So, until now I've been the only feral in raids, and we've had no arms warriors. Now we got a druid tank in our raids, and I figured I would completely skip mangle and just use shred, cause the new druid tank would keep up mangle. But for some reason I can't see his mangle debuff on the boss :S
I know he is using it, and I even see the animation for it, but the debuff doesn't show on the boss until I apply it.
Any other kitties have the same problem? Got any good addons / solutions for it. And even if the debuff from the other druid doesn't show, will it still increase my bleed dmg by 30%?
Its really annoying! in example; Grobbulus, he is OT this fight for slimes, and its really hard for me to tell when I have to mangle to keep the debuff up, if I can't see his mangle debuff on the boss... So basicly I end up using mangle all the time in my rotations.
Oh, and one more thing! It seems that if I apply mangle (Yes I got the glyph of mangle), my debuff dissapears as soon as the other druid mangles, so I end up seeing a 3-4 second mangle debuff on the boss and I reapply it in fear of loosing the 30% bleed dmg.
This really hurts my dps in fights like patchwerk. Please help me ;D
So, until now I've been the only feral in raids, and we've had no arms warriors. Now we got a druid tank in our raids, and I figured I would completely skip mangle and just use shred, cause the new druid tank would keep up mangle. But for some reason I can't see his mangle debuff on the boss :S
I know he is using it, and I even see the animation for it, but the debuff doesn't show on the boss until I apply it.
Any other kitties have the same problem? Got any good addons / solutions for it. And even if the debuff from the other druid doesn't show, will it still increase my bleed dmg by 30%?
Its really annoying! in example; Grobbulus, he is OT this fight for slimes, and its really hard for me to tell when I have to mangle to keep the debuff up, if I can't see his mangle debuff on the boss... So basicly I end up using mangle all the time in my rotations.
Oh, and one more thing! It seems that if I apply mangle (Yes I got the glyph of mangle), my debuff dissapears as soon as the other druid mangles, so I end up seeing a 3-4 second mangle debuff on the boss and I reapply it in fear of loosing the 30% bleed dmg.
This really hurts my dps in fights like patchwerk. Please help me ;D
Do you have an UI addon that disables debuffs from other players? You can try to just duo some mobs and debug it.
Do you have an UI addon that disables debuffs from other players? You can try to just duo some mobs and debug it.
Not that I know. Cause I see all the other debuffs, like curse of elements and bleeds and dots from other classes. I mainly use DBM, Omen, outfitter and Recount when I raid. Sometimes my atlas loot is also activated.
Do you know any addons that can show it more visible? I tried ecb, but I cant really get it to work cause it just flods my screen because of all the debuffs on the boss from the raid.
I think drood focus shows the timer for any toons' mangle debuff on the target. I'm thinking it might not keep track if anyone has trauma up or not however.
I think drood focus shows the timer for any toons' mangle debuff on the target. I'm thinking it might not keep track if anyone has trauma up or not however.
We have an arms warrior, I'm pretty sure last version keep track of trauma (the same symbol as mangle). It also keep track of berserking (weapon).
I don't think you can handwave out crit% from your argument, Allev, but in any case, other than the extent to which your rotation is affected by misses, dodges, and crits, itemization is off the topic.
Didn't mean to just "handwave" it out of the conversation, but it fundamentally changes your argument to go from "AP is clearly superior due to buffs and SR" to "AP is superior because crit scales with it, too". It doesn't fundamentally change my argument, it just changes my argument from "1% hit ~= 1% damage" to "X% hit ~= Y% damage", but the premise is the same-- how much hit rating does it take to raise your damage by 1%? Essentially a fixed number relative to AP.
It's all about the weights of relative stat values, and with the exception of agility (because it was nerfed), we're very close in WotLK to the relative stat values we saw near the T4 level in TBC. The amount of AP which 1 point grants effectively doesn't matter, it's what percentage of your total AP that point represents.
Given that this is more a "Cat DPS" thread much more than it's discussing actual rotations, I didn't think it was off-topic.
Didn't mean to just "handwave" it out of the conversation, but it fundamentally changes your argument to go from "AP is clearly superior due to buffs and SR" to "AP is superior because crit scales with it, too". It doesn't fundamentally change my argument, it just changes my argument from "1% hit ~= 1% damage" to "X% hit ~= Y% damage", but the premise is the same-- how much hit rating does it take to raise your damage by 1%? Essentially a fixed number relative to AP.
