Monedula

As Shred does 742 damage according to the tooltip and no 203 extra damage was taken into the calculation, the answer is no.
However your "only shred idol" is not completely true.
[Idol of the White Stag]
Drops in BT and does increase AP by 94 for everything. I don't know how much this "mangle idol" is worse (it is 59 item levels lower) but a virtually constant 94 more AP does count for something.
Again hard to calculate this one. Should be simulated to get the best results.

 

Sistra

I'm impressed with the thoroughness of every aspects in this (and other) post. But it’s annoying to see the presumptions that are used about the players items.
If the cleaver people could restrict themselves to list assumptions about AP, Crit and hitratings, theise calculations and conclusions would be useful to so many more players.
I don’t have 2xT6 items to use, and I never will have. So weather or not mangle is better than shred given those items will remain irrelevant to me – and I guess 90% of the druid player base.
Glyphes can be acquired by anyone. Same goes for badge-items in time, and properly even Nax gear. But using pre-WotLK über items in the calculations, makes the fine work pretty irrelevant for most people.

Don’t get me wrong! I’m grateful for the work you are doing and the knowledge you are sharing.

 

Spherus

These forums, in most cases, are all about min-maxing. Unfortunately this means that if items from old raid instances are still the current top-end, people are going to use them in their modeling (and to be honest, if it turns out there is a substantial advantage to certain pieces of TBC gear, and in particular set pieces, it really isn't that hard to pull together 10-15 80s and go plow the old content - achievements can be a great enticement!)

 

Humbaba

I vaguely recall some set bonuses getting changed from vanilla to TBC. It wouldn't be terribly surprising to see 2t6 get changed.

 

Raqtor

This topic is getting a bit confusing. A lot of good opinions and calculations. I would like to try to make a post that would help other people to better make their own opinion and conclusion.
I use "DPE" as a short for how much damage you get from one energy and I use the word "rotation" even though cat DPS has no "rotation". Just can not find a better word for it.
First of this is the self buffed numbers I used to calculate ability damage:

Weapon damage: 889,69 (calculated non critical average)
Attack Power: 10552
Crit chance: 38,22%

Yes these numbers are quite low since most of my gear is gemmed and enchanted for tanking.
I used This quick excel document to reach the calculated results. Feel free to use, abuse, change it and to find errors in my math. Blue values are pure values you can change to fit your stats/spec and the other values are calculated with a formula and not quite as simple to change.

First issue goes to combo point building attack. Results are calculated with the most important talents and [Idol of the Ravenous Beast] equipped.

Ability:	Damage:	Cost:	DPE:
Rake	5991,27	35	171,18
Shred	6705,36	42	159,65
Mangle	4224,58	34	124,25

Now here Rake might not look as powerful as everyone says. But remember these are calculated values and Rake is 100% guaranteed damage where the others are reduced by armor. So like everyone else have already told you:
Try to keep up Rake.
In the battle between Shred and Mangle there is a lot to consider.

Pro's for Shred:

1. More DPS
2. More simple finish move rotation
3. Less Ferocious Bite **(see comment below)

Pro's for Mangle:

1. Simple to use
2. It is not a must for you to be behind the target
3. Less talent points needed so its easier to make a good build
4. No more concern about keeping up mangle
5. More Ferocious Bite **(see comment below)

** Why is listed as a pro both when you have to use less or more of them?

Well I can not tell you if its good or not. It gives nice damage which is good but...
It also creates problems like leaving you a 0 energy and such. By reading the next section
I was hoping you could form your own opinion/conclusion to Ferocious Bite in your (rotation)

For finishing moves. Well Savage Roar is such a good buff and it lasts very long per combo point so like everyone else is saying.
Keep up Savage Roar
In the battle between Rip and Ferocious Bite we could start with the numbers.

Ability:	Damage:	Cost:	DPE:
Rip	15180,88	30	506,03
Ferocious Bite	13888,61	35	396,82

Rip is calculated with [Glyph of Rip] and 2/5 Tier 7 set bonus. If you are going to use rip you will have the glyph and I selected to calculate 2T7 bonus since Tier7 items are pretty nice and so incredible easy to get. There are many instances that drop loads of tier 7 in both heroic and normal mode. Plus even if you are incredible unlucky with loot you can get 4/5 Tier 7 from emblems alone. Also the calculation were initially for me and I do have Tier 7.
Ferocious Bite calculation are calculated as if the Naturalist talent works on it. There is no way for me to test this but since it does work on rip and rake I just choose to believe that is does work on Ferocious Bite as well.
Also for the numbers shown. Rip is guaranteed damage where Ferocious bite is reduced by armor.

