Are there fights I wish I had 3/3 Siwpe? Sure, Thorim instantly comes to mind, but I also take damage dealt in arena spot 1-3 ( fighting with our Ret Pallies, and DK's ) even with just 1/3 swipe, and we successfully clear it as long as the gauntlet team doesn't hit a snag. Our arena team is fairly balanced and knows their job really well. I simply equip that friendly little [Idol of Perspicacious Attacks] during phase 1 and swap back to shred or rip idols phase 2.
Sorry I didn't catch this earlier.
Now, I haven't tested any ICD on it, but [Idol of the Wastes] Seems like it would be the superior choice for the Thorim Arena. Assuming 3/3.
Assuming that it can't refresh (like [Idol of Arcane Terror]) then it's going to have a 90% uptime if you pool properly.
And a question about Kologarn: I've tried several positions to stand, but no matter what I do, I can't get cat swipe to hit all 3 targets, while in Bear (and for every other class) multi-target attacks work. Has anyone gotten swipe to work on that fight outside of rubble?
I've tanked Kologarn on all of my guilds attempts and am yet to have a problem swiping all 3 targets standing directly in front of and targeting the body.
The Bite/Swipe thing was discussed a lot above me, but I see your build only has 1/2 in Feral Swiftness. I was sure you didn't clear Ulduar without looking at the achievements. The place promotes movement so much that being 15% faster is a huge boon, and I'd consider 2/2 there a must.
I find it really hard to consider anything like movement speed a "must". Clearly these movement based achievements are attainable by people who dont have feral swiftness. It is helpful... but from my perspective, no more helpful than being aware enough of your surroundings to not need it.
My current build (basically a standard 55/16) is one such example. I've been thinking of getting back SI and going 1/3 swipe as well. There aren't many fights where my AoE damage is so important that it must be maximized, and when it is that important it tends to be overtaken by other classes anyway.
Honestly looking at the 55/16 build, I'm not sure what else you could juggle to get 5/5 FA and 3/3 swipe that wouldn't be strictly worse. NS/MS is simply better. Imp Mangle perhaps? If you reliably have a manglebot that's a good place to start.
I agree NS and MS are clearly better... and I have them. I dumped imp lotp and I dont have SI or NI. I generally don't find myself in a position where I am dying before a tank. I guess a lot of your comfort in dumping survival based talents in a pure dps spec depends on your comfort level with your raid healers (either quality or number). If you have a fair amount of comfort I guess it no longer is a question of "is it worth eking out 2% more dps for the risk of dying?" as much as it is "in a pure dps spec why would you not try to maximize your dps?"
It's more valuable as a DPS skill, even if you're perfectly aware and can avoid 100% of damage. Starting your autoattack ASAP increases total damage in a fight more than many DPS talents. This is even true after Feral Charge because of its cooldown, and fights like Ignis/Vezax where you may have to DPS on the move. Running faster than your tank means you don't get caught behind for long stretches of time.
Fights where it's useful:
- Ignis (tank moves the mob)
- Razorscale (running between trash mobs, tank kites Razorscale)
- XT (minimizing damage from light/gravity bombs)
- Iron Council (running between mobs, in/out of AOE)
- Freya (constant running between mobs)
- Hodir (running between flash freezed NPCs)
- Mimiron (damage avoidance, and running back/forth between the head and trash in P3)
- Vezax (tank kiting phase)
- Yogg (increases DPS time in the brain room, etc)
Fights where it's not:
- Kologarn
- Auriaya (if you don't need more speed to dash in/out of damage)
- Thorim (if you don't need more speed to dash in/out of damage)
There's really one stationary fight in all of Ulduar. Movement speed is a huge advantage. Even if it only buys you 3 autoattacks in a 5-minute fight, that's 80 DPS. And it will very often have better returns than that. Plus, free survivability buff.
Edit: I shouldn't do math in the morning, it's not 80 DPS. 3 800-damage attacks per minute is 40 DPS.
