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Old 01/28/09, 1:24 PM   #421
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by bejean View Post
The only advantage I can think of for saving Berserk for BL/Heroism is that you should get more OOC procs (according to things Toskk has hinted at about the way OOC REALLY works), but being able to get an extra berserk in for the fight is a much bigger DPS increase.
Omen of clarity procs are not amplified by berserk, and getting too many omen of clarity procs during berserk can cause you to be unable to spend all your energy during berserk, which would result in loss of damage. Therefore it is advantageous, if only slightly, to deliberately not use berserk during bloodlust.

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Old 01/28/09, 1:33 PM   #422
vampirehikaru
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Barthilas
I don't really see why there is a need to wait until bloodlust to pop Berserk.

It is already not easy to clear our energy bar (aside from fb) with Berserk up, additional OoC procs from Bloodlust would only likely to result in an increase of difficulty to efficiently clear our energy..

I view Berserk, Bloodlust and haste pots, as ways to use abilities freely or cheaply either due to increased OoC procs or energy cost reduction(berserk). Hence I believe dps would be greater if these 'cheaper ways' to dps are distributed throughout a fight.

I was thinking in order to maximize dps. Would it be optimal for a feral to berserk early, then followed by a haste pot just before Bloodlust, hopefully Berserk should be up once again after Bloodlust.


*edit. The dude above me, managed to summarized what I was trying to say in a much simpler way -_-*

Last edited by vampirehikaru : 01/28/09 at 1:46 PM.

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Old 01/28/09, 1:37 PM   #423
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Mindshift View Post
I feel like I am not getting full potential out of my gear. I have some nice gear, KT25 Staff, 5pc t7 (only 4pc equipped) but something doesnt seem right when I compare myself to other players on patchwerk for instance.

.....

Maybe the good people here can shine some light on my rotation, or tell me if I'm doing all that I can with the current raid setup (which we have no trauma warriors)

I do have max hit rating, armory may not show that but I use food buff for the hit I do need.

Doing a quick look in Rawr, you're not too far off from it's predicted DPS. Also note that Str. food would give you a 25 DPS increase over Hit food. What flask or elixers were you using? Lastly a Warrior keeping Trauma up should increase DPS. Keep that in mind when comparing.

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Old 01/28/09, 7:04 PM   #424
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Has anyone looked into why Rawr and Tossk's site give such wildly different values for stats? Another thing I noticed was that Rawr either undervalues or Tossk overvalues a metagem in a helm. I couldn't find any discussion of these differences here besides the fact that they exist.

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Old 01/29/09, 3:30 AM   #425
Kahcheeta
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
<FFS>
Boulderfist (EU)
@ Valerian:

I don't know how much you have dug yourself into the differences between Toskk and Rawr (Astrylian) before posting here. There are some minor differences, but nothing big. When comparing them it is vital that you enter the correct information in both of them. This has been brought up many times and the differences explained by both Astrylian and Toskk. If you cant find the information in this thread, try looking in the now closed "Feral Druid Megathread" or on the druid wiki pages.

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Old 01/29/09, 4:39 AM   #426
Centarion
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Perenolde (EU)
Originally Posted by vampirehikaru View Post
I don't really see why there is a need to wait until bloodlust to pop Berserk.
Simple: Aggro. Critting several times at the beginning of the fight can put you into a situation where popping Berserk is a bad choice.
So unless you have some kind of Vigilance, waiting for bloodlust can be an important point

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Old 01/29/09, 5:18 AM   #427
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
Boevis's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
Perhaps I've been lucky, my opener has never pulled aggro.
FF on the run in
Mangle - SR - Rake - Shred - TF+Berserk - Shred to 5 - Rip - Shred but reapply Rake - SR - Shred but reapply Mangle - FB
Perhaps using it later in the fight when full sunders, and all the other debuffs are up would provide me more DPS, actually, I'd count on it being more DPS if I were better at my rotation. But this gets me in a groove, it sets up my cycles at a high point, so if I do screw up (and I do fat finger SR instead of FB sometimes) I'm usually only losing downtime on one thing, not 2.

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The other MT in the guild maintains over 6k TPS, in order to outpace them on TPS I need to do over 8.5k DPS. Since we use Misdirect and Tricks of the Trade, they're also going to have a 20k lead on me by the time I get in there. Mind you, I don't use this opener on Patchwerk because the OTs aren't quite as good and I don't feel like taking a hurtful, nor do I use it on Razuvious (well, not anymore) because we get more breaks in the first 30 seconds than in the rest of the fight.

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Old 01/29/09, 12:28 PM   #428
Wintermane
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by Centarion View Post
Simple: Aggro. Critting several times at the beginning of the fight can put you into a situation where popping Berserk is a bad choice.
So unless you have some kind of Vigilance, waiting for bloodlust can be an important point
This is a reason to NOT pop berserk as an immediate opener, however after the first 5-10 seconds of a fight, I've never been able to pull aggro off any of our MTs with berserk (and I've certainly tried for funsies).

