Cat DPS Rotation - Page 37

Sadirin · 02/15/09, 11:02 AM

Ah, I think I made a wrong definition. For me, a Manglespam-Druid is:
1) Keep Roar, Rake, Rip, FFF up
2) use (Improved)Mangle to generate Combo Points
I suppose that is what you would describe as a Manglebot.

But thanks anyway.

Duilliath · 02/15/09, 11:41 AM

No.

Manglebot means you can skip Mangle from your rotation, as either an Arms Warrior or another Druid is keeping the debuff up.

nightcrowler · 02/15/09, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Ah, I think I made a wrong definition. For me, a Manglespam-Druid..

Clarified in my previous post.

Yukizawa · 02/16/09, 11:00 AM

I'm working on Facemauler, trying to tweak the recommendation engine it uses, and I'm wondering if I could get some advice. I have listed the psuedo code for it below. So far I haven't figured out the best place to use FB without letting Rip or SR drop; every time I try one of them ends up stopping. With this list (SR at 3+, keep rake, rip, and mangle up), it keeps a very high uptime. It tries to keep your energy level high enough so that you can do rake / mangle at any time. Any suggestions?

	if Tiger's Fury is ready and energy < 30 and berserk isn't active then "Tiger's Fury"	
	if is ready and energy > 75 then "Berserk"
	if SR will end before rip and CP >= 3 then "Savage Roar"
	if SR is down and CP >= 1 then "Savage Roar"
	if rip is down and CP == 5 then "Rip"
	if Mangle is down and trauma is down then "Mangle"
	if Rake is down then "Rake"
	if TF is about to come off of cooldown (2 second or less) and energy > 30 and berserk isn't active then return "Shred"
	if energy >= 67 or (berserk is active and energy >= 33 ) or ooc is active then "Shred"
	if faerie fire is down then "Faerie Fire"

Turdragin · 02/16/09, 4:20 PM

Long time lurker, first post... bear with me here

.

Now, not knowing ANYTHING of the logic format for facemaulter, I would think that you *might* be able to use the following logic to fit in FB (based on some of the above comments)

if SR 10+ seconds from cooldown AND Rip is 10+ seconds from cooldown AND CP == 5 then Ferocious Bite

Again, this is just a guess based on one of the previous comments made where FB fits well into a rotation where both SR and Rip have 10+ seconds of up time left...

I plan to pull down facemauler myself this afternoon to test out the above. I would love to continue to tighten up my rotations, which are still more choppy than I like.

Mijae · 02/16/09, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Yukizawa

I'm working on Facemauler, trying to tweak the recommendation engine it uses, and I'm wondering if I could get some advice. I have listed the psuedo code for it below. So far I haven't figured out the best place to use FB without letting Rip or SR drop; every time I try one of them ends up stopping. With this list (SR at 3+, keep rake, rip, and mangle up), it keeps a very high uptime. It tries to keep your energy level high enough so that you can do rake / mangle at any time. Any suggestions?

If you are trying to fit FB into a rotation, you will never have full Rip uptime. It is a trade-off. Unless you have insane crit you need to have a 5 point SR running. So, you would need to change the SR at CP >= 3 check. It would require checks against both time remaining on Rip and time remaining on previous SR. Basically, it is a decision between using FB or refreshing SR early depending on bad luck with crits/OoC. The numbers need tweaking, but something like:

if SR has less than 6s and CP >= 1, use SR (to get it up)
if SR has more than 10s, Rip is down, and CP == 5, use Rip
if SR has more than 10s, Rip is up, and CP == 5, use FB (possibly another checking CP >= 4)
if SR has less than 10s and CP == 5, use SR

Also, if the decision is to not use an ability, you probably want to just always try and refresh Faerie Fire (or at least make it conditional on duration left).