On fights where your "tank moves the mob" your movement speed is only relevant if you are out of combat. For instance on razorscale, my tank kites around in a circle running backwards. Do I need movement speed to stay in melee range of the mob? Absolutely not. There's 3 fights where I find the movement speed helpful from a dps perspective: Freya, Iron council and Hodir. When I compare 2 of 2 in movement speed on 3 fights v 1 of 2 in movement speed and full FB dmg on all fights, I lean towards taking the higher ferocious bites. I guess to some degree its simply a matter of preference. Occasionally both dash and feral charge are down and then I certainly lose 1 or 2 seconds of dps time.
Even if it only buys you 3 autoattacks in a 5-minute fight, that's 80 DPS.
While I agree with you, that Movement Speed is very relevant, this calculation seems wrong to me.
80 DPS means 4800 Damage per Minute. That's 24k Damage in a 5-minute-fight. I doubt three autoattacks will do 24k Damage.
Another point favoring Movement speed, besides the boss mechanics: Giving a raid member a battleRezz or an Innervate. In my experience, I need to run quite often towards the raidmember to rez them. Fast movement is very handy in such situations.
And on fights with mechanics such as lightning nova or similar, like Emalon or Brunndir (from the Iron Council), I tend to DPS for one more second compared to other melees. Sometimes this earns me the opportunity to bring my 5-CP rip - this can lead to a lot more damage.
On fights where your "tank moves the mob" your movement speed is only relevant if you are out of combat. For instance on razorscale, my tank kites around in a circle running backwards. Do I need movement speed to stay in melee range of the mob? Absolutely not. There's 3 fights where I find the movement speed helpful from a dps perspective: Freya, Iron council and Hodir. When I compare 2 of 2 in movement speed on 3 fights v 1 of 2 in movement speed and full FB dmg on all fights, I lean towards taking the higher ferocious bites. I guess to some degree its simply a matter of preference. Occasionally both dash and feral charge are down and then I certainly lose 1 or 2 seconds of dps time.
Your tank should be strafing sideways and have run speed on his boots to maximize his survivability by getting out of fire faster. In other words, his failure is making yours not penalize you.
How is Yogg's brain not the ultimate run-speed-is-helpful test? At a minimum you're running across the room and back every portal phase, and the DPS you do in that minute is essential. If you're pulling 4k DPS in the brain room (because buffs aren't up, etc) and you get 3 extra seconds on him, that's another 12k damage.
While we're comparing to a bit more damage than 6 agility, we're also talking about more speed and more damage lost while not attacking. I think most people don't even see how often they're not attacking but go in and count your auto-attacks and compare to your buffed attack speed sometime and you're almost always going to be missing some in any movement fight. Also, people's lists of fights are all missing some movement. Like between the adds on Auriya, back to Auriya after each fear, and jumping in front of her for the aoe screech to help spread the damage, then back. Ignis is probably the most stationary fight and there's still a few seconds of movement after you get slag potted along with a small amount after each scorch though that can be minimized by the tank.
Using the formula from my link and some rawr dps values of 7306 and 7317 ( that's the 1 FA points i have compared with 2 and actually, since rawr decidedly undervalues FB, I'll double the difference and do 7328) and a movement speed increase of 13% (1.3/1.15) I got 1.55 seconds of movement per 1 minute of the fight. While obviously movement that doesn't cut off your damage at all doesn't count, I'm very sure I spend that much time not attacking more often than not.
Any time you can avoid not attacking is a huge dps increase. Things like having a tank that's good enough on threat to enable you to open up right away and use a berserk in the first 5-6 seconds, minimizing run time on target changes through movement speed increases and feral charge, or even just utilizing your cooldowns/consumables appropriately to be able to "ignore" some AoE damage can all give you a huge boost when DPS is a requirement.
In my own spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft), I have dropped 3/3 Feral Instinct and 2/2 Imp LotP in favor of the 5/5 Feral Aggression. I've found that the Imp LotP heal is worth very little, and Ulduar is just not a swipe friendly instance. This allows me to have all the DPS talents, and gives me the movement speed increase, reduced AoE damage taken, and 20% more healing done to me for utility.
There are two key factors to any fight to maximize your dps... your "rotation" and your time spent attacking. Opening up on a target as soon as possible, attacking it as late as possible, switching targets with a minimum amount of time lost, and doing all this while maximizing your use of abilities will net you far more dps than many gear upgrades.
