Casting Rip or SR during Berserk is not a waste like FB is (at high energy), as they do not consume extra energy when used. The only time they would be a waste would be if you are clipping your Rip or refreshing SR when it has a long duration left, and that doesn't occur during the opening sequence.
I try to shred down to low energy (I don't mind if I am at 5cp, I keep shredding until I am at about 20 energy) then I ferocious bite. If I had a few lucky omen procs, then FB can often be my last attack under Berserk, if not, I can sometimes regen enough energy for 1 or 2 more shreds during berserk, leaving ample combo point generation time for the next Rip, this allows you to Rip at nearly 100 energy, basically gaurenteeing a FB on your next "cycle" following Berserk.
For the record, during normal play, I use a 4cp SR, 5cp Rip rotation, fitting in FBs where possible, but I like to use a 5cp SR during Berserk, because I am always wasting cps from shredding off excess energy anyway.
The thing is, if you're refreshing RIP and/or SR you're wasting energy anyway which could be used on shreds anyway, how is it any different from wasting energy on FB.
It's pretty much impossible to end up at 50-60 energy after berserk, if you've been utilising all 14 (13?) of your GCDs under berserk. In Boevi's example the 500 potential energy is all used up with 12 GCDS - and ends up with 5 spare. If you had two OOC procs that would put you at exactly 14 GCDS used and 5 energy at the end of berserk - to reach a point where you have 50-60 energy left you would need ANOTHER 3 OOC procs. So you would literally require 5 ooc procs during the duration of berserk to end up with that kind of energy.
Not 50-60 after berserk, more like in the last 6 seconds of it. Refreshing an SR/Rip instead of Shredding if you are abnormally high on energy (yes, this does happen) is worth the GCD only if it will prevent downtime on SR or Rip after the Berserk wears off. If you have 6 seconds left on berserk, are at 5CP, and have ~8 seconds left on both SR and Rip, rather then continuing to Shred OR FB'ing, you would refresh SR and work your way back up to 5CP and then refresh your Rip once it fell off. It's a matter of balancing your highest DPE abilities with your bleed/buff uptimes in order to maximize them.
If I've got 24 seconds on SR, 12 seconds on Rip, 6 seconds left of Berserk, at 5CP, and at 20 energy, then I'll bite and try to get 1 or 2 more shreds in before Berserk falls off.
None of these things are going to make or break a druids DPS on the meters... we're talking differences of 1-2%. For those interested in that 1-2% though, it's there.
EDIT: Side note... so far, my best streak is 5 clearcasted shreds in a row. Even THAT does happen. Sucks during a Berserk though because you just sit at energy cap and are effectively wasting the cooldown.
Thaeryn is mostly correct though, there's no way for what I posted to not have significant energy wasted on FB's energy drain, and requires your OOC procs and high crit to come at a very specific time during the berserk in order for it to work remotely well. I'm still of the opinion that FB's are better than extra shreds if you can manage low energy waste because of shreds causing CP waste (iirc 1cp = 1250 damage), but I'll revisit my own cycle sheet and see if I can improve it by adding Shreds. In the end, it comes down to gear, luck, and comfort with the use of FB during Berserk, I recommend it toward the end, especially on XT.
I am thinking, significantly, of saving Berserk for the 2nd Heart when not doing hard mode (obviously) because of excessive OOC procs during bloodlust.
Thaeryn is mostly correct though, there's no way for what I posted to not have significant energy wasted on FB's energy drain, and requires your OOC procs and high crit to come at a very specific time during the berserk in order for it to work remotely well. I'm still of the opinion that FB's are better than extra shreds if you can manage low energy waste because of shreds causing CP waste (iirc 1cp = 1250 damage), but I'll revisit my own cycle sheet and see if I can improve it by adding Shreds. In the end, it comes down to gear, luck, and comfort with the use of FB during Berserk, I recommend it toward the end, especially on XT.
I am thinking, significantly, of saving Berserk for the 2nd Heart when not doing hard mode (obviously) because of excessive OOC procs during bloodlust.