It's all about the weights of relative stat values, and with the exception of agility (because it was nerfed), we're very close in WotLK to the relative stat values we saw near the T4 level in TBC. The amount of AP which 1 point grants effectively doesn't matter, it's what percentage of your total AP that point represents.
Given that this is more a "Cat DPS" thread much more than it's discussing actual rotations, I didn't think it was off-topic.
Eh, I think I phrased that badly anyway (bad enough that I got infracted when what I was trying to do was agree with a poster on the previous page, but it obviously didn't come out that way. I wasn't trying to say your post was off the topic per se--and in any event, you were correcting misinformation, which can't be a bad idea even if it's diverging from the main thread.) Anyway, hit scales negatively with crit on white damage (until your % crit exceeds 1-(miss+dodge)), and neutrally with it on yellow damage. If you're up around 60% crit raid buffed, then gaining 1% hit (at, say, 95% chance to land a blow) only adds about .3% to your white damage, because of the one-roll system.
You're obviously right, though, and I was obviously wrong, that in the general case, X hit adds X% hit chance which adds a consistent per cent damage, while X AP adds X static damage which is a diminishing gain to per cent damage, so % hit _must_ overtake eventually even if we're not there yet. Failing to see that was what I was blaming on the lack of caffeine...
Re-asking the question which was the innocent victim when my post got moderated out for my crappy construction: Do people simplify their rotation when they're in movement-heavy or frequently interrupted fights, or do they just maintain the priority system as best as they are able? On some interrupted fights (particularly Sapphiron) I'm doing incredibly well relative to my normal rank among our DPSers (even beating fury warriors that I can normally never touch--I was doing this even pre-3.08), but on others I trail really badly, and I'm thinking it's because on Sapph the interruptions are so regular while on, say, OS+ or even Malygos (due to sparks, etc) I'm not handling the RNG factors of the fight very well. Is there something I don't know about that makes Sapph harder for other melee DPS, and I'm just the unwitting beneficiary? This isn't a "fix me I'm broke" question, so much as a "Can other people hold their whole rotation together in chaotic fights and I should just L2P, or is this a common problem that I'm just not seeing the solution to?"
On sapph, I try and get as many bleeds on him before he gets up and try and get as many CPs before he goes up. That way I can hit SR while I'm running in and start the rake->mangle->shred rotation to a rip quickly. Another good thing is to berserk at this point, sicne you'll have a ton of energy, TF is likely going to be up and you should have close to a 5p SR.
Basically, on any fight where you can't DPS for whatever reason bleeds become a lot more important than basic attacks, so maximize them whenever you can.
Sapphiron holds a special place in my heart as a kitty. We have significant advantages over other classes as follows; Feral Swiftness means we can spend more time attacking while he's in the air before running behind a block, Feral Charge gets us back to him first, NI and PI mean we don't ever need to wear Frost Resist. The 1 min cycle of his phases works well with our TF timing, combined with FS and FC the uptime of our debuffs is hardly affected.
with best in slot items, i've obtained those average value for cat dps (6 min fight, full raid buffed, no manglebot):
the value are from a direct simulation. I'm using a priority list:
keep sr up (1+ cp)
keep mangle up
keep rake up
keep rip up (5 cp)
use FB if you can
use shred with ooc proc
The cycle also micro-manage energy depending on cd and debuff counters.
On a side note i've modelled a 100ms latency into the simulation.
Temporary buff like bloodlust are NOT averaged out but used directly.
The choce between FB or waiting for rip to expire is done with an algoritm that try to pre-calculate the best dps. Obviosly taking enough energy to keep sr up is prioritary.