I had quite a bit of time to work on perfecting this last night while doing Iron Council hard mode attempts on 25-man. Due to the flakey internet connections of several of our raiders, we got 20 attempts in last night without a kill, but the fight is a pretty good one to practice the slightly more advanced aspects of feral dps without having to worry about a lot of other stuff going on.
Here are some examples of the things I was working on throughout the fight.
1. Berserk usage - This is pretty easy, the fight lasts 6 minutes, but the real DPS race is on Steelbreaker. Pop berserk early on and then save it for the initial Steelbreaker burn.
2. Maximizing FB usage - This really came down to a "feel" for how quickly I could get combo points up and how all my timers were sitting. This is a lot easier to get down if you DPS most of the time. Knowing when to refresh a SR early, or let my energy bar tick up while waiting to refresh Rip as opposed to using FB is practically an art form, and one of the hardest things to process on the fly. (I just use EventHorizon for timers) Nightcrowlers addon can make this part a bit easier as well, but to truly maximize your dps, you will want to be able to adjust your ability use to account for any possible movement or target switching.
3. Minimizing running time - While DPS'ing Runemaster Molgeim, you will need to run away from Overload. Rather than run straight away from the caster and stop attacking Molgeim, utilize the fact that you have quite a bit of leeway due to your run speed and run with the tank while still DPS'ing. At the end of the cast, just run through and continue to DPS from the front before flipping right back behind him after the cast goes off. Getting a parry or two isn't anywhere near the loss of not DPS'ing for 6-8 seconds. Once you are on Stormcaller Brundir, you won't necessarily be able to stay in and DPS during Overload, but you will have plenty of time to run to the edge and your feral charge will be up every time for a quick leap back in to continue dps'ing. I always had time to make sure that I dumped my remaining energy once he started casting before running out to ensure I didn't energy cap before I got back onto him. If you feel like you might be late, dash is a great way to make sure you don't get hit.
4. Optimizing energy/combo points on target switches - There's nothing worse than watching your current target die and seeing your 5 CP disappear as you were waiting on 5 more energy to refresh your SR. Now you're opening up on a new target with no energy, no SR, and a LOT of downtime on your Rip. A little planning ahead and even preemptive target switching can make the transition quite a bit smoother. I try to get a good feel for the time left before the target will die, and I won't put a Rip up if a good portion of it will be wasted. Timing everything so that you refresh your SR with 5 points and have near a full energy bar on the switch isn't that difficult and will result in very little loss of dps on the switch.
5. Staying alive - This one's pretty much a no-brainer, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Barkskin in cat form is amazing, and if you can learn to expect the damage, you can really mitigate a lot of possible damage. On the Iron Council fight in particular, Steelbreaker's nature debuff can put a lot of strain on raid healing. If you get the debuff, a quick barkskin in addition to the 20% increased healing (if you are spec'd into it) will make your healers love you and will allow you to focus on your DPS rather than stressing about your low health.
I don't want this to seem like a guide for DPS'ing Iron Council hard mode, although it could easily be used for that as well. The basic concepts used in this fight can be applied to every fight we DPS on in the game, and hopefully these specific examples help illustrate the point. These are the "skills" that can put you on top of the DPS meters, even with sub-par gear.
Here are the WWS reports from last night: Wow Web Stats (Attempt 19 he was at 3% when a ranged died... would have been dead in the next couple of seconds)
My gear is mostly BiS pre-Ulduar with 2pT8.5, Twisted Visage with Mongoose (I'm usually a tank), emblem neck, Runed Ironhide boots, Waistguard of the Creator, and gemmed for Agility. I'm hit and expertise capped.
There's no doubt that the rogue tests were conclusive back in BT/Hyjal. I also agree that in some sense we under-report our movement needs. But we also over report them.
Having tanked razorscale in dps gear/bear form when one of our two tanks LD'd, i know first hand that you do not need a tank with run speed on their boots... I am never out of dps range on this fight. It moves...I move... we all move. Auraiya is a good example of a fight I am not sure how to evaluate run speed wise. We don't move around as much as you (lairpie) seem to, but I still may be (and probably am) losing more attacks than I think.
