Cat DPS Rotation - Page 4

Monedula · 12/04/08, 6:29 PM

While reading more into this thread I though of an other way to calculate Shred vs Mangle (energy available, duration and cooldowns taken into the picture). Edited this in my earlier post:
Cat DPS Rotation

Same conclusion, Shred only when you have too much energy.

Fauxpаw · 12/05/08, 3:58 AM

Monedula, I don't get where your conclusion comes from at all. You show that Shred and Mangle have roughly the same scaling AND Shred has higher DPE. Then you somehow jump to the conclusion "mangle is still better" but don't really show why.

Guys, it's quite depressing that you don't read each others posts. We actually have 2 contradicting "napkin math" results, one states Shred is better, the other that Mangle is. Now both calculations ignore or exaggerate "extra CP" from mangle and both could be right/wrong about it, which again leaves "Shred or Mangle" question unanswered.

Monedula · 12/05/08, 4:41 AM

I read the other post and decided to do my own dps calculations.
With more AP it seems Mangle and Shred scale about the same. The thing about my post is that I don't look at DPE at all. I mentioned that mangle is not as bad as it seems (vs shred on DPE alone) because mangle generates more CP. Thus they are closer together then the math shows. Hard to define is, how much CP is 8 energy saved? And how much damage is 8 energy?

Looking at the problem form a CP perspective I did some math. That math shows at a 5CP Savage Roar there is not enough energy to generate the CP needed. With a shorter lasting Savage Roar it shows you have even less energy. There is no good way to get the needed CP to keep every debuff up at all times.

I know there is a lot more info you can put into the calculation.
A higher crit change, Omen of Clarity procs etc. Those would be in favor the use of Shred. The fact that a crit at 4CP only generates 1 CP (not in this equation) would favor mangle more.
In any case there is the following comparison left: If you do shred instead of mangle you got less uptime of rip, rake and savage roar. The questions are: What is the best to postpone if you don't have the energy if you have to make a choice. And does using more energy because of shred give more dps while there is less uptime of the debuffs.

The thing about this theorycrafting is that there is no real good way to calculate it all. Like the question: At 5 CP with Rip and SR up, would you prefer to renew Rake or not?
The best way to calculate what does the most dps is to make a program in which you can manually enter priorities of your special abilities, add crit change, hit values, etc. You can even calculate in a factor that a ability mightnot be used at the millisecond it is ready but that there is a variable wait time of 0.1 to 0.5 seconds before the ability is used. Run the model 1000 times and then make a different model and run that 1000 times. Generate statistics on energy used, dps done, CP generated, idle downtime, etc.
That would be the best way to see which is the best.

Any volunteer?

[edit]
I read through my previous post and realized what you said about not mentioning that Mangle generates more CP is true. I am a bit wondered about that because THAT was my reason for mentioning Mangle was not as bad then when looking at DPE alone.
You are right, I missed that, though I was very well aware of it, edited it now.

Fauxpаw · 12/05/08, 5:01 AM

I read through my previous post and realized what you said about not mentioning that Mangle generates more CP is true. I am a bit wondered about that because THAT was my reason for mentioning Mangle was not as bad then when looking at DPE alone.
You are right, I missed that, though I was very well aware of it, edited it now.

Not sure that I understand you, but my point was: just the fact that mangle generates more CPs is not enough, since you still don't know if you could effectively use those extra CPs from mangle spam to improve your DPS over shred spam.

The thing about this theorycrafting is that there is no real good way to calculate it all. Like the question: At 5 CP with Rip and SR up, would you prefer to renew Rake or not?
The best way to calculate what does the most dps is to make a program in which you can manually enter priorities of your special abilities, add crit change, hit values, etc. You can even calculate in a factor that a ability mightnot be used at the millisecond it is ready but that there is a variable wait time of 0.1 to 0.5 seconds before the ability is used. Run the model 1000 times and then make a different model and run that 1000 times. Generate statistics on energy used, dps done, CP generated, idle downtime, etc.
That would be the best way to see which is the best.

Yes, That and we also need a program we could trust.

Inaiwae · 12/05/08, 7:01 AM

Do the "mangle is better" posts take into account that we have only shred idol available so far?

Monedula · 12/05/08, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

Do the "mangle is better" posts take into account that we have only shred idol available so far?