If you use berserk on the first heart, you can use it again on the 3rd heart if you are doing easy mode.
My guild uses heroism later sometimes..sometimes on first heart, I just like getting two berserks in.
My guild actually kills him fast enough that we have back to back heart phases. If you know you are only going to get one berserk in, and that you are not doing hardmode, your idea of saving it for the second heart seems plausible. If I were you, I'd try it out and see what effect it has on your dps overall is.
My guild actually kills him fast enough that we have back to back heart phases. If you know you are only going to get one berserk in, and that you are not doing hardmode, your idea of saving it for the second heart seems plausible. If I were you, I'd try it out and see what effect it has on your dps overall is.
I use berserk at the start of the fight and then on the third heart phase. Until the fight gets below 3 minutes this is the only way I can get two berserks in. I would expect that most guilds are already going through the heart phases too fast to get a berserk in on the first and third phases (we hit that point weeks ago). Even though you get less dps doing a berserk during a non-heart phase, it is better to use it twice than only once in the first or second heart phases.
I use berserk at the start of the fight and then on the third heart phase. Until the fight gets below 3 minutes this is the only way I can get two berserks in. I would expect that most guilds are already going through the heart phases too fast to get a berserk in on the first and third phases (we hit that point weeks ago). Even though you get less dps doing a berserk during a non-heart phase, it is better to use it twice than only once in the first or second heart phases.
This isn't true. The heart takes double damage, so all else equal 2 berserks (normal) = 1 berserk (heart). However, we also usually use shattering throw on heart phases increasing Shred damage even more. Of course, if dps is slow enough to use it on the third phase also it would be good. We normally kill it in the middle of the third heart though, so it might not even be a full duration. To avoid possibly missing the second berserk you're probably better off using it once on the heart.
This isn't true. The heart takes double damage, so all else equal 2 berserks (normal) = 1 berserk (heart). However, we also usually use shattering throw on heart phases increasing Shred damage even more. Of course, if dps is slow enough to use it on the third phase also it would be good. We normally kill it in the middle of the third heart though, so it might not even be a full duration. To avoid possibly missing the second berserk you're probably better off using it once on the heart.
What is not true? Maybe you misread what I wrote. We have not killed him during the third heart phase as yet so I get a full berserk on the third heart phase to go with the one I use at the start of the fight. If I wait for the first heart phase to use my berserk it is still on cooldown when he dies - so I get one normal berserk and one heart berserk this way. This was in response to people saying they used berserk on the first or second heart phases - which means they will only get to use it once during the fight most likely. We are typically killing him in the 3:50-3:55 range.
I really think you can't categorically say "FI is better for the raid" or "FA is better for the raid." It depends on your role in your guild, the composition of your raids, etc. If you raid as a full-time cat, I'd say it's reasonable to dual spec so you have FA in one and FI in the other. On boss encounters where my AOE damage might actually be useful, I'm usually tanking something, and my tank spec has FI anyway. My single-target DPS, on the other hand, is a big contribution on the hard modes my guild struggles with, so I choose to juice that in my cat spec instead.
I need some advice.
Tentacles on Yogg Saron, and Freya flowers.
What rotation you use?
Assume you cant use Shred because it too hard to find back of mobs.
I need some advice.
Tentacles on Yogg Saron, and Freya flowers.
What rotation you use?
Assume you cant use Shred because it too hard to find back of mobs.
I Use mangle spam, sometimes a rake if it might be worth it and ending with a SR if I need it, FB otherwise. The short fights have not much use for Rip and shred is often difficult. Basically you will get lucky if you can do anything of a rotation.
I need some advice.
Tentacles on Yogg Saron, and Freya flowers.
What rotation you use?
Assume you cant use Shred because it too hard to find back of mobs.
For the tentacles up top I take the time to find the rear to shred.
The ones in the brain room I hit once with mangle and a white hit or two. We run 5 to a side in Stormwind and Aspects room so after 8k damage we move on to the next one. In the Lich King's room I swipe my group of three.
I need some advice.
Tentacles on Yogg Saron, and Freya flowers.
What rotation you use?