Using an ultra conservative 1 FB per minute at say 9k dmg gives you around 23 DPS attributed to the 15% portion of FA. Certainly not as much as the proposed 40 DPS that Allev sets forth, and I have no doubt that some of the fights 3 auto attacks per minute is an ultra conservative estimation of the benefits of swiftness. However, there are certainly fights where it is well over estimating the effect (for instance on XT, unless i have gravity/light or casters don't do their job on bots, I rarely move from the boss).
Basically for me, FB strikes me as a more static increase to my dps and, thus, I consider it to be a core dps talent, while movement speed is more up and down utility-wise (and, of course, things like NI/SI are pure utility that are only relevant if they are needed). That being said, I obviously see the value in the movement speed as I do drop my spare point into it.
There's no doubt that the rogue tests were conclusive back in BT/Hyjal. I also agree that in some sense we under-report our movement needs. But we also over report them.
Having tanked razorscale in dps gear/bear form when one of our two tanks LD'd, i know first hand that you do not need a tank with run speed on their boots... I am never out of dps range on this fight. It moves...I move... we all move. Auraiya is a good example of a fight I am not sure how to evaluate run speed wise. We don't move around as much as you (lairpie) seem to, but I still may be (and probably am) losing more attacks than I think.
Using an ultra conservative 1 FB per minute at say 9k dmg gives you around 23 DPS attributed to the 15% portion of FA. Certainly not as much as the proposed 40 DPS that Allev sets forth, and I have no doubt that some of the fights 3 auto attacks per minute is an ultra conservative estimation of the benefits of swiftness. However, there are certainly fights where it is well over estimating the effect (for instance on XT, unless i have gravity/light or casters don't do their job on bots, I rarely move from the boss).
Basically for me, FB strikes me as a more static increase to my dps and, thus, I consider it to be a core dps talent, while movement speed is more up and down utility-wise (and, of course, things like NI/SI are pure utility that are only relevant if they are needed). That being said, I obviously see the value in the movement speed as I do drop my spare point into it.
Obviously the value of run speed is there-- but we also have to be careful not to over-report FB uptime. I know that in my DPS cycle, it's the first thing I drop when things get hairy, and it also can either play a disproportionately large or disproportionately small role depending on the fight.
For instance, Razorscale. In the harpoon phase, do you manage a single rip? SR, rip, rip? On XT, do you try to refresh your rip before the heart disappears, or do you FB? (Does the damage count double? Does it on Mimiron P3?) On Hodir, do you use a strat where you get enough time on the Flash-frozen NPCs that you can get FBs on them? Same for adds on Freya-- do you have enough time to get bites in?
For me, FB is the first thing to go-- maybe that's because I don't have a mangle-bot, but, yeah.
On a different note-- anyone else find 2t6 on bracers not working yesterday on Kologarn? I haven't done the math yet to see if I'm losing energy and I didn't explicitly notice not getting the mangle discount, but I did a lot less DPS this week while wearing the 2-piece.
Obviously the value of run speed is there-- but we also have to be careful not to over-report FB uptime. I know that in my DPS cycle, it's the first thing I drop when things get hairy, and it also can either play a disproportionately large or disproportionately small role depending on the fight.
For instance, Razorscale. In the harpoon phase, do you manage a single rip? SR, rip, rip? On XT, do you try to refresh your rip before the heart disappears, or do you FB? (Does the damage count double? Does it on Mimiron P3?) On Hodir, do you use a strat where you get enough time on the Flash-frozen NPCs that you can get FBs on them? Same for adds on Freya-- do you have enough time to get bites in?
For me, FB is the first thing to go-- maybe that's because I don't have a mangle-bot, but, yeah.
On a different note-- anyone else find 2t6 on bracers not working yesterday on Kologarn? I haven't done the math yet to see if I'm losing energy and I didn't explicitly notice not getting the mangle discount, but I did a lot less DPS this week while wearing the 2-piece.
Some very fair questions and I agree FB "uptime" is very hard to quantify, which is why I picked a relatively conservative 1 per minute useage.
