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12/07/08, 6:04 AM
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#62
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Crushridge (EU)
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One of the most annoying problem with cat dps rotation is it's complexity.
I've found on wowinterface this mod Whack : WoWInterface Downloads : Casting Bars and Cooldowns .
So far it work only for protpala I think it'll be really useful if the author generalize it to somehow support our rotations. |
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12/07/08, 10:54 AM
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#63
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by Monedula
You will find all other (more realistic values) to lie in between those 2 values.
The more AP you got, the better mangle becomes.
Note that the percentage has a logarithmic build and an unattainable hypothetical maximum 68.376% (2.25 * 1.3 * 1.2) / (2 * 1.2); meaning at low levels of AP mangle will scale a lot better! 1,000 AP extra at 4,000 AP will do a lot more for mangle then 1,000 AP extra at 8,000 AP.
My conclusion is: Mangle scales better with AP then shred.
Now am I wrong?
* In earlier posts it was about 83%, but that was DPE, not damage as a single hit. Though that scales the same way since the combopoints spent are the same.
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Emphasis (in bold) mine. 1000 AP will always provide the same DPS increase IN ABSOLUTE TERMS regardless of your current AP levels. Yes it will change how much of a % increase it provides as you increase in AP but thats the same for nearly all dps stats. Absolute damage increase is the simplest metric to use when looking at DPS stats rather than a % based one. Looking at your numbers you'll see that adding 1M AP gave much more absolute damage to shred than it did to Mangle.
Also your two comparisons at 0 AP and 1M AP are really comparing apples and oranges. When AP is low the primary contribution to the moves dps is the fixed values, whereas at high AP the primary contribution comes from the weapon damage/multiplier portion. Imagine for whatever reason Mangle had +1000 damage static portion. At 0 AP it would be doing MORE damage than shred. After I add 1M AP absolutely nothing would change in terms of how much absolute damage I gained. Sure the %s would be different but those %s are not terribly meaningful and worse somewhat confusing.
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12/07/08, 2:13 PM
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#64
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Vodka Drunkenski
Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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Originally Posted by o_o
One of the most annoying problem with cat dps rotation is it's complexity.
I've found on wowinterface this mod Whack : WoWInterface Downloads : Casting Bars and Cooldowns .
So far it work only for protpala I think it'll be really useful if the author generalize it to somehow support our rotations. |
I use Ellipsis and Power Auras and have no issue keeping track of my ability uptime. I'd recommend both of those programs as they're highly flexible and allow for visual and aural uptime indicators.
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12/07/08, 2:16 PM
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#65
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Vodka Drunkenski
Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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Originally Posted by seekerwind
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This is a log from our first week of Naxx, I've upgraded my gear substantially since then and I believe I was likely still using 4T6 and a handful of Sunwell items. Since then I've seen closer to 5k on Patchwerk, but unfortunately I've mostly been doing 25 man and end up tanking.
Week One Patchwerk - Feral
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12/07/08, 4:02 PM
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#66
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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Originally Posted by Duilliath
Interesting post, Raqtor.
Just swapped in the 2t6 bonus I'm still running with (didn't include the 4t6), which pumps up Mangle's DPE to 145.68 - rather closer to Shred. The added combo point generation (and the fact that you used a Shred idol) at this particular gear level really seems like a viable alternative. This is especially important to me currently, as I can't for the life of me find a Tank build that includes everything I want with regards to DPS, but I can manage to include Improved Mangle.
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It is worth considering if the lower energy cost on mangle really makes up for the large loss of damage from wearing old outdated tier 6 gear. Considering that all the better stats are increased 6% by SotF and 10% by blessing of kings. Attack power increased 10% by HotW and 40% by Savage Roar. Also the improved critical chance should be analyzed. When you crit you do not only deal double damage but an additional 10% from Predatory Instincts. Furthermore considering the extra combo points critical abilities give.
Wearing bad gear lowers the damage output of every single ability you use and every white hit you deal. Whatever talent build or "rotation" I have tried white damage have always been my biggest damage dealer. And white damage scales 100% with gear and is the damage that scales best with gear.
There are too many factors to realistically be able to make calculations on this though.
When making a talent spec for mangle spam it is worth considering that it creates more combo points. Especially when you get new gear that improves your critical chance. So in order to be effective you would have to use many Ferocious Bite's. It might then be wise to choose some Ferocious bite talents and the very best Ferocious Bite talent is Rend and Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft.
With those 5 points set you now have 72% of the important talents for a Shred build and only require 2 points in Shredding Attacks.
Yes blizzard is quite skilled at making it hard to make talent builds.
These are some of the considerations I made when finally coming up with this weird Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
What is most important for me is the tanking talents but I still wanted to be a descent damage dealer.
I would be very thankful for any advise on talent improvements.
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12/07/08, 5:32 PM
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#68
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Sistra
I'm impressed with the thoroughness of every aspects in this (and other) post. But it’s annoying to see the presumptions that are used about the players items.
If the cleaver people could restrict themselves to list assumptions about AP, Crit and hitratings, theise calculations and conclusions would be useful to so many more players.