Assume you cant use Shred because it too hard to find back of mobs.
Yogg Saron:
- Constrictor Tentacles (ones that grab people): Mangle & rake. They have low HP and need to be taken down ASAP.
- Corruptor Tentacles : Normal rotation (with mangle & bleed debuff applied first!)
- Tentacles in portals: Mangle & rake, Swipe on the groups of three.
Freya:
- Swipe on those little AoE flowers
- Normal rotation on the trio of big flowers (Snaplasher, ...)
Generally, if the mob has enough HP to Mangle -> Rake -> Shred to 5, do it.
I will often burn TF/Berserk on the trio (snaplasher, ancient water spirit, storm lasher), and not the Detonators. Killing 5 detonators at once tends to kill off some of our lower HP raiders and getting the trio down to 30% asap seems to compensate for having some people who are rather unaware of multi-mob health.
I mostly just raid with my guild, and when I do I always have 2 ways to ignore mangle in my rotation completely (arms warrior or bear tank, both having 90%+ attendance).
Faerie fire is used by either one of the two balance druids in my raid or the bear tank, so im ignoring that completely too.
1. Start off fight with either mangle and/or rake (depending on the tank/warrior), getting 2-3 cp for the SR.
2. Hit off a SR to start making real damage.
3. Shred up to 5 CP and also keeping rake up.
4. At 5 CP I use Rip, then shred 2-3 times (for the glyph) and hit SR again at 4 CP (probably at 0-3 sec left) while also keeping Rake up.
5. Then I pop up Tigers Fury to get energy, shredding/raking up to 5cp and use Rip if its fading off, repeating part 4.
6. This step is used fairly early in the fight as seen fit, by using Berserk to get extra damage through with shreds and perhaps a FB, while also keeping Rip and Rake up.
Sittng swiping for the mobs might help as long as threat is built on each of them. Also, depeding on what mob you are assigned to, you're a cat you gotta run around and use the advantage of speed you're gifted with. If you're good at it, you can actually run behind and shred a couple, and if you got nice damage. those crits are enough to make a good rotation start.
P3lim, You don't need to do a higher CP SR at the start, especially with your gear you can safely use the standard opener:
Mangle (or Rake if Mangle's up) - SR - Shred - TF - Berserk - Shred to 5cp - Rip - Refresh Rake and Shred to 5 CP - SR - Shred to 5 CP - FB (or keep shredding if there's plenty of time left on Berserk and you have more than 21 energy) - Refresh Rake and Shred to 5 CP - Rip - Normal Cycle from here.
My main atm is a protection warrior and I suggested to my guild that I wanted to change my main to a feral druid due the lack of feral druids and due the fact we have waaaaay too much tanks
Anyway, I never really raided much as feral, only done some pugs.. The higest dps I managed to get is 2.7k dps on patch HC, wich isnt much and I want to boost it up (a lot).
My rotation goes like this:
I usually start the fight with: Prowl < Pounce < Mangle < SR After that I try to keep Mangle up (if I need too and if there isnt an arms warrior around); so I try to keep Mangle, Rake, Rip (with 5 combo points) and SR with 1 combo points; I basically use TF whenever its off CD and I use Beserk if I proc my trinket and if Bloodlust is up. (with beserk my rotation changes though, just shredding like mad ^^)
I dont know if it's good or not ? What do you guys say ? I understood its hard to master feral dps but I want to do my very best.
Then for itemisation, what stats to aim for? Some druids say agility for bear tank and str for kittys? And what's the hit and expertise cap?
Xpr, most of your answers are answered in detail in this thread.
Just few points:
* Stack agi, once you have about 200-300 armor penetration from gear, regem and start stacking ArP like mad (and try to get Mjolnir Runestone / Grim Toll)
* Do not start in stealth with Pounce / Ravage. The energy you use on the opener would be effeciently used on shred (after you apply a bleed & mangle)
* Do not gem / enchant for expertise / hit cap. It's not important for ferals and you will get plenty of +hit form gear alone.