Pro's for Rip:

1. Very high damage.
2. Low energy cost.
3. guaranteed damage on any armor

Con's for Rip:

1. Takes time so is bad on quick dying trash mobs.

Pro's for Ferocious Bite:

1. Instant so is good on quick dying trash mobs.

Con's for Ferocious Bite:

1. Low damage on any armored mob.
2. Leaves you on 0 Energy
3. Before using you have to be sure you don't need to reapply Rake soon.
4. Before using you have to be sure you don't need to reapply Mangle soon.
5. Even though it says 35 energy my average energy cost was 58 last raid. Yes we know you can do better but 35 will never be anyone's average.
6. After using Ferocious Bite your DPS will be lowered for a little while since you cannot do any abilities to do damage or build up combo points.

This post turned out to be a long post after all. It is build from my experiences and calculation so I hope I have not missed some Pro's or Con's. I also hope I have not flavored the Pro's and Con's with my personal opinions. I at least hope this can help someone choose which abilities they would like to use.

 

Silverstorm

Several responses and good discussion here, so I'd like to reply to a few comments people have made:

1) Baggles - Yes, SR at 2-3cp may work out to a smoother rotation that's easier to manage based on CP generation. As I stated in my posts, my work is purely theoretical, and I haven't figured out how practical a 5cp SR is to maintain, or the optimal way to keep SR rolling. It will probably take experience at responding to different crit streaks. What you don't want (I think) is to build up the CP and have to choose what to use (Rip vs. SR). Non-SR Rip is poor at best, but waiting on another 5 CP for Rip isn't good either.

2) Fauxpaw - I did read Monedula's post, and I think his results are correct for the set of axioms/assumptions he chose. However, the differences are crit% (I used 43%, Monedula used 30%), inclusion of Omen of Clarity (I included, Monedula did not), and even AP values (I used 5200 from highend T6, Monedula based on personal AP, which wasn't explicitly stated). All these affect the results of the calculations, even if we both did our math 100% correct.

Based on the CP generated and energy available, I found Shred to work better at 43% crit with OoC. AP should scale evenly, so I think it's negligible enough to discount right now. When I get time, I'll lower the crit percentage used until Mangle doesn't generate extra CP and figure out how well things work. It's entirely possible that the "rotation" is defined by your crit %, which dictates what ratio of Mangle:Shred is optimal. That said, OoC procs should still be Shreds if at all possible due to higher energy cost.

3) Monedula - Not prioritizing DPE is a mistake in my opinion. We deal damage as a direct result of using energy, and we want as much damage per energy as possible. We have a constant rate of energy gain (aside from OoC procs), and that is the limitation we have to overcome. High DPS attacks are meaningless if they are less efficient than a lower DPS attack that provides better DPE. The higher DPS attacks actually normalize themselves because of the energy limitation since you can't execute them as frequently, so I think DPE is the metric to consider.

4) Sistra - If you have any questions at all about my assumptions, please ask. I'm fairly new to the Cat DPS lifestyle, but I did a lot of theorycrafting as a warlock in a prior life! Just to clear things up, I was using a character sheet AP of 5200, crit % of 43%, and hit % wasn't mentioned since it would evenly scale the results up and down. As far as gear goes, I explicitly included a calculation with and without 2t6, since I know some people have it and some (including me) don't.

5) Raqtor - Thanks for your input as well. I should go back and include 2t7 since it is easy to get. I'm not even level 80 yet, so I hadn't considering the ease of obtaining it.

80 Silvertotem - 80 Silverstorm

 

Duilliath

Interesting post, Raqtor.

Just swapped in the 2t6 bonus I'm still running with (didn't include the 4t6), which pumps up Mangle's DPE to 145.68 - rather closer to Shred. The added combo point generation (and the fact that you used a Shred idol) at this particular gear level really seems like a viable alternative. This is especially important to me currently, as I can't for the life of me find a Tank build that includes everything I want with regards to DPS, but I can manage to include Improved Mangle.

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

Windchilla

While the Mangle rotation and build are surely a viable alternative for Bears who wish to occasionally DPS in cat, it is not Superior to a Shred build, especially at higher gear levels. Shred scales better than Mangle and retains a higher DPE, however I can see the appeal of a Mangle rotation as it is much easier to use.