As Shred does 742 damage according to the tooltip and no 203 extra damage was taken into the calculation, the answer is no.
However your "only shred idol" is not completely true.
[Idol of the White Stag]
Drops in BT and does increase AP by 94 for everything. I don't know how much this "mangle idol" is worse (it is 59 item levels lower) but a virtually constant 94 more AP does count for something.
Again hard to calculate this one. Should be simulated to get the best results.

Sistra · 12/05/08, 10:24 AM

I'm impressed with the thoroughness of every aspects in this (and other) post. But it’s annoying to see the presumptions that are used about the players items.
If the cleaver people could restrict themselves to list assumptions about AP, Crit and hitratings, theise calculations and conclusions would be useful to so many more players.
I don’t have 2xT6 items to use, and I never will have. So weather or not mangle is better than shred given those items will remain irrelevant to me – and I guess 90% of the druid player base.
Glyphes can be acquired by anyone. Same goes for badge-items in time, and properly even Nax gear. But using pre-WotLK über items in the calculations, makes the fine work pretty irrelevant for most people.

Don’t get me wrong! I’m grateful for the work you are doing and the knowledge you are sharing.

Spherus · 12/05/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sistra

I'm impressed with the thoroughness of every aspects in this (and other) post. But it’s annoying to see the presumptions that are used about the players items.
If the cleaver people could restrict themselves to list assumptions about AP, Crit and hitratings, theise calculations and conclusions would be useful to so many more players.
I don’t have 2xT6 items to use, and I never will have. So weather or not mangle is better than shred given those items will remain irrelevant to me – and I guess 90% of the druid player base.
Glyphes can be acquired by anyone. Same goes for badge-items in time, and properly even Nax gear. But using pre-WotLK über items in the calculations, makes the fine work pretty irrelevant for most people.

These forums, in most cases, are all about min-maxing. Unfortunately this means that if items from old raid instances are still the current top-end, people are going to use them in their modeling (and to be honest, if it turns out there is a substantial advantage to certain pieces of TBC gear, and in particular set pieces, it really isn't that hard to pull together 10-15 80s and go plow the old content - achievements can be a great enticement!)

Humbaba · 12/05/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Spherus

These forums, in most cases, are all about min-maxing. Unfortunately this means that if items from old raid instances are still the current top-end, people are going to use them in their modeling (and to be honest, if it turns out there is a substantial advantage to certain pieces of TBC gear, and in particular set pieces, it really isn't that hard to pull together 10-15 80s and go plow the old content - achievements can be a great enticement!)

I vaguely recall some set bonuses getting changed from vanilla to TBC. It wouldn't be terribly surprising to see 2t6 get changed.

Raqtor · 12/05/08, 12:29 PM

This topic is getting a bit confusing. A lot of good opinions and calculations. I would like to try to make a post that would help other people to better make their own opinion and conclusion.
I use "DPE" as a short for how much damage you get from one energy and I use the word "rotation" even though cat DPS has no "rotation". Just can not find a better word for it.
First of this is the self buffed numbers I used to calculate ability damage:

Weapon damage: 889,69 (calculated non critical average)
Attack Power: 10552
Crit chance: 38,22%

Yes these numbers are quite low since most of my gear is gemmed and enchanted for tanking.
I used This quick excel document to reach the calculated results. Feel free to use, abuse, change it and to find errors in my math. Blue values are pure values you can change to fit your stats/spec and the other values are calculated with a formula and not quite as simple to change.

First issue goes to combo point building attack. Results are calculated with the most important talents and [Idol of the Ravenous Beast] equipped.

Ability:	Damage:	Cost:	DPE:
Rake	5991,27	35	171,18
Shred	6705,36	42	159,65
Mangle	4224,58	34	124,25

Now here Rake might not look as powerful as everyone says. But remember these are calculated values and Rake is 100% guaranteed damage where the others are reduced by armor. So like everyone else have already told you:
Try to keep up Rake.
In the battle between Shred and Mangle there is a lot to consider.

Pro's for Shred:

More DPS
More simple finish move rotation
Less Ferocious Bite **(see comment below)

Pro's for Mangle:

Simple to use
It is not a must for you to be behind the target
Less talent points needed so its easier to make a good build
No more concern about keeping up mangle
More Ferocious Bite **(see comment below)

** Why is listed as a pro both when you have to use less or more of them?

Well I can not tell you if its good or not. It gives nice damage which is good but...
It also creates problems like leaving you a 0 energy and such. By reading the next section
I was hoping you could form your own opinion/conclusion to Ferocious Bite in your (rotation)

For finishing moves. Well Savage Roar is such a good buff and it lasts very long per combo point so like everyone else is saying.
Keep up Savage Roar
In the battle between Rip and Ferocious Bite we could start with the numbers.