* Berserk outside Bloodlust. Bloodlust = a lot of haste = faster white attacks = more Clearcast procs. What's better - getting clearcast outside of the berserk giving you 42 energy for shred or getting it while berserking giving you ~21 energy, which you don't even need as you generaly won't run out of energy till the end of berserk?
* For itemisation, gear comparison and determining what gems/enchant are the best, use Rawr, it will help you a lot.
* Your talents depends on what you'll be doing. I recommend separate tanking and dps builds in dual spec. Trying to mix them together does not produce good results. If you want to use the linked talent spec for dps, consider dropping: Thick Hide, Primal Tenacity and Infected Wounds as these talents are worthless for dps. Majority of feral druids runs around in something like this or this. I prefer the second one.
Ok, thanks for the info. I'm going to do more research about it now.
But one more thing, what if there isn't a arms warr/dk/other feral druid and I have to keep mangle up all the time, how will it change my rotation?
Your "rotation" will remain primarily the same, only you will have to sacrifice a few shreds in order to keep up the mangle debuff. Its still a priority list of buffs/debuffs, only with one extra one.
and the DK doesn't provide Mangle/Trauma, only Arms warrior/feral druids.
Gurrshael, hi man, i basically agree with everything you said, but i have a question about hit/expertise. Won't be priority reaching hit/exp at cap ? Even gemming or enchanting on poor hit/exp gear ? I actually use a pvp trinket on pve just to be hit capped and gemmed/enchanted some pieces to get hit/exp cap. Any advices here ?
Gurrshael, hi man, i basically agree with everything you said, but i have a question about hit/expertise. Won't be priority reaching hit/exp at cap ? Even gemming or enchanting on poor hit/exp gear ? I actually use a pvp trinket on pve just to be hit capped and gemmed/enchanted some pieces to get hit/exp cap. Any advices here ?
It's important to be hit capped for casters. When they miss a spell, they lose mana and the time they spent casting the spell.
It's different with feral druids. When you miss/dodge/parry a shred/mangle/rake, the energy cost is refunded. In addition, with Primal precision you get refunded 80% of the cost of your finishers when they fail to land. Thus, the cost of a failed attack is not such an issue. Since all our attacks are instants and druids do not attack every GCD, the loss of one GCD is a minor issue too.
I am not saying that hit/exp is worthless. Missing attacks (especially finishers) can screw up your rotation, often in the worst imaginable time. Missing shred while berserking is not good either. These things happen and have some impact on your dps, but not to the extent that you have to be hit/exp capped.
If you are not satisfied with this description and require hard numbers to back it up (like i do :-D), feel free to read the thread for NightCrowler's simulation. It has been discussed there and the results from the simulation supports it.
Gurrshael, hi man, i basically agree with everything you said, but i have a question about hit/expertise. Won't be priority reaching hit/exp at cap ? Even gemming or enchanting on poor hit/exp gear ? I actually use a pvp trinket on pve just to be hit capped and gemmed/enchanted some pieces to get hit/exp cap. Any advices here ?
I wouldn't ever gem for Hit or expertise. If you're ~1% below cap you should be fine, and even then you can always use hit rating food. Hit rating should come naturally on most of your gear. Looking at your armory it seems you're capable of full clearing Naxx, Sarth, and Malygos, and have done so often; however it seems you have somehow avoided every major hit rating piece in the game. Also, your gear level just isn't really that optimal yet to begin gemming for max ArP, and gemming partially ArP and partially hit/expertise only hurts you more than it does anything.
Keep in mind you don't need to use all T7 pieces, when I was doing Naxx I only had 2 pieces for the set bonus. I used the Shoulders and Legs, and had 3 off-set pieces. Try going after these pieces:
[Strong-Handed Ring] drops from virtually every boss in 25 man Naxx [Surge Needle Ring] drops from 10 man Malygos, also BoE so you can buy it on the AH for a steep price.
[Grim Toll] is one of the best trinkets you can get ingame at the moment, until you can kill 10 man Thorim hard mode and/or 25 man Yogg Saron. The hit rating covers a good portion of your needs and the proc is almost neccessary for any essential feral DPS.
05/28/09, 8:40 PM
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