 

Monedula

What exactly is scaling?
2 examples of how I would define scaling; the question is: is either one a correct way to approach scaling and if neither are, what is!?:

It has been said shred scales better, however I don't think so. I think the second definition of scaling is correct, look at the damage done.
So again some math. I used 2 hypothetical values. White hits of 0 and white hits of 1,000,000

0:
Shred
((0 * 2.25) + 742.5) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 1,158.3
Mangle
((0 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 760.8
760.8 / 1158.3 = 65.68%*

1,000,000:
Shred
((1,000,000 * 2.25) + 742.5) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 3,511,158.3
Mangle
((1,000,000 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 2,400,670.8
2400670.8 / 3511158.3 = 68.375%*

You will find all other (more realistic values) to lie in between those 2 values.
The more AP you got, the better mangle becomes.
Note that the percentage has a logarithmic build and an unattainable hypothetical maximum 68.376% (2.25 * 1.3 * 1.2) / (2 * 1.2); meaning at low levels of AP mangle will scale a lot better! 1,000 AP extra at 4,000 AP will do a lot more for mangle then 1,000 AP extra at 8,000 AP.
My conclusion is: Mangle scales better with AP then shred.

Now am I wrong?

* In earlier posts it was about 83%, but that was DPE, not damage as a single hit. Though that scales the same way since the combopoints spent are the same.

PS: The real question is, do Rake, SR and Rip scale the same way. Because it is all about the extra CP generated by the use of Mangle. If at high AP those all loose 5% damage while Mangle gains only 2.6% Shred would be the better choice at more AP because the value of a CP has dropped.

 

kameelyan

I honestly love talking theory here, but now that there are a ton of 80's, lets start seeing some WWS stats or some recount figures. I have to be honest, I've been wondering where everyone else is in terms of DPS in a raid. While I mainly tank (and thus don't have PI for the 10% crit bonus), I'm still able to usually pull out top 3-4 dps (always beat by hunters, usually contested by a warrior/rogue). On fights like Thaddius 25 man, I'm able to pump out about 5200 DPS. Unfortunately, I end up tanking Patchwerk, so I'm unable to determine what my "tank and spank" dps would be. However, I'm definitely interested to hear where everyone else is sitting.

On a side note, I'm not seeing much top end performance from druids off random WWS browsing. I don't see alot using shred, and most aren't even in the top 5 on Patchwerk. I just don't get it.

I Iz teh teechurcat, king of teh Jerusalem. I has studiez n wizdum ovur all lolcatz, n zomg wut hevy berdun Ceiling Cat putz on kittehz. Teechurcat haz see lolrus n cheezburgerz n longcatz n awl dat is st00pidz, lyke chasing aftur tail. Nevr can catch teh tayle and even whn yu doo it hrtz srsly. Ecclesiastes 1:12-14

 

seekerwind

WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I usually do 3.5k-4.5k dps too. This patchwerk attempt I was trying out different rotations so I messed up a bit. I'm also beat by hunters for top dps and 2nd with the rogues and warriors.

 

o_o

One of the most annoying problem with cat dps rotation is it's complexity.
I've found on wowinterface this mod Whack : WoWInterface Downloads : Casting Bars and Cooldowns .
So far it work only for protpala I think it'll be really useful if the author generalize it to somehow support our rotations.

 

Valerian

Emphasis (in bold) mine. 1000 AP will always provide the same DPS increase IN ABSOLUTE TERMS regardless of your current AP levels. Yes it will change how much of a % increase it provides as you increase in AP but thats the same for nearly all dps stats. Absolute damage increase is the simplest metric to use when looking at DPS stats rather than a % based one. Looking at your numbers you'll see that adding 1M AP gave much more absolute damage to shred than it did to Mangle.

Also your two comparisons at 0 AP and 1M AP are really comparing apples and oranges. When AP is low the primary contribution to the moves dps is the fixed values, whereas at high AP the primary contribution comes from the weapon damage/multiplier portion. Imagine for whatever reason Mangle had +1000 damage static portion. At 0 AP it would be doing MORE damage than shred. After I add 1M AP absolutely nothing would change in terms of how much absolute damage I gained. Sure the %s would be different but those %s are not terribly meaningful and worse somewhat confusing.

 

Windchilla

I use Ellipsis and Power Auras and have no issue keeping track of my ability uptime. I'd recommend both of those programs as they're highly flexible and allow for visual and aural uptime indicators.

 

Windchilla

This is a log from our first week of Naxx, I've upgraded my gear substantially since then and I believe I was likely still using 4T6 and a handful of Sunwell items. Since then I've seen closer to 5k on Patchwerk, but unfortunately I've mostly been doing 25 man and end up tanking.