Yukizawa · 02/16/09, 7:14 PM

Good point on refreshing FFF if your just waiting. I put in a check to do that. I've tried using SR at 5 CP as a setting, but I find myself wasting most of the SR most of the time, and I end up having rip drop. I tried the suggestion to only use FB when SR > 10 and rip > 10, your at 5 cp, and it seems to hit that condition every time you come out of Berserk, even with SR at 3CP. I have modified the rotation to the following to allow for this / to fix a small discrepancy I noticed (sometimes you want to wait for rip to expire rather than continuing to build CP).

	if Tiger's Fury is ready and energy < 30 and berserk isn't active then "Tiger's Fury"	
	if is ready and energy > 75 then "Berserk"
	if SR will end before rip and CP >= 3 then "Savage Roar"
	if rip is down and CP == 5 then "Rip"
	if Mangle is down and trauma is down then "Mangle"
	if Rake is down then "Rake"
	if ooc is active then shred
	if TF is about to come off of cooldown (2 second or less) and energy > 30 and berserk isn't active then return "Shred"
	if rip will expire before your energy caps, rip isn't expired yet, and it has less than 10 seconds, then fff if needed or do nothing.
	if energy >= 67 or (berserk is active and energy >= 33 ) then "Shred"
	if energy <= 40 or (berserk is active and energy <= 20 ) and SR is >= 13 and rip >= 10 and (tf will be ready within 5 second or berserk is active ) and cp == 5 then "Ferocious Bite"
	if energy >=62 and rip <=2 and cp < 5 then "shred"
	if faerie fire is down then "Faerie Fire"

Mijae · 02/16/09, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Yukizawa

Good point on refreshing FFF if your just waiting. I put in a check to do that. I've tried using SR at 5 CP as a setting, but I find myself wasting most of the SR most of the time, and I end up having rip drop. I tried the suggestion to only use FB when SR > 10 and rip > 10, your at 5 cp, and it seems to hit that condition every time you come out of Berserk, even with SR at 3CP. I have modified the rotation to the following to allow for this / to fix a small discrepancy I noticed (sometimes you want to wait for rip to expire rather than continuing to build CP).

That's exactly the point... The only way to fit FB into a normal rotation is if you are using 5 point SRs. Any less and you will never have enough time to do all 3 (except after berserk). Using FB is just a trade-off between wasting CPs and Rip uptime. I'd say checking time left on SR is more important than time left on Rip.

Acearan · 02/17/09, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Ferocious Bite vs RIP, mob IS BLEEDING

Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 18, RIPvsFB: 157
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 16, RIPvsFB: 137
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 14, RIPvsFB: 116
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 12, RIPvsFB: 96
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 10, RIPvsFB: 75
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 8, RIPvsFB: 55
Use RIP, ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 6, RIPvsFB: 34
Use RIP, ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 4, RIPvsFB: 14
Use RIP, ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 2, RIPvsFB: -6
Use RIP, ticks: 10, Rip debuff counter: 0, RIPvsFB: -26

Soo I'm a little confused, what does this mean?

nightcrowler · 02/17/09, 1:35 AM

Ths you should use FB if you have more tha 6 seconds left on rip.

Stejo · 02/17/09, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Ferocious Bite vs RIP, mob IS BLEEDING

Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 18, RIPvsFB: 157
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 16, RIPvsFB: 137
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 14, RIPvsFB: 116
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 12, RIPvsFB: 96
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 10, RIPvsFB: 75
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 8, RIPvsFB: 55
Use RIP, ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 6, RIPvsFB: 34
Use RIP, ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 4, RIPvsFB: 14
Use RIP, ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 2, RIPvsFB: -6
Use RIP, ticks: 10, Rip debuff counter: 0, RIPvsFB: -26

Ferocious Bite vs RIP, mob is NOT BLEEDING

Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 18, RIPvsFB: 157
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 16, RIPvsFB: 137
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 14, RIPvsFB: 116
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 12, RIPvsFB: 96
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 10, RIPvsFB: 75
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 8, RIPvsFB: 55
Use RIP, ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 6, RIPvsFB: 34
Use RIP, ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 4, RIPvsFB: 14
Use RIP, ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 2, RIPvsFB: -6
Use RIP, ticks: 10, Rip debuff counter: 0, RIPvsFB: -26

I'll have to ask for clarification on those numbers as well.

Why are the two lists identical? (bleeding and not bleeding)
What exactly you mean by not bleeding when you're evaluating rip ticks?
What does the RIPvsFB number at the end of each line represent?

nightcrowler · 02/17/09, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Stejo

I'll have to ask for clarification on those numbers as well.