Aggressive Stats after all the buffs
_______________________
Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.4% added)): 50.6579%
Cat (AP): 10831
Expertise: 25
Hit: 7.01434%
Armor Penetration: 11.1722%
Haste (from equipment): 8.20372%
Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 13083
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 7015.62
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 31.5335%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 25%
Missed % (Total): 0%
Dodged %: 0.25%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
_____________________________________
DPS: 5238.53
White cat: 1909.68, Yellow cat: 3331.06
White: 36.4391% (SR: 26.2028%)
Mangle: 4.25179% (SR: 21.9292%, Avg dmg: 4163.54, #/cycle: 1.40125), Shred: 26.6213% (SR: 19.2188%, Avg dmg: 6987.7, #/cycle: 5.22757), RIP: 12.2391% (SR: 16.7609%, Avg dmg: 17366.2, #/cycle: 0.967054)
Rake: 12.7866% (SR: 18.7485%, Avg dmg: 7652.72, #/cycle: 2.29268), Ferocious Bite: 7.66216% (SR: 30.6159%, Avg dmg: 14544.7, #/cycle: 0.722857, Average Energy Usage: 38)
SR Total Value: 22.3913%, (RIP Value without SR)/(SR Value): 45.4987%, Savage Roar uptime: 96.8816%
Here the stats value (i'm taking large deviation of stats, like 0-to cap for capped stats or 1000 ap, 500 crit, things like that, because i'm interested in scaling, not pointwise gear choce):
AP 10
Feral AP 12
Agility 22
Strengh 23
Crit 15 (after FB soft cap)
Haste 15
Hit 34
Expertise 34
Armor Pen 20
Looking at this table I'll say:
cap hit
cap expertise
go for crit soft cap with agility (54.8% from char sheet raid buffed)
the start stacking str.
For ppl interested in dps scaling, from my sim 1 agility = 1 dps, or using points: 22 points = 1 dps
Last edited by nightcrowler : 02/17/09 at 12:12 PM.
I'm having severe problems justifying Hit/Expertise cap when only a couple points under. When the minimum change you can make is in factors of 8, needing 4 more expertise and 6 more hit really doesn't justify switching a 16 str gem for an 8 exp/8 hit gem. Your numbers, Rawr, and Toskk all seem to agree on this point, just barely though, the crossover seems to be needing 11 exp+hit rating.
Using normal priority cycle and ability (keep sr up, keep rake up, keep rip up, keep mangle up, use shred for cp, use FB when you can): 5239
Manglebot (keep sr up, keep rake up, keep rip up, mangle is keep by another player, use shred for cp, use FB when you can): 5322
Mangle-spam(keep sr up, keep rake up, keep rip up, keep mangle up, use mangle for cp, use FB when you can): 4599
No Ferocious Bite: 5131
No Rake: 5010.
What you should note is that mangle-spam will make you lose a lot of dps. But other options no.
The difference in having a mangle-bot, using or not using FB, using or not using rake is minimal (4-5%), over a 6 min fight you can easly have a 10% variance due to lucky RNG.
As for the number of CP for SR, I've used a "when it's down refresh it, without looking at how many CP you have", and it's the best strategy. If you use a fixed strategy you will lose 20-50 dps depending on the number of cp you fix. Marginal.
So I must agree with Ghostcrowler when he say that Cat cycle is one of (if not the) most difficult dps cycle in WoW, but it's also pretty stable, if you mess up something you'll not end losing a lot of dps, this also mean that is pretty much adaptable to different situation.
As for ht/exp cap: As I said the numbers are taken for large deviation (0 to cap for hit and expertise), 500 stats for other stats. This mean that we are seeing a large scale scaling.
Other simulations that I have done previosly show that nevertheless hit and expertise scales pretty lineary (going from 0 to 100 or from 100 to 200 hit is about the same relative dps increase).
Obsiovly you don't want to "over-cap" those stats! if hit value is 34 and strenght value is 23. 2 str > 1 hit, so for example if you need 4 hit to reach the cap it's better to gem for str instead of hit and then overcap it.
Last edited by nightcrowler : 02/15/09 at 2:48 PM.
Ah, I think I made a wrong definition. For me, a Manglespam-Druid is:
1) Keep Roar, Rake, Rip, FFF up
2) use (Improved)Mangle to generate Combo Points
I suppose that is what you would describe as a Manglebot.
I'm working on Facemauler, trying to tweak the recommendation engine it uses, and I'm wondering if I could get some advice. I have listed the psuedo code for it below. So far I haven't figured out the best place to use FB without letting Rip or SR drop; every time I try one of them ends up stopping. With this list (SR at 3+, keep rake, rip, and mangle up), it keeps a very high uptime. It tries to keep your energy level high enough so that you can do rake / mangle at any time. Any suggestions?
if Tiger's Fury is ready and energy < 30 and berserk isn't active then "Tiger's Fury"
if is ready and energy > 75 then "Berserk"
if SR will end before rip and CP >= 3 then "Savage Roar"
if SR is down and CP >= 1 then "Savage Roar"
if rip is down and CP == 5 then "Rip"
if Mangle is down and trauma is down then "Mangle"
if Rake is down then "Rake"
if TF is about to come off of cooldown (2 second or less) and energy > 30 and berserk isn't active then return "Shred"
if energy >= 67 or (berserk is active and energy >= 33 ) or ooc is active then "Shred"
if faerie fire is down then "Faerie Fire"
Long time lurker, first post... bear with me here .