Week One Patchwerk - Feral

 

Raqtor

It is worth considering if the lower energy cost on mangle really makes up for the large loss of damage from wearing old outdated tier 6 gear. Considering that all the better stats are increased 6% by SotF and 10% by blessing of kings. Attack power increased 10% by HotW and 40% by Savage Roar. Also the improved critical chance should be analyzed. When you crit you do not only deal double damage but an additional 10% from Predatory Instincts. Furthermore considering the extra combo points critical abilities give.
Wearing bad gear lowers the damage output of every single ability you use and every white hit you deal. Whatever talent build or "rotation" I have tried white damage have always been my biggest damage dealer. And white damage scales 100% with gear and is the damage that scales best with gear.
There are too many factors to realistically be able to make calculations on this though.

When making a talent spec for mangle spam it is worth considering that it creates more combo points. Especially when you get new gear that improves your critical chance. So in order to be effective you would have to use many Ferocious Bite's. It might then be wise to choose some Ferocious bite talents and the very best Ferocious Bite talent is Rend and Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft.
With those 5 points set you now have 72% of the important talents for a Shred build and only require 2 points in Shredding Attacks.
Yes blizzard is quite skilled at making it hard to make talent builds.

These are some of the considerations I made when finally coming up with this weird Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
What is most important for me is the tanking talents but I still wanted to be a descent damage dealer.

I would be very thankful for any advise on talent improvements.

 

kameelyan

I use debuff filter. The only fundamental problem I have with it is a hunter's cat's rake shows up on the filter for my rake, so I usually have to try and track that myself.

Debuff Filter : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

I Iz teh teechurcat, king of teh Jerusalem. I has studiez n wizdum ovur all lolcatz, n zomg wut hevy berdun Ceiling Cat putz on kittehz. Teechurcat haz see lolrus n cheezburgerz n longcatz n awl dat is st00pidz, lyke chasing aftur tail. Nevr can catch teh tayle and even whn yu doo it hrtz srsly. Ecclesiastes 1:12-14

 

david0925

We talk about 2 piece t6 because it exists; same as the fact that Wolfshead helm (or something like that, a level 40 blue) was talked about so much when powershifting existed. Sure, Wolfshead helm is a bit easier to acquire than 2 piece t6 (although Im pretty sure you can pug sunwell now with ease, especially with people needing the achievements), the fact that the items exist makes it possible as part of the theorycrafting.

Maniq is my hero

 

Inaiwae

I have the same goal, be both viable tank and dps in raids. I created this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and so far i am quite happy with it. The only problem of this build is weaker AoE threat, but i am able to do 5mans with it, and in raids there are other tanks so its not a problem. The ability to tank anything and also be at the top of damage meters just by switching gear is very useful in 25mans.

It has all boss-tanking talents, and almost all damage talents. I skipped Predatory instinct to be able to get Master Shapeshifter. I estimate these talents to be similar in dmg increase, but MS also affects bear, and increased crit makes the rotation smoother. I didnt take Natural Precision, because in cat i am both hit and expertise capped without it, and in bear - my threat is not an issue so far.

In your build i dont understand why you take both shredding attacks and imp. mangle. Also Primal Tenacity does not fit well into PVE build. I'd at suggest to skip mangle and tenacity and take KotJ and Infected Wounds instead (in raids you will often tank without debuffer, and you will need attack speed debuff).

 

kameelyan

Honestly, I can understand why some wouldn't take imp Mangle, but I'm a fan of the reduced 6 energy. It also is a huge threat gain with the lower CD in bear. I can see how you'd do without it, but if you really wanted to maximize your DPS, you should take PI instead of IW. That's 10% increased crit damage, which given your crit rate is probably 45%+ in raids, is a huge damage increase.

I Iz teh teechurcat, king of teh Jerusalem. I has studiez n wizdum ovur all lolcatz, n zomg wut hevy berdun Ceiling Cat putz on kittehz. Teechurcat haz see lolrus n cheezburgerz n longcatz n awl dat is st00pidz, lyke chasing aftur tail. Nevr can catch teh tayle and even whn yu doo it hrtz srsly. Ecclesiastes 1:12-14

 

Monedula

You made your point. Let me rephrase:
1,000 AP extra at 4,000 AP will do a lot more for mangle vs Shred then 1,000 AP extra at 8,000 AP.

I think it is unfortunate you didn't get that since the whole point of the post was on Mange vs Shred.