Ability:	Damage:	Cost:	DPE:
Rip	15180,88	30	506,03
Ferocious Bite	13888,61	35	396,82

Rip is calculated with [Glyph of Rip] and 2/5 Tier 7 set bonus. If you are going to use rip you will have the glyph and I selected to calculate 2T7 bonus since Tier7 items are pretty nice and so incredible easy to get. There are many instances that drop loads of tier 7 in both heroic and normal mode. Plus even if you are incredible unlucky with loot you can get 4/5 Tier 7 from emblems alone. Also the calculation were initially for me and I do have Tier 7.
Ferocious Bite calculation are calculated as if the Naturalist talent works on it. There is no way for me to test this but since it does work on rip and rake I just choose to believe that is does work on Ferocious Bite as well.
Also for the numbers shown. Rip is guaranteed damage where Ferocious bite is reduced by armor.

Pro's for Rip:

Very high damage.
Low energy cost.
guaranteed damage on any armor

Con's for Rip:

Takes time so is bad on quick dying trash mobs.

Pro's for Ferocious Bite:

Instant so is good on quick dying trash mobs.

Con's for Ferocious Bite:

Low damage on any armored mob.
Leaves you on 0 Energy
Before using you have to be sure you don't need to reapply Rake soon.
Before using you have to be sure you don't need to reapply Mangle soon.
Even though it says 35 energy my average energy cost was 58 last raid. Yes we know you can do better but 35 will never be anyone's average.
After using Ferocious Bite your DPS will be lowered for a little while since you cannot do any abilities to do damage or build up combo points.

This post turned out to be a long post after all. It is build from my experiences and calculation so I hope I have not missed some Pro's or Con's. I also hope I have not flavored the Pro's and Con's with my personal opinions. I at least hope this can help someone choose which abilities they would like to use.

Silverstorm · 12/05/08, 8:38 PM

Several responses and good discussion here, so I'd like to reply to a few comments people have made:

1) Baggles - Yes, SR at 2-3cp may work out to a smoother rotation that's easier to manage based on CP generation. As I stated in my posts, my work is purely theoretical, and I haven't figured out how practical a 5cp SR is to maintain, or the optimal way to keep SR rolling. It will probably take experience at responding to different crit streaks. What you don't want (I think) is to build up the CP and have to choose what to use (Rip vs. SR). Non-SR Rip is poor at best, but waiting on another 5 CP for Rip isn't good either.

2) Fauxpaw - I did read Monedula's post, and I think his results are correct for the set of axioms/assumptions he chose. However, the differences are crit% (I used 43%, Monedula used 30%), inclusion of Omen of Clarity (I included, Monedula did not), and even AP values (I used 5200 from highend T6, Monedula based on personal AP, which wasn't explicitly stated). All these affect the results of the calculations, even if we both did our math 100% correct.

Based on the CP generated and energy available, I found Shred to work better at 43% crit with OoC. AP should scale evenly, so I think it's negligible enough to discount right now. When I get time, I'll lower the crit percentage used until Mangle doesn't generate extra CP and figure out how well things work. It's entirely possible that the "rotation" is defined by your crit %, which dictates what ratio of Mangle:Shred is optimal. That said, OoC procs should still be Shreds if at all possible due to higher energy cost.

3) Monedula - Not prioritizing DPE is a mistake in my opinion. We deal damage as a direct result of using energy, and we want as much damage per energy as possible. We have a constant rate of energy gain (aside from OoC procs), and that is the limitation we have to overcome. High DPS attacks are meaningless if they are less efficient than a lower DPS attack that provides better DPE. The higher DPS attacks actually normalize themselves because of the energy limitation since you can't execute them as frequently, so I think DPE is the metric to consider.

4) Sistra - If you have any questions at all about my assumptions, please ask. I'm fairly new to the Cat DPS lifestyle, but I did a lot of theorycrafting as a warlock in a prior life! Just to clear things up, I was using a character sheet AP of 5200, crit % of 43%, and hit % wasn't mentioned since it would evenly scale the results up and down. As far as gear goes, I explicitly included a calculation with and without 2t6, since I know some people have it and some (including me) don't.