Now, not knowing ANYTHING of the logic format for facemaulter, I would think that you *might* be able to use the following logic to fit in FB (based on some of the above comments)
if SR 10+ seconds from cooldown AND Rip is 10+ seconds from cooldown AND CP == 5 then Ferocious Bite
Again, this is just a guess based on one of the previous comments made where FB fits well into a rotation where both SR and Rip have 10+ seconds of up time left...
I plan to pull down facemauler myself this afternoon to test out the above. I would love to continue to tighten up my rotations, which are still more choppy than I like.
I'm working on Facemauler, trying to tweak the recommendation engine it uses, and I'm wondering if I could get some advice. I have listed the psuedo code for it below. So far I haven't figured out the best place to use FB without letting Rip or SR drop; every time I try one of them ends up stopping. With this list (SR at 3+, keep rake, rip, and mangle up), it keeps a very high uptime. It tries to keep your energy level high enough so that you can do rake / mangle at any time. Any suggestions?
If you are trying to fit FB into a rotation, you will never have full Rip uptime. It is a trade-off. Unless you have insane crit you need to have a 5 point SR running. So, you would need to change the SR at CP >= 3 check. It would require checks against both time remaining on Rip and time remaining on previous SR. Basically, it is a decision between using FB or refreshing SR early depending on bad luck with crits/OoC. The numbers need tweaking, but something like:
if SR has less than 6s and CP >= 1, use SR (to get it up)
if SR has more than 10s, Rip is down, and CP == 5, use Rip
if SR has more than 10s, Rip is up, and CP == 5, use FB (possibly another checking CP >= 4)
if SR has less than 10s and CP == 5, use SR
Also, if the decision is to not use an ability, you probably want to just always try and refresh Faerie Fire (or at least make it conditional on duration left).
Good point on refreshing FFF if your just waiting. I put in a check to do that. I've tried using SR at 5 CP as a setting, but I find myself wasting most of the SR most of the time, and I end up having rip drop. I tried the suggestion to only use FB when SR > 10 and rip > 10, your at 5 cp, and it seems to hit that condition every time you come out of Berserk, even with SR at 3CP. I have modified the rotation to the following to allow for this / to fix a small discrepancy I noticed (sometimes you want to wait for rip to expire rather than continuing to build CP).
if Tiger's Fury is ready and energy < 30 and berserk isn't active then "Tiger's Fury"
if is ready and energy > 75 then "Berserk"
if SR will end before rip and CP >= 3 then "Savage Roar"
if rip is down and CP == 5 then "Rip"
if Mangle is down and trauma is down then "Mangle"
if Rake is down then "Rake"
if ooc is active then shred
if TF is about to come off of cooldown (2 second or less) and energy > 30 and berserk isn't active then return "Shred"
if rip will expire before your energy caps, rip isn't expired yet, and it has less than 10 seconds, then fff if needed or do nothing.
if energy >= 67 or (berserk is active and energy >= 33 ) then "Shred"
if energy <= 40 or (berserk is active and energy <= 20 ) and SR is >= 13 and rip >= 10 and (tf will be ready within 5 second or berserk is active ) and cp == 5 then "Ferocious Bite"
if energy >=62 and rip <=2 and cp < 5 then "shred"
if faerie fire is down then "Faerie Fire"
Good point on refreshing FFF if your just waiting. I put in a check to do that. I've tried using SR at 5 CP as a setting, but I find myself wasting most of the SR most of the time, and I end up having rip drop. I tried the suggestion to only use FB when SR > 10 and rip > 10, your at 5 cp, and it seems to hit that condition every time you come out of Berserk, even with SR at 3CP. I have modified the rotation to the following to allow for this / to fix a small discrepancy I noticed (sometimes you want to wait for rip to expire rather than continuing to build CP).
That's exactly the point... The only way to fit FB into a normal rotation is if you are using 5 point SRs. Any less and you will never have enough time to do all 3 (except after berserk). Using FB is just a trade-off between wasting CPs and Rip uptime. I'd say checking time left on SR is more important than time left on Rip.
"Druids, they are so stupid they can tank better than warriors, out damage rogues, and nuke as well as mages. On top of that they can turn into a mutated seal."
02/13/09, 4:11 AM
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