Why are the two lists identical? (bleeding and not bleeding)
What exactly you mean by not bleeding when you're evaluating rip ticks?
What does the RIPvsFB number at the end of each line represent?

The 2 list are identical for copy and past error. Sorry for it. Look only at "mob is bleeding" the other is unusefull due to old code not removed.

RIPvsFB is the energy thresold at wich FB is Better than RIP. It rapresent the maximum energy usage to make FB more effective than RIP (considering GCD time spend, using shred while waiting rip to expire, and so on). For RIPvsFB < 35, Rip is always better. For RIP vs FB >35 FB is better if you have less than RIPvsFB energy (with the last change is basically always better).

EDIT: Original post changed accordingly.

Allev · 02/17/09, 1:01 PM

Nightcrowler, I think it's only fair to compare mangle spam when wearing 2t6. The DPE becomes similar to shred in that case, so you should see a much smaller DPS drop. Obviously, though, you're taking a stat hit with that change. Otherwise, very useful info, thanks for putting it together. One question I have is: does this simulator have an output of what typical cycles looklike? At a minimum, ratio of rips to FBs; more ideally, something like average SR after a FB. I ask because I'm thinking of an alternating cycle of 5SR/5Rip/5FB and xSR/5Rip, which should keep pretty good uptime for Rip. It also allows a quick-bailout if you get unlucky on crits/OoCs to bail out to a 5SR/5Rip/5SR/5Rip/5FB.

Yukizawa, I think a "wait for energy" state may be applicable in this SR/FB discussion. If you have 10 seconds on rip and 15 on SR, but are at 40 energy, you can get away with waiting a good 5 seconds to refresh your rip. In which case, you might be better off shredding or raking and then refreshing your rip, and wasting a CP.

jonny · 02/17/09, 1:22 PM

I've been playing about with Facemauler on the heroic dummy this afternoon and it's pretty good. Following it's suggested rotation I've been able to get within 70dps of RAWRs suggested dps for a custom rotation of 3 point roars & no bites. I do have a couple of comments though.

Firstly if FFF is on cooldown it is still telling me to apply it. The second is that sometimes the suggested move changes just as the GCD ends. For example it will be telling me to Rip, the GCD sweeps around and within that time Mangle drops off and the suggested move suddenly changes to Mangle. I'm noticing this swap too late and have already hit Rake and so lost mangle uptime. It seems like it should be possible to take the GCD into account to avoid this.

Yukizawa · 02/17/09, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by jonny

I've been playing about with Facemauler on the heroic dummy this afternoon and it's pretty good. Following it's suggested rotation I've been able to get within 70dps of RAWRs suggested dps for a custom rotation of 3 point roars & no bites. I do have a couple of comments though.

Firstly if FFF is on cooldown it is still telling me to apply it. The second is that sometimes the suggested move changes just as the GCD ends. For example it will be telling me to Rip, the GCD sweeps around and within that time Mangle drops off and the suggested move suddenly changes to Mangle. I'm noticing this swap too late and have already hit Rake and so lost mangle uptime. It seems like it should be possible to take the GCD into account to avoid this.

For the FFF issue, were you using 0.9a or 0.9d (the latest)? It used to tell you to use FFF as it's wait for energy state, even if it was on CD. I don't think I'm checking to see if it's on CD right now, as it only suggests it when it's about to expire, although I suppose resists could be an issue.

For the sudden change issue, I know what you mean. I am going to work on a fix for that tonight. I think I can do it by limiting how often it changes / looking at debuff states one second in the future.

@Allev If you have 10 seconds left on rip, 15 seconds left on SR, 5cp, and 40 energy, isn't that the correct point to FB? That seems to be what nightcrowler is suggest with his formulas, possibly even with slightly more energy if you have long enough on rip.

I think I need to make an option to choose the number of SR combo points, to make it easier to test different rotations. I know most of what I've read suggest 5 point SRs, but I can't figure out why. The spreadsheets / testing I've done show me dropping rip more with 5 point SRs, or refreshing it signficantly early every time. Is that a function of crit level?