I don’t have 2xT6 items to use, and I never will have. So weather or not mangle is better than shred given those items will remain irrelevant to me – and I guess 90% of the druid player base.
Glyphes can be acquired by anyone. Same goes for badge-items in time, and properly even Nax gear. But using pre-WotLK über items in the calculations, makes the fine work pretty irrelevant for most people.
Don’t get me wrong! I’m grateful for the work you are doing and the knowledge you are sharing.
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We talk about 2 piece t6 because it exists; same as the fact that Wolfshead helm (or something like that, a level 40 blue) was talked about so much when powershifting existed. Sure, Wolfshead helm is a bit easier to acquire than 2 piece t6 (although Im pretty sure you can pug sunwell now with ease, especially with people needing the achievements), the fact that the items exist makes it possible as part of the theorycrafting.
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12/07/08, 6:10 PM
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#69
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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Originally Posted by Raqtor
These are some of the considerations I made when finally coming up with this weird Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
What is most important for me is the tanking talents but I still wanted to be a descent damage dealer.
I would be very thankful for any advise on talent improvements. |
I have the same goal, be both viable tank and dps in raids. I created this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and so far i am quite happy with it. The only problem of this build is weaker AoE threat, but i am able to do 5mans with it, and in raids there are other tanks so its not a problem. The ability to tank anything and also be at the top of damage meters just by switching gear is very useful in 25mans.
It has all boss-tanking talents, and almost all damage talents. I skipped Predatory instinct to be able to get Master Shapeshifter. I estimate these talents to be similar in dmg increase, but MS also affects bear, and increased crit makes the rotation smoother. I didnt take Natural Precision, because in cat i am both hit and expertise capped without it, and in bear - my threat is not an issue so far.
In your build i dont understand why you take both shredding attacks and imp. mangle. Also Primal Tenacity does not fit well into PVE build. I'd at suggest to skip mangle and tenacity and take KotJ and Infected Wounds instead (in raids you will often tank without debuffer, and you will need attack speed debuff).
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12/07/08, 6:24 PM
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#70
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Inaiwae
I have the same goal, be both viable tank and dps in raids. I created this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and so far i am quite happy with it. The only problem of this build is weaker AoE threat, but i am able to do 5mans with it, and in raids there are other tanks so its not a problem. The ability to tank anything and also be at the top of damage meters just by switching gear is very useful in 25mans.
It has all boss-tanking talents, and almost all damage talents. I skipped Predatory instinct to be able to get Master Shapeshifter. I estimate these talents to be similar in dmg increase, but MS also affects bear, and increased crit makes the rotation smoother. I didnt take Natural Precision, because in cat i am both hit and expertise capped without it, and in bear - my threat is not an issue so far.
In your build i dont understand why you take both shredding attacks and imp. mangle. Also Primal Tenacity does not fit well into PVE build. I'd at suggest to skip mangle and tenacity and take KotJ and Infected Wounds instead (in raids you will often tank without debuffer, and you will need attack speed debuff). |
Honestly, I can understand why some wouldn't take imp Mangle, but I'm a fan of the reduced 6 energy. It also is a huge threat gain with the lower CD in bear. I can see how you'd do without it, but if you really wanted to maximize your DPS, you should take PI instead of IW. That's 10% increased crit damage, which given your crit rate is probably 45%+ in raids, is a huge damage increase.
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12/07/08, 7:45 PM
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#71
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
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Originally Posted by Valerian
1000 AP will always provide the same DPS increase IN ABSOLUTE TERMS regardless of your current AP levels. Yes it will change how much of a % increase it provides as you increase in AP but thats the same for nearly all dps stats. Absolute damage increase is the simplest metric to use when looking at DPS stats rather than a % based one. Looking at your numbers you'll see that adding 1M AP gave much more absolute damage to shred than it did to Mangle.
Also your two comparisons at 0 AP and 1M AP are really comparing apples and oranges. When AP is low the primary contribution to the moves dps is the fixed values, whereas at high AP the primary contribution comes from the weapon damage/multiplier portion. Imagine for whatever reason Mangle had +1000 damage static portion. At 0 AP it would be doing MORE damage than shred. After I add 1M AP absolutely nothing would change in terms of how much absolute damage I gained. Sure the %s would be different but those %s are not terribly meaningful and worse somewhat confusing.
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You made your point. Let me rephrase:
1,000 AP extra at 4,000 AP will do a lot more for mangle vs Shred then 1,000 AP extra at 8,000 AP.
I think it is unfortunate you didn't get that since the whole point of the post was on Mange vs Shred.
So judging from your answer, can I make the next conclusion:
Both definitions in my earlier post on scaling were correct!
The term "scaling" means what does the ability do when your stats (AP) increase.
Shred does more damage per AP then Mangle does. Thus Shred scales better.
However, when there is a discussion on one spell/ability vs an other (in this example: Mangle vs Shred) the above definition of scaling is something that is absolutely worthless to take into the discussion. You will have to define a new scaling. It is no longer: "How does Shred scale with more AP" & "How does Mangle scale with more AP"...
... the only valid question in that discussion is "How does Mangle scale vs shred with more AP".