For the harpoon phase of razorscale I generally (assuming I can rely on other dpsers to interrupt) setup once the third harpoon is away to get a max sr up and then build to 5 cp. Then I will use swipe again till she is down, rip immediately, refresh sr right after then build up again trying to get 1 FB in and then refresh rip right when she does her KB (usually I can feral charge out of the knock back to get the 1 last hit before she is gone). Of course all of that depends on crits and the like... but generally its rip, sr, fb, rip. If I don't think Im gonna make it I drop the fb of course.
XT on the heart I usuaully save my beserk until the heart comes up the first time so I am pretty much rolling whatever I want there, but certainly at least 1 FB. I have assumed that it gets the same dmg modifier as everything else, but I have not at all checked. Hodir... is wierd. I can usually eyeball which NPC I can get on to be mostly by myself meaning I can FB, but in no way is that super reliable (and is probably only pseudo reliable because we have a lot of lazy melee who dont run around and do it).
Freya p2 is obviously just regular old FB when I can, p1 i very rarely if ever fb (occasionally at the end of one of water spirit or something when i have 5 cp up and dont need a SR refresher, but that is SUPER rare). I hate freya more than anything else so far.
I guess what we are both saying is it varies a lot depending on boss, and a lot of it will depend on feel and personal preference. Personally, my view thus far has been there is no boss where I am absolutely never FBing, but there are some bosses (for instance Kologarn) where I very rarely have to move at all.
Using an ultra conservative 1 FB per minute at say 9k dmg gives you around 23 DPS attributed to the 15% portion of FA. Certainly not as much as the proposed 40 DPS that Allev sets forth, and I have no doubt that some of the fights 3 auto attacks per minute is an ultra conservative estimation of the benefits of swiftness. However, there are certainly fights where it is well over estimating the effect (for instance on XT, unless i have gravity/light or casters don't do their job on bots, I rarely move from the boss).
You're evaluating just one point of feral aggression against run speed, not all five points. That's 5 dps according to your estimate.
At the end of the day it boils down to an incredibly useful talent that not only increases DPS, but also survivability. It is unique in that you can't get this elsewhere, no matter how much you upgrade your gear etc... this is restricted to a talent. The majority of fights the run speed already makes up for missing 1 point in FA and usually provides a greater DPS increase. You might get the odd Patchwerk like fight where it wont but almost every fight has a movement component. You also have to add into this that the movement is often to get to a critical DPS spot, or to move back in after an AoE attack.
There is also the issue mentioned above that any time your cycle is suffering for whatever reason, AoE, phase switches, target changes etc... FB is the first thing to go so the value you assigned to it is even further diminished.
So you are trading a fraction of a % in DPS on fights with no movement for such a massive utility talent on fights that matter. Its funny that you mention XT as well as a plus point for FB, try doing it on Hard Mode. Run speed really shines there when you get chain bombed which is quite often. Kologarn I just pretend doesn't exist because 1) he is so easy and 2) you can't even shred. I wouldn't bring that fight up as an example of anything for ferals. FB is a lot better there even because you are forced to use low energy moves so generate CP quicker than shredding (though doing vastly less dps). But as I said who cares, its a trash boss. On bosses that matter movement is a crucial aspect.
Hard Modes:
FL: N/A
XT: Lots of movement due to the constant bombs.
Council: Lots of movement between adds, out of runes (Depending on order), and overload.
Thorim: Probably least useful but still increases the speed when running to and from safe spots if he does lightning your way.
Hodir: Fair bit of movement between blocks. It can vary but its very useful when blocks spawn far apart/away from melee. Also moving back in from any cave ins you take.
Freya: Don't think I'm ever stationary in P1. Constant movement between trees, mushrooms, detonators.
Mimiron: Moving out of Shock Blasts in P1/4. Getting too adds/head in P3. Hard mode adds constant moving in P1 which often requires you to break melee with FL to safely move through a mine ring, kiting fires, P2 you often have to move out of the base if fires creep in whilst hes casting/spawning till he can extinguish around him again. You also get the odd Frost Bomb flinging you (bad play really but still). P3 even more movement than normal.
