to get the needed CP to keep every debuff up at all times.

I know there is a lot more info you can put into the calculation.
A higher crit change, Omen of Clarity procs etc. Those would be in favor the use of Shred. The fact that a crit at 4CP only generates 1 CP (not in this equation) would favor mangle more.
In any case there is the following comparison left: If you do shred instead of mangle you got less uptime of rip, rake and savage roar. The questions are: What is the best to postpone if you don't have the energy if you have to make a choice. And does using more energy because of shred give more dps while there is less uptime of the debuffs.

The thing about this theorycrafting is that there is no real good way to calculate it all. Like the question: At 5 CP with Rip and SR up, would you prefer to renew Rake or not?
The best way to calculate what does the most dps is to make a program in which you can manually enter priorities of your special abilities, add crit change, hit values, etc. You can even calculate in a factor that a ability mightnot be used at the millisecond it is ready but that there is a variable wait time of 0.1 to 0.5 seconds before the ability is used. Run the model 1000 times and then make a different model and run that 1000 times. Generate statistics on energy used, dps done, CP generated, idle downtime, etc.
That would be the best way to see which is the best.

Any volunteer?

[edit]
I read through my previous post and realized what you said about not mentioning that Mangle generates more CP is true. I am a bit wondered about that because THAT was my reason for mentioning Mangle was not as bad then when looking at DPE alone.
You are right, I missed that, though I was very well aware of it, edited it now.

 

Fauxpаw

Not sure that I understand you, but my point was: just the fact that mangle generates more CPs is not enough, since you still don't know if you could effectively use those extra CPs from mangle spam to improve your DPS over shred spam.

Yes, That and we also need a program we could trust.

 

Inaiwae

Do the "mangle is better" posts take into account that we have only shred idol available so far?