So when talking about "scaling" be sure to use the correct definition of scaling depending on the topic/point you are trying to make.
Is that correct?
And then is this statement correct?: "On the discussion Mangle vs Shred: Mangle scales better."
PS: on 0 and 1M AP... That was my whole point! At low AP the basic damage has a higher influence then at high AP. And since that basic damage is lower for Mangle, Mangle will become better vs Shred when that basic damage becomes less and less valid. I can't understand how you can call that apples and oranges. AP is the same thing whether it is nothing or it is a whole bunch.
Last edited by Monedula : 12/07/08 at 7:54 PM.
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12/07/08, 8:10 PM
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#72
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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Originally Posted by kameelyan
Honestly, I can understand why some wouldn't take imp Mangle, but I'm a fan of the reduced 6 energy. It also is a huge threat gain with the lower CD in bear. I can see how you'd do without it, but if you really wanted to maximize your DPS, you should take PI instead of IW. That's 10% increased crit damage, which given your crit rate is probably 45%+ in raids, is a huge damage increase.
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I agree that PI is a loss, but i dont think its worth leaving out IW. If not for anything else then for Sartharion with drakes up, where i am the only one bashing the boss for a long time, and its the hardest encounter currently in game.
As for mangle, i cant find any talent that i'd give up for imp. mangle. For bear it would mean just slight dps increase as threat is not an issue. For cat the dps increase would be also very small, given that you mangle once per 18 seconds.
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12/07/08, 11:01 PM
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#73
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by Monedula
The term "scaling" means what does the ability do when your stats (AP) increase.
Shred does more damage per AP then Mangle does. Thus Shred scales better.
However, when there is a discussion on one spell/ability vs an other (in this example: Mangle vs Shred) the above definition of scaling is something that is absolutely worthless to take into the discussion. You will have to define a new scaling. It is no longer: "How does Shred scale with more AP" & "How does Mangle scale with more AP"...
... the only valid question in that discussion is "How does Mangle scale vs shred with more AP".
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I can't see how the supposed second type of scaling is in any way useful. I'm at X value of AP. I determine how much damage per energy mangle does and how much damage per energy shred does. I then increase my AP to X + Y. I check the same thing. I can then determine which is doing more damage. This is exactly the type of scaling that we generally look at.
Seeing that mangle is doing 65% of Shred's damage at one point and 68% at another doesn't seem at all useful. Can you elaborate on how you're using this other, comparative scaling definition? Cause if I use this method and conclude Mangle scales better, it doesn't really tell me I should use mangle since I still do more damage per energy if I use shred. So what can I take from this conclusion?
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12/08/08, 2:59 AM
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#74
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Azjol-Nerub
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Monedula,
I think your math is correct, and if you're comparing the two abilities relatively, Mangle does gain on Shred slightly early on. However, the asymptote (not logarithm) is approached very rapidly, even when looking at "reasonable" AP of 10-20k. Furthermore, in terms of DPE (which is our measure of efficiency), Mangle's DPE also becomes a larger percentage of Shred's DPE as AP scales up (with the same asymptote), but in absolute terms Shred continues to pull away. Since an asymptote exists, and Mangle never actually catches Shred, the relative values don't mean much. Good work on discovering that, though. It's nice to know we don't have to worry about a point where we switch from Shred to Mangle.
If Mangle scaled better than Shred without an asymptote, meaning it would actually pass Shred at some point, then we'd certainly be much more interested. Since it doesn't, I think Mangle vs. Shred has been sufficiently analyzed.
One of the theories I had earlier was that Mangle is better at lower crit percentages, and Shred becomes better as your crit percentage increases. After further mathing on my spreadsheet, I think this is correct.
Using my earlier formulas, the Shred "rotation" (remember, that was purely theoretical) evens itself out at 43% crit. The Mangle "rotation" even itself out about 34.5% crit. Since you need more attacks to generate 5 CP with a lower crit percentage, you want something that's more CPPE (combo points per energy), which Mangle provides. All of that is AP-independent, since crit and AP do not affect each other.
The other thing to keep in mind is we still don't have a reliable practical rotation, since we're so reactive to CP and debuff timers. I think the next thing to look at is the effects of letting Rip, Rake, and SR drop in various situations and determining more clear priorities. Obviously DPE gives the overall priorities, but if I have 4 CP toward a Rip and SR drops, do I Mangle or Shred for the 5th CP and then Rip w/o SR? Or do I Rip at 2-3 CP because I know SR is going to drop? Or do I use SR and build up for a Rip as the next finisher? Or do I hit SR at the 2-3 CP point, and have some downtime on Rip while I get another 5 CP?
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12/08/08, 3:17 AM
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#75
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Vodka Drunkenski
Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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Good post Racionen, the first time in my life I'm glad I know what an asymptote is...
I can see how folks would desire Mangle to outpace Shred, but if you're going for maximum DPS Shred will always butter your bread. I'm sitting at around 46% crit and 11000 AP raidbuffed and I'm seeing some pretty spectacular numbers out of Shred, especially with all the synergy it has with talents.
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