Vezax: Okay, this is the only fight where run speed increase isn't amazing.
Yogg-Saron: Invaluable. Quicker movement out of cloud orbits in P1 and between adds. P2 is just... constant movement between tentacles and portals. Quicker movement to constrictors. More time to get to sanity well and back if depending on mode. Quicker moving between tentacles and portals in brain which is invaluable.
So what I'm saying is on fights that matter run speed is not just a small DPS increase over a point in FB, it is vastly superior. Note on half of these you can't even FB a lot of the time on the adds, further increasing the gap.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I don't know how many times this needs to be said, FA is our weakest DPS talent, unless you are running with a 2nd Feral Druid for Mangle/ilotp, you are simply being selfish by taking FA over the other utility and functionality. I'm frankly appalled by Thaeryn's spec picking up NI and not FI or iLotP, the irony is that by dropping iLotP and taking FA and NI you're saying "I want to do max DPS, and I'm the only one that deserves to live" but then not taking FI because "ulduar isn't swipe friendly says "not only am I selfish, I don't actually know the first thing about Ulduar."
I know, everyone wants to be top DPS, but face it, unless your guild has terrible casters (like mine) you just need to embrace your position as the best AoE class to date (not even seed spamming locks had the sustainability, or survivability on aggro as we do)
I'm aware my current spec isn't perfect, I've got a mangle-bot 90% of the time and still take Imp Mangle, I take SI because I enjoy 200k hp in wintergrasp, but I'm not going to defend those choices as viable. The ideal feral DPS spec takes those 4 points I just mentioned, and puts them in FA. If you don't have a mangle-bot, then you're stuck with 2/5 FA. And just because I feel like bragging, I'm in the top 20 on 6 fights among druids with my 4 wasted points spec, and every single druid that's in the top 20 overall has 3/3 FI and only one has 5/5 FA as well. Anecdotal evidence is cute and all, but spreadsheets have shown that FA is weak, FS is strong, and FI as strong, actual meters back this up, why do you keep arguing it?
first question: where are you finding the top parse for ferals on certain encounters.
second question: I see many ferals that still use the shred idol when the rip one is readily available via badges. Do people find shred is a better idol for trash or small encounters because even on trash I assume they're pretty close but I havn't heard any anecdotal evidence either way.
third: Feral Aggression - another reiteration said by many. Fights usually see ~6% FB usage when possible, the dps comes closer to 7k on fights where FB is available (single dps targets). 6% of 7000 is 420 dps from FB, 15% of 420 is 63. One point in FB translates into 12.6 dps on fights where FB can typically be used.
question: I tried to find a swipe spot to cat-swipe the three limbs of Kologarn without luck. Can anyone offer opinions on a good spot - I hit the body and a single limb but never all three while searching. I realized the arms can be singled out standing directly in-front of the boss and targeting the one you want to dps allowing less movement then say, running directly under the arm.
Oh, a quick note going over some armories: The fishing dailies rewards drops several gems such as 20 agility. Contents of the daily reward as follows: [Bag of Fishing Treasures]
I don't know how many times this needs to be said, FA is our weakest DPS talent, unless you are running with a 2nd Feral Druid for Mangle/ilotp, you are simply being selfish by taking FA over the other utility and functionality. I'm frankly appalled by Thaeryn's spec picking up NI and not FI or iLotP, the irony is that by dropping iLotP and taking FA and NI you're saying "I want to do max DPS, and I'm the only one that deserves to live" but then not taking FI because "ulduar isn't swipe friendly says "not only am I selfish, I don't actually know the first thing about Ulduar."
I know, everyone wants to be top DPS, but face it, unless your guild has terrible casters (like mine) you just need to embrace your position as the best AoE class to date (not even seed spamming locks had the sustainability, or survivability on aggro as we do)
I'm aware my current spec isn't perfect, I've got a mangle-bot 90% of the time and still take Imp Mangle, I take SI because I enjoy 200k hp in wintergrasp, but I'm not going to defend those choices as viable. The ideal feral DPS spec takes those 4 points I just mentioned, and puts them in FA. If you don't have a mangle-bot, then you're stuck with 2/5 FA. And just because I feel like bragging, I'm in the top 20 on 6 fights among druids with my 4 wasted points spec, and every single druid that's in the top 20 overall has 3/3 FI and only one has 5/5 FA as well. Anecdotal evidence is cute and all, but spreadsheets have shown that FA is weak, FS is strong, and FI as strong, actual meters back this up, why do you keep arguing it?