5) Raqtor - Thanks for your input as well. I should go back and include 2t7 since it is easy to get. I'm not even level 80 yet, so I hadn't considering the ease of obtaining it.

Duilliath · 12/06/08, 9:57 AM

Interesting post, Raqtor.

Just swapped in the 2t6 bonus I'm still running with (didn't include the 4t6), which pumps up Mangle's DPE to 145.68 - rather closer to Shred. The added combo point generation (and the fact that you used a Shred idol) at this particular gear level really seems like a viable alternative. This is especially important to me currently, as I can't for the life of me find a Tank build that includes everything I want with regards to DPS, but I can manage to include Improved Mangle.

Windchilla · 12/06/08, 9:44 PM

While the Mangle rotation and build are surely a viable alternative for Bears who wish to occasionally DPS in cat, it is not Superior to a Shred build, especially at higher gear levels. Shred scales better than Mangle and retains a higher DPE, however I can see the appeal of a Mangle rotation as it is much easier to use.

Monedula · 12/06/08, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Windchilla

While the Mangle rotation and build are surely a viable alternative for Bears who wish to occasionally DPS in cat, it is not Superior to a Shred build, especially at higher gear levels. Shred scales better than Mangle and retains a higher DPE, however I can see the appeal of a Mangle rotation as it is much easier to use.

What exactly is scaling?
2 examples of how I would define scaling; the question is: is either one a correct way to approach scaling and if neither are, what is!?:

Higher percentage, thus better scaling?
Definition example:
Mangle: 200% damage, Shred (225% + 1.3 modifier =) 292.5% damage
Because of the higher percentage shred scales better with more AP?

Or should the fact that mangle does less damage not be taken into the calculation,
but rather simply look at different AP values?
Definition example:
At X AP Mangle does Y % damage of shred.
At X + 100 AP Mangle does Y + 0.1% damage of shred.
Does this example mean that mangle scales better with more AP?

It has been said shred scales better, however I don't think so. I think the second definition of scaling is correct, look at the damage done.
So again some math. I used 2 hypothetical values. White hits of 0 and white hits of 1,000,000

0:
Shred
((0 * 2.25) + 742.5) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 1,158.3
Mangle
((0 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 760.8
760.8 / 1158.3 = 65.68%*

1,000,000:
Shred
((1,000,000 * 2.25) + 742.5) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 3,511,158.3
Mangle
((1,000,000 * 2) + 634) * 1.2 = 2,400,670.8
2400670.8 / 3511158.3 = 68.375%*

You will find all other (more realistic values) to lie in between those 2 values.
The more AP you got, the better mangle becomes.
Note that the percentage has a logarithmic build and an unattainable hypothetical maximum 68.376% (2.25 * 1.3 * 1.2) / (2 * 1.2); meaning at low levels of AP mangle will scale a lot better! 1,000 AP extra at 4,000 AP will do a lot more for mangle then 1,000 AP extra at 8,000 AP.
My conclusion is: Mangle scales better with AP then shred.

Now am I wrong?

* In earlier posts it was about 83%, but that was DPE, not damage as a single hit. Though that scales the same way since the combopoints spent are the same.

PS: The real question is, do Rake, SR and Rip scale the same way. Because it is all about the extra CP generated by the use of Mangle. If at high AP those all loose 5% damage while Mangle gains only 2.6% Shred would be the better choice at more AP because the value of a CP has dropped.

kameelyan · 12/07/08, 5:34 AM

I honestly love talking theory here, but now that there are a ton of 80's, lets start seeing some WWS stats or some recount figures. I have to be honest, I've been wondering where everyone else is in terms of DPS in a raid. While I mainly tank (and thus don't have PI for the 10% crit bonus), I'm still able to usually pull out top 3-4 dps (always beat by hunters, usually contested by a warrior/rogue). On fights like Thaddius 25 man, I'm able to pump out about 5200 DPS. Unfortunately, I end up tanking Patchwerk, so I'm unable to determine what my "tank and spank" dps would be. However, I'm definitely interested to hear where everyone else is sitting.

On a side note, I'm not seeing much top end performance from druids off random WWS browsing. I don't see alot using shred, and most aren't even in the top 5 on Patchwerk. I just don't get it.