So judging from your answer, can I make the next conclusion:
Both definitions in my earlier post on scaling were correct!

The term "scaling" means what does the ability do when your stats (AP) increase.
Shred does more damage per AP then Mangle does. Thus Shred scales better.

However, when there is a discussion on one spell/ability vs an other (in this example: Mangle vs Shred) the above definition of scaling is something that is absolutely worthless to take into the discussion. You will have to define a new scaling. It is no longer: "How does Shred scale with more AP" & "How does Mangle scale with more AP"...
... the only valid question in that discussion is "How does Mangle scale vs shred with more AP".

So when talking about "scaling" be sure to use the correct definition of scaling depending on the topic/point you are trying to make.

Is that correct?
And then is this statement correct?: "On the discussion Mangle vs Shred: Mangle scales better."

PS: on 0 and 1M AP... That was my whole point! At low AP the basic damage has a higher influence then at high AP. And since that basic damage is lower for Mangle, Mangle will become better vs Shred when that basic damage becomes less and less valid. I can't understand how you can call that apples and oranges. AP is the same thing whether it is nothing or it is a whole bunch.

 

Inaiwae

I agree that PI is a loss, but i dont think its worth leaving out IW. If not for anything else then for Sartharion with drakes up, where i am the only one bashing the boss for a long time, and its the hardest encounter currently in game.

As for mangle, i cant find any talent that i'd give up for imp. mangle. For bear it would mean just slight dps increase as threat is not an issue. For cat the dps increase would be also very small, given that you mangle once per 18 seconds.

 

Valerian

I can't see how the supposed second type of scaling is in any way useful. I'm at X value of AP. I determine how much damage per energy mangle does and how much damage per energy shred does. I then increase my AP to X + Y. I check the same thing. I can then determine which is doing more damage. This is exactly the type of scaling that we generally look at.

Seeing that mangle is doing 65% of Shred's damage at one point and 68% at another doesn't seem at all useful. Can you elaborate on how you're using this other, comparative scaling definition? Cause if I use this method and conclude Mangle scales better, it doesn't really tell me I should use mangle since I still do more damage per energy if I use shred. So what can I take from this conclusion?

 

Silverstorm

Monedula,

I think your math is correct, and if you're comparing the two abilities relatively, Mangle does gain on Shred slightly early on. However, the asymptote (not logarithm) is approached very rapidly, even when looking at "reasonable" AP of 10-20k. Furthermore, in terms of DPE (which is our measure of efficiency), Mangle's DPE also becomes a larger percentage of Shred's DPE as AP scales up (with the same asymptote), but in absolute terms Shred continues to pull away. Since an asymptote exists, and Mangle never actually catches Shred, the relative values don't mean much. Good work on discovering that, though. It's nice to know we don't have to worry about a point where we switch from Shred to Mangle.

If Mangle scaled better than Shred without an asymptote, meaning it would actually pass Shred at some point, then we'd certainly be much more interested. Since it doesn't, I think Mangle vs. Shred has been sufficiently analyzed.

One of the theories I had earlier was that Mangle is better at lower crit percentages, and Shred becomes better as your crit percentage increases. After further mathing on my spreadsheet, I think this is correct.

Using my earlier formulas, the Shred "rotation" (remember, that was purely theoretical) evens itself out at 43% crit. The Mangle "rotation" even itself out about 34.5% crit. Since you need more attacks to generate 5 CP with a lower crit percentage, you want something that's more CPPE (combo points per energy), which Mangle provides. All of that is AP-independent, since crit and AP do not affect each other.

The other thing to keep in mind is we still don't have a reliable practical rotation, since we're so reactive to CP and debuff timers. I think the next thing to look at is the effects of letting Rip, Rake, and SR drop in various situations and determining more clear priorities. Obviously DPE gives the overall priorities, but if I have 4 CP toward a Rip and SR drops, do I Mangle or Shred for the 5th CP and then Rip w/o SR? Or do I Rip at 2-3 CP because I know SR is going to drop? Or do I use SR and build up for a Rip as the next finisher? Or do I hit SR at the 2-3 CP point, and have some downtime on Rip while I get another 5 CP?

80 Silvertotem - 80 Silverstorm

 

Windchilla

Good post Racionen, the first time in my life I'm glad I know what an asymptote is...

I can see how folks would desire Mangle to outpace Shred, but if you're going for maximum DPS Shred will always butter your bread. I'm sitting at around 46% crit and 11000 AP raidbuffed and I'm seeing some pretty spectacular numbers out of Shred, especially with all the synergy it has with talents.