I'll assume you are responding to me here as you ask why I keep arguing it. Instead of presuming that you are right, why don't you actually read my posts to see what it is I am actually saying. For the record, I run with 2 other feral druids. That being said, I have improved mangle in my spec so I'm not sure what that has to do with it. I have a mangle bot 100% of the time, but in his tank gear he isnt capped so (or he has issues pressing the mangle button) so I take it just in case it runs down to 3 seconds so I can work it into my rotation freely (lately we have also had a trauma bot which is nice). I also, as I pointed out previously, take full points in FI as I think it is a huge factor in several fights (freya, thorim, auriaiaiaiaiaiayayaya).
Imp lotp is always covered (though i would argue it is not a real meaningful contributor a la JoL). I am pure DPS. In my posts I have stated several times that I am looking at this as a pure DPS spec question. There is no doubt that FA is the weakest of the DPS talents that directly convert to DPS. The ONLY question, which I thought was clear, was about which is better for pure dps. And that, it appears, has boiled down to which is better the 2nd point in swiftness or the 5th in FA. As you can tell from this fullsome description, I am literally talking about just dps here. Some people, who have done me the courtesy to actually read what I have said, have made some compelling arguments, most particularly with respect to the hard modes which my guild has not gotten too into as of yet (as well as the point that we really should be comparing Nth points not the full talent).
I understand some of your angst was at Thaeryn's spec which I agree is not exactly one I would endorse, but it seems pretty clear that the rest of your post is directed at me... in that case I will simply point out that not only is your current spec not perfect, but your reading comprehension is pretty poor as well.
Anyway, for me the argument may be that when we get far into the hard modes I will lean further towards the 2nd point in swiftness.
first question: where are you finding the top parse for ferals on certain encounters.
I assume he is looking at wowmeteronline. Its useful to see where the topend is, though its a bit specious as not everyone uploads on to that site (for instance my razorscale last night would have been top 15 or so but you won't see me up there... I am sure if everyone in the wow world was up there my number wouldn't have cracked the top 200, forget about the top 20). Fun to flip through to see what people are doing and easier to navigate than wws.
Fair enough... but then what is the difference in number of attacks between 1 point in run speed and 2 points? Surely it isn't all 3 presumed attacks.
It will be different every fight depending on how much you have to run, possibly the differential between how fast your tank runs and how fast you run, and so on. But, the autoattacks aren't necessarily the only difference-- you can throw in energy regen if you don't run in, you get a higher uptime on bleeds depending if one fell off while you weren't on your target, you get more OoC procs from your autoattacks, and so on.
But, to answer this question, let's bust out math. You run at 88% speed of 2 points in FS if you only have 1 point (or boot enchant). To get an extra second of DPS time, the minimum TIME you need to be running (out of range of your target, towards your target) is 1/.12 = 8.33 seconds; each autoattack then happens 8.33*.8=6.67 seconds. For 3 autoattacks, you need to be running 20 seconds out of every minute. Reasonable estimate on some fights we're discussing (Yogg, Freya) but less reasonable on others.
Also note that one point of run speed seems wasted-- it doesn't stack with boot enchants, and a boot enchant sacrifices less damage than a talent point in most cases.
I'm assuming the following talent build, which should maximize DPS in a raid setting. I'm assuming that an arms warrior or bear tank is not available, and thus that Mangle is necessary and by extension, Improved Mangle worthwhile.
Obviously this isn't a hybrid build viable for tanking. A typical tank build would drop Feral Aggression and probably Master Shapeshifter in exchange for Feral Instinct, Thick Hide, and Protector of the Pack at a minimum.