That said, I haven't worried too much about berserking during bloodlust because I set my berserks up so that I'll only need to refresh rake in the middle, Rip and SR should be good to go throughout the entire duration, so I'm basically just shred-spamming for 15 seconds. Assuming I berserk at 100 energy, I'm still only able to shred-spam for about 9 seconds before I'm energy-starved, and have to wait for a period longer than the GCD to shred again. So the question in my mind becomes, given a normal or average number of OOC procs during the 15-second berserk, should I be able to shred-spam my way through the whole thing? If yes, that suggests I shouldn't pop it during bloodlust, right? If no, doesn't bloodlust become more advantageous? I'm worried I'm not thinking about this just right, so I'd appreciate additional thoughts on this.

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Old 01/29/09, 3:04 PM   #429
Unity
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
<ten>
Khaz'goroth
There isn't much of an overlap (Berserk only helps your yellow attacks, Bloodlust only helps your white attacks). To the extent that there is it's due to Omen of Clarity and negative - you get the same increased attack speed and hence the same expected number of additional Omen procs from a Bloodlust whether you have Berserk up or not. If you do have Berserk up you are more likely to waste some of those extra Omen procs by not being able to spend all your energy.

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Old 01/29/09, 5:10 PM   #430
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Also, I don't see why one would try to ensure that rip and savage roar do not expire during berserk. It should actually be advantageous to have them expire during berserk, since then they can be refreshed with combo points that would be otherwise wasted.

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Old 01/29/09, 6:04 PM   #431
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Unity View Post
There isn't much of an overlap (Berserk only helps your yellow attacks, Bloodlust only helps your white attacks). To the extent that there is it's due to Omen of Clarity and negative - you get the same increased attack speed and hence the same expected number of additional Omen procs from a Bloodlust whether you have Berserk up or not. If you do have Berserk up you are more likely to waste some of those extra Omen procs by not being able to spend all your energy.
This, I found it counterproductive to save Berserk for Bloodlust for the exact same reason: you wasted a part of berserk even if just 1 OOC proc put you at 100 energy at any given time.

As for actions performed during Berserk, as long as it's your highest DPE move, doubling the DPE will not change their priority. This means that as long as any action put you at 100 energy for any reason, you should be doing your normal priority list.

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Old 01/30/09, 2:47 PM   #432
Odas
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eonar
Has anyone collected any data on dps unbuffed on target dummies? I'd like to have an easier way to compare my current dps to others instead of only a few laggy Patchwerk attempts. Rawr predicted unbuffed I should be at 3276dps and after 10 different 3 min tests (some using fb when opportune, some just aiming for max bleed uptime) I was able to get between 88% and 95% of my predicted dps. How close to others get to their optimal values?

Also, what other cat models exist and do they more accurately model (or simulate) estimated cat dps. I've heard about Toskk's model although I haven't looked him up since TBC, and I seem to remember nightcrowler had a cat sim during the beta, are those up to date?

Edit: Toskk's Model Estimates me at 2964dps unbuffed.

Last edited by Odas : 01/30/09 at 5:03 PM.

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Old 01/30/09, 2:52 PM   #433
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Personally, Rawr was actually on the low end of estimated DPS. Not by a ton, but by a bit. I suspect it undervalues combo point generation from crit; most of the more successful cats I have seen have emphasized crit over strength and found better overall results. This is against real-world mobs and not target dummies.

Toskk is the other main model. I don't personally like it that much; it doesn't value hit/expertise highly enough for my tastes.

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Old 01/31/09, 2:14 PM   #434
bloodcurdler
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Turalyon
First off thanks for all the open discussion for feral druids.

I started reading this thread over again after i found the website Maxdps.com . Many posters here suggest strength gems (vaccine pg16) for kitty gear, but that website suggests all agi gems (even an agi & mana regen gem) for slots. How much value should i put into the maxdps sugestions?

Also, i have been building seperate sets for tanking and dps, but i can't decide where to use my 4pc T7 set? Majority of the time i am dps, other then the first two wings of naxx where we chain pull and for patchwerk. Obviously, my first thought is to use the t7 set for dps, since majority of my time is spent kitty. My confusion arises whenever i look at maxdps, and there are so many pieces rated higher for dps.

Should i post my armory link for further guidance?

Thanks for your time

brotsorrow of turalyon

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Old 01/31/09, 2:39 PM   #435
Aajax
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by bloodcurdler View Post
First off thanks for all the open discussion for feral druids.

I started reading this thread over again after i found the website Maxdps.com . Many posters here suggest strength gems (vaccine pg16) for kitty gear, but that website suggests all agi gems (even an agi & mana regen gem) for slots.How much value should i put into the maxdps sugestions?
none, strength is simply better than agility for your dps. Your T7 gear is already heavy on agility, so you shouldnt have a problem with overall crit% being too low. Simply put, 1 STR= 2 AP and 1 AGI= 1 AP. Gemm for hit if you need it, strength if your capped. This is my philosophy.

Under no circumstances should you gem feral gear for mana regen.

I assume maxdps.com has not updated their values for WOTLK, as strength is now irrefutably superior to agility for dps.

My suggestion is to stop using maxdps.com and and download Rawr

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