As I understand it, the best DPS rotation for a cat with this spec is determined by a priority chain of ability use that works like this:
1. Keep up Rake
2. Keep up Mangle
3. If both are up, Shred for combo points
4. Use Tiger's Fury at 25 energy or less
5. Use OoC procs to Shred over a Rip/FB
6. Use only 5-CP finishers
7. Keep up Savage Roar
8. Keep up Rip
9. If Rip and SR are up and Rip has more than 4-5 seconds left, FB
10. Berserk on cooldown, ideally when at 80-90 energy with TF up
Is this approximately accurate? Is Mangle worth using over Shred with Imp. Mangle? With Imp. Mangle and 2pc Tier 6 (for a 29-energy Mangle)? Where do we go from here?
The cycle I've been settling into is basically to keep Mangle and Rake up and rotate 5-CP SR, Rip, and FB finishers. This is putting me in the top 5 of the DPS charts when I'm in full DPS gear and don't have to offtank anything during the fight. The cycle is a little tight and seems like it would be much smoother if I had somewhat more crit for extra CP generation. Any thoughts?
I figure we can use this thread for discussion and analysis of the cycle and optimization on the current models and simulators. Go nuts!
Im not sure how you intend to use beserk without putting points into it. The spec you linked did not include that talent.
So far, my highest cat dps has been from using shred for point build up, keeping up rake and mangle, and using savage roar. Correct me if i'm wrong, but shred takes priority over mangle, because rip is necesary to maximize cat dps. You also need to be hit capped.
It will be different every fight depending on how much you have to run, possibly the differential between how fast your tank runs and how fast you run, and so on. But, the autoattacks aren't necessarily the only difference-- you can throw in energy regen if you don't run in, you get a higher uptime on bleeds depending if one fell off while you weren't on your target, you get more OoC procs from your autoattacks, and so on.
But, to answer this question, let's bust out math. You run at 88% speed of 2 points in FS if you only have 1 point (or boot enchant). To get an extra second of DPS time, the minimum TIME you need to be running (out of range of your target, towards your target) is 1/.12 = 8.33 seconds; each autoattack then happens 8.33*.8=6.67 seconds. For 3 autoattacks, you need to be running 20 seconds out of every minute. Reasonable estimate on some fights we're discussing (Yogg, Freya) but less reasonable on others.
Also note that one point of run speed seems wasted-- it doesn't stack with boot enchants, and a boot enchant sacrifices less damage than a talent point in most cases.
Still thinking about the run speed math. While the pure math part of it appears correct, there's something there that seems fuzzy that I cant put my finger on. Something like on Freya you'd be running 20 seconds a minute easily, but youd have to divvy up the out of range running unevenly or something.
You make a pretty significant point in your first sentence. To fully value the run speed its not just autoattacks, but also ooc procs (the bleed uptime thing, while true, probably isnt a huge occurence on most fights). More maths
As for the boot enchant thing, I agree in principal, but for a pure dps spec when you are talking about the very last point, there are no other dps talents I could put that point into. So my choices would be a) 1 point in swiftness and a dps boot enchant or b) 1 point in a utility talent with no direct dps impact and a speed boot enchant. Obviously (a) would have a higher (though marginal) dps output than (b) with speed being equal (not that that at all impacts the whether speed is better than FA discussion).
Im not sure how you intend to use beserk without putting points into it. The spec you linked did not include that talent.
So far, my highest cat dps has been from using shred for point build up, keeping up rake and mangle, and using savage roar. Correct me if i'm wrong, but shred takes priority over mangle, because rip is necesary to maximize cat dps. You also need to be hit capped.
The post you quoted was from pre-3.1, and I'm sure it's loading old talent tree data (when there wasn't primal gore) into the new tree web page.
The second part of your post doesn't seem very coherent, but you don't need to be hit capped if you don't mess up when you miss, mangle and rake should be refreshed every time they're down (refreshing mangle a few seconds early is fine), and you should only shred when mangle is up because mangle increases shred's damage.
second question: I see many ferals that still use the shred idol when the rip one is readily available via badges. Do people find shred is a better idol for trash or small encounters because even on trash I assume they're pretty close but I havn't heard any anecdotal evidence either way.
Shred Idol is better DPS if you have a mangle bot and a small amount of ArPen.
05/14/09, 